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Thread: can a LEO stop me amd ask for id for no reason

  1. #1
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    hello guys/gals'

    this isint really oc related but i was unsure of a cops ability to stop&id for no reason

    any way let me fill you ini was minding my own on my way to my friends shop i was on my bicycle and i didant break any laws to my knowlage at a red light i saw a LEO in a car next to meno big deal he looked at me and i smiled and gave a frendly nod the light changed i proceded on my way not even fully across the intersection lights and sirens (really only one or two whails) i looked back and he pointed me over to the sidewalk got out of his car and asked me to kneel hands on head i complied (gun not drawn but hand on top) cuffed me then asked me for my idand patted me down i asked if i broke any laws he said i hadent but he wanted to "make sure everything was ok"(i choose not to speak after that) after what seemed hours but really about 20 min id check came back clean he cut me loosei gatherd my wallet and such and went about my day pissed but did:Xshould i call and complain to the PDchief or whoever?:X

    any waycan cops do this( i think it was mainly my looks6 footwhite guy with tattoos' oh no)

    any howi needed to vent about this thanks for reading



  2. #2
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    helldiablo wrote:
    hello guys/gals'

    this isint really oc related but i was unsure of a cops ability to stop&id for no reason

    any way let me fill you ini was minding my own on my way to my friends shop i was on my bicycle and i didant break any laws to my knowlage at a red light i saw a LEO in a car next to meno big deal he looked at me and i smiled and gave a frendly nod the light changed i proceded on my way not even fully across the intersection lights and sirens (really only one or two whails) i looked back and he pointed me over to the sidewalk got out of his car and asked me to kneel hands on head i complied (gun not drawn but hand on top ) cuffed me then asked me for my idand patted me down i asked if i broke any laws he said i hadent but he wanted to "make sure everything was ok" (i choose not to speak after that) after what seemed hours but really about 20 min id check came back clean he cut me loosei gatherd my wallet and such and went about my day pissed but did:Xshould i call and complain to the PDchief or whoever?:X

    any waycan cops do this ( i think it was mainly my looks6 footwhite guy with tattoos' oh no)

    any howi needed to vent about this thanks for reading


    No, not without reasonable articulable suspicion that a crime has been or is about to be commited.

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    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
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  3. #3
    Regular Member wewd's Avatar
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    That sounds like a highly illegal stop. Was there any other reason you can think of why you may have been profiled? Did the cop say you looked like someone they were looking for?

    The police do not have the authority to demand ID (Kolender v Lawson) and they cannot search your person or property without reasonable articulable suspicion (Terry v Ohio). You may wish to contact the ACLU or other civil rights groups because your rights were certainly violated by this officer.
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    I'm not so sure about that, Condition3.It's my understanding that they can ask you for ID for no reason, but you're not required to provide it unless they have RAS. They can probably ask for a pizza too, but I'm going out on a limb and guessing that you don't need to provide that either.

    They're allowed to engage in conversation with as much authority as any average citizen with anybody they so choose. It just don't carry force without cause.

    Edit: I agree, your rights were probably violated with that, unless there was some underlying cause that you might not be aware of. Did you ask if you were free to go at any time? It's understandable if you got the impression that you weren't, obviously, but there's a big difference between him ASKING and him DEMANDING, in so far as the law sees it.


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    No state has stop and ID regulations. What he did is known as a "Terry stop", basically fishing for a crime that never happened.

    Terry stops are un-Constitutional by case law. Unreasonable search and illegal detainment.

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    Some States do have Stop and Identify Laws. These Laws give their Officers the ability to Stop someone in Public, and demand of them their Name, Address, or Birth Date, etc. to the sastisfaction of Law Enforcement, when said Stop and Seizure is based off a mere hunch, and far short of probable cause or reasonable articulable suspicion.

    However, California is one of about, 25 or so, States that does not have a bone-fide Stop and Identify Law.

    One is under no obligation to produce any Identification to an Officer in California, unless there is a specific State Law saying the contrary.

    An/E/example(s) would be: 1. Producing a Driver License in order to Drive a Motor Vehicle, or 2. Producing a License to sell Alcohol for consumption on-premesis, 3. etc.

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    The officer can "ask" for ID all he wants, and that is not illegal on his part. However he can not "demand" ID unless he believes you were involved in a specific crime that he can articulate. A 20 minute detention is not going to yield you any money in a suit, and the ACLU has bigger fish to fry, so forget that idea. If he thought you matched the description of some criminal he wanted , he should have given you the reason for your detention. If it is a non traffic offense, forget giving him your driver's license. That is why asking why he stopped you and if you are free to go upon initial contact is so important. He could just say he felt like shooting the breeze with you, and you never objected.

