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Thread: National Park Carry

  1. #1
    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    I believe the date for National Park carry legalizationis February 20th. Can anyone point me to the rules from the National Park Service or anyone else? I haven't been able to find anything from them. Will