    I suggest a written citizen's complaint be made to his police department. Maybe the next time the officer has nothing to do and is bored, he will go have a few donuts, instead of screwing with you or someone else.

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    A LEO can ask anything he wants during a 'consentual encounter'

    If a LEO has Reasonable Articulable Suspicion (RAS) or Probable Cause (PC) they are under no obligation to provide it to you unless you are arrested.

    Unlawful detention of the OP...probably. However we have no way to know that with absolute certainty without a statement from the LEOs.

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    NightOwl wrote:
    I'm not so sure about that, Condition3.It's my understanding that they can ask you for ID for no reason, but you're not required to provide it unless they have RAS. They can probably ask for a pizza too, but I'm going out on a limb and guessing that you don't need to provide that either.
    Let's run through the OP's anecdote step by step.
    i looked back and he pointed me over to the sidewalk
    He is being detained, presumablyas a traffic stop.
    got out of his car and asked me to kneel hands on head i complied (gun not drawn but hand on top )
    The OP was no longer free to go based on the application of force- OP was under duress with the LEO placing his hand on the firearm.
    cuffed me
    Confirmation that the OP is not free to go. Being restrained, under any pretense, removes any doubt that the detainee cannot leave.



    then asked me for my idand patted me down
    This is where the LEO crossed the line, unless they had RAS. Some element making the actions or circumstances surrounding the OP suspicious would have to be articulated in order to justify the Terry pat down... (ie; partially visable weapon or other contraband, OP matched a description of criminal suspect, peculiar activity or time of day.) The request for ID is just that- a request-- unless the stop was in fact for a vehicle code violation. In that case, I would expect them to be specific as to the request of a driver's license and what code violation they had a concern about.

    i asked if i broke any laws he said i hadent but he wanted to "make sure everything was ok"
    The LEO could have checked to see "if everything was okay", by a voluntary contact, but chose to ratchet up the heat. It was at this point where the OP should have confirmed that they were free to go. No crime=No investigation.

    More people really need to watch Flex Your Rights videos, and develop the dialogue before they end up hooked up in the back of a patrol car.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    helldiablo wrote:
    hello guys/gals'

    this isint really oc related but i was unsure of a cops ability to stop&id for no reason

    any way let me fill you ini was minding my own on my way to my friends shop i was on my bicycle and i didant break any laws to my knowlage at a red light i saw a LEO in a car next to meno big deal he looked at me and i smiled and gave a frendly nod the light changed i proceded on my way not even fully across the intersection lights and sirens (really only one or two whails) i looked back and he pointed me over to the sidewalk got out of his car and asked me to kneel hands on head i complied (gun not drawn but hand on top ) cuffed me then asked me for my idand patted me down i asked if i broke any laws he said i hadent but he wanted to "make sure everything was ok" (i choose not to speak after that) after what seemed hours but really about 20 min id check came back clean he cut me loosei gatherd my wallet and such and went about my day pissed but did:Xshould i call and complain to the PDchief or whoever?:X

    any waycan cops do this ( i think it was mainly my looks6 footwhite guy with tattoos' oh no)

    any howi needed to vent about this thanks for reading

    If you were reallly wobbly on your bike he could have had suspicion you were drunk. You can get a dui for that or at the least a drunk in public.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    ConditionThree wrote:
    He is being detained, presumablyas a traffic stop.
    got out of his car and asked me to kneel hands on head i complied (gun not drawn but hand on top )
    The OP was no longer free to go based on the application of force- OP was under duress with the LEO placing his hand on the firearm.
    cuffed me
    Confirmation that the OP is not free to go. Being restrained, under any pretense, removes any doubt that the detainee cannot leave.
    Lacking RAS, the cop violates Terry and the fourth amendment as soon as he pulled helldiablo over. The police officer has seized helldiablo without any articulable reason. He violates Terry further when he tells him to kneel with his hands on his head (unless he really said, "Hey, do you think you could kneel down on your knees and put your hands on your head for me?"). He then cuffed and searched helldiablo, except he didn't just search for weapons as allowed if this Terry stop wasn't already illegal, he searched for his ID. Terry doesn't allow for searching a person for anything but weapons.

    Here is what happened in reality. You were pulled over for your tattoos. You were arrested for having tattoos. You were unarrested because you aren't a wanted person.

    Here is what the cop will likely say happened. You were pulled over because your bike was missing all the required reflectors. You were put in handcuffs for your own safety. Your ID was willingly handed over and was run to check if you had any wants and warrants. You were released with a verbal warning to put your missing reflectors on.

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    Regular Member leoffensive's Avatar
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    I have always read that your actually supposed to walk your bike at a crosswalk. Maybe that may have had something to do with it

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    While riding, you are subject to the CVC (California Vehicle Code), so it wouldn't be hard for him to claim you were violating one of the many laws governing night-time bike riding. In that case he can in fact stop you to investigate that infraction. Since you're now subject of an investigatory stop, you may be required to provide ID... if you have one... if you don't have one, and they do decide to cite/arrest you for an offense, then they can hold you until your identity is established (otherwise you could easily skip out on the ticket/arrest).

    However, I'm not sure cuffing you was justified. I'm not up to date on the case law for use of force and restraining. Especially when the cop admits he was not investigating a crime... but that's your word against his unless you have an audio recording.

    Further, even if investigating a crime, during a Terry Stop a patdown for weapons can occur ONLY when the officer reasonably suspects you are BOTH armed and presently dangerous.

    IMO you should file a formal complaint against the officer. He's violating rights on a whim, abusing power, and creating unnecessary liability for the city and department that you pay taxes to.

    I might suggest that you carry an audio recorder with you at all times, and have it running during your rides. We've heard from other members here that some departments make it a habit to repeatedly and systematically harass people for doing nothing more than being out and about at night.
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    leoffensive wrote:
    I have always read that your actually supposed to walk your bike at a crosswalk. Maybe that may have had something to do with it
    You have to walk your bike if you are crossing in a crosswalk. However, you are perfectly legal to ride through an intersection if you're using a bike lane or riding with the flow of traffic (e.g. in the right-most part of the driving lane).
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    Check this out:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes



    Keep in mind that even thoughCA doesn't have a S&I statute which complies with Hiibel at this time a county or city may still have one.



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    NightOwl wrote:
    Did you ask if you were free to go at any time? It's understandable if you got the impression that you weren't, obviously, but there's a big difference between him ASKING and him DEMANDING, in so far as the law sees it.
    As far as I'm concerned the handcuff on his wrists spoke all the demand he needed. He wasn't free to go.

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    ConditionThree wrote:
    helldiablo wrote:
    hello guys/gals'

    this isint really oc related but i was unsure of a cops ability to stop&id for no reason

    any way let me fill you ini was minding my own on my way to my friends shop i was on my bicycle and i didant break any laws to my knowlage at a red light i saw a LEO in a car next to meno big deal he looked at me and i smiled and gave a frendly nod the light changed i proceded on my way not even fully across the intersection lights and sirens (really only one or two whails) i looked back and he pointed me over to the sidewalk got out of his car and asked me to kneel hands on head i complied (gun not drawn but hand on top ) cuffed me then asked me for my idand patted me down i asked if i broke any laws he said i hadent but he wanted to "make sure everything was ok" (i choose not to speak after that) after what seemed hours but really about 20 min id check came back clean he cut me loosei gatherd my wallet and such and went about my day pissed but did:Xshould i call and complain to the PDchief or whoever?:X

    any waycan cops do this ( i think it was mainly my looks6 footwhite guy with tattoos' oh no)

    any howi needed to vent about this thanks for reading


    No, not without reasonable articulable suspicion that a crime has been or is about to be commited.
    I've been through this many times throughout the years with the Concord Police where I live. I've worked nights for years and always bike ride at night after work for exercise. I've been stopped on my bike off and on for 7 years without probable cause and yelled at many of times because I'm out late at night.

    I got really pissed off the last time which was in November. I asked the officer if I was being detained and he said yes. I then asked if I was free to go being that no crime has been committed then I was told to sit on the ground. This was the 1st time I stood up and started asking questions and standing up for my rights. The officer just kept getting pissed off with every question I asked and said I wasn't getting off to a good start with him. I just chilled out because he had a really bad attitude.

    So the following week I called our city council and filed a complaint with the city. Within an hour a Lt. called me back with the Concord Police. He was really cool but as usual I got some excuses as to why they stopped me. I asked him if his officers are legally allowed to stop me without probable cause and I didn't get a yes or no answer. A few days later this officers Sgt. called me and somewhat went to bat for me. He told me that anytime I have an issue with one of these police officers to contact their seargent. He too gave me some excuses but said he would talk to his officers in his district and I believe he did because it's been almost 2 months now and I haven't been stopped. They just drive on by now and mind their own business like they should be.


    They shouldn't be stopping and questioning you unless they actually seeyou committing a crime. I would definitely file a complaint against this police officer.

    Like the Sgt. told me. He said they need feedback from the community when their officers are doing something wrong that way it can be corrected. I have to give this Sgt.credit because so far they have backed off and haven't been bothering me so go ahead and file a complaint. It couldn't hurt. I'm sure you're not the only one this officer has done this to.

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    thanks for all the great input everyone im not tryin to make a lawsiut out of it i dont want any money or anything it just pissed me off i just think it was because i was on a lowrider bike and white w/tattoos (ohhh no) my genral size may have had something to do w/the cuffs (6ft2in 240lb white guy not fat) maybe the shaved head? i dunno any way thanks again (never got messed w/while oc my 2 .45's yet wierd huh) good day to everyone and always keep your wit about you my friends ...........Hell............



    p.s.- CARRY ON

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    No matter what an individual may think about the legality of a police detention I can only recommend compliance with orders. Feel free to not consent but DO comply. An officer may have information that reaches the level to allow a "Terry" investigative detention. Resistance however slight may violate 148 PC (resisting/delaying peace officer) and a greater level of resistance may constitute felony 69 PC (resisting peace officer with force).

    Such things as a report of shots fired in the area you are OCing in, you match the description of a suspect, a caller has articulated a crime (whether true of not) can all justify a detention for investigation.

    The place to challenge/investigate the reasons for the stop is afterwards and armed with information gathered from a PRAR (public records access request). Then you may initiate a formal complaint and or law suit if needed to resolve the Rights violation issues (if any).

    And EVERYONE whetherOCing or not should ALWAYS have a recording device to document the truth.That is currently the BEST tool with which to defendLiberty against those who would defile her.



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    cato wrote:
    No matter what an individual may think about the legality of a police detention I can only recommend compliance with orders. Feel free to not consent but DO comply. An officer may have information that reaches the level to allow a "Terry" investigative detention. Resistance however slight may violate 148 PC (resisting/delaying peace officer) and a greater level of resistance may constitute felony 69 PC (resisting peace officer with force).
    +1

    There is just about no way to know for sure during the detention whether the LEO has sufficient circumstances to provide RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) to justify your detention.

    You would have to know plenty of courtcases whereappeals courts ruled that such-and-such circumstances did or did not provide RAS. And,if there has never been a caseabout circumstances very much like yours,you would have to guess exactly correctly how the judge in your case will rule regarding whether the LEO had RAS.

    I am a big fan of, "Comply while politely refusing consent."

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    +1 to compliance (but not consent).

    Make it clear - verbally - that you don't consent, but never offer any physical resistance.

    And contrary to what some will say, the officer has NO legal obligation to inform you of his PC or RAS before detaining you, so don't think you don't have to comply until he explains himself.
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  23. #23
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    This is a great video to give you some tools to handle an encounter.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA
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  24. #24
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Don't carry I.D.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Don't carry I.D.
    Not a good idea when riding a bicycle. When an officer stops you for a violation and intends to give you a citation, he is required to identify you so that he does not give you a ticket in someone else’s name (like if you lied and gave your best friends name). Failure to ID you properly can put another innocent person (the person who's name you gave) in a real bad spot when the warrant comes you out (if your a big enough jerk to give another persons name, you are not the type of person that will take care of the ticket).

    To prevent this, an officer can and probably will detain you for 40302 CVC and take you to the station for positive identification through fingerprints or another reliable source.

    By not carrying ID, You have just turned a 5 minute detention into a 2-3 hours detention and you probably will be released from the station, not taken back to where you were initially detained.

    CVC40302 reads,

    Whenever any person is arrested for any violation of this
    code, not declared to be a felony, the arrested person shall be taken
    without unnecessary delay before a magistrate within the county in
    which the offense charged is alleged to have been committed and who
    has jurisdiction of the offense and is nearest or most accessible
    with reference to the place where the arrest is made in any of the
    following cases:
    (a) When the person arrested fails to present his driver's license
    or other satisfactory evidence of his identity for examination.

    (b) When the person arrested refuses to give his written promise
    to appear in court.
    (c) When the person arrested demands an immediate appearance
    before a magistrate.
    (d) When the person arrested is charged with violating Section
    23152.

    To be clear, once you are properly identified, you no longer have to be taken "without unnecessary delay to a magistrate".

    This is also one of the dangers of "sterile carry". It's all good until you commit a violation of the law (Such as jay walking or littering").




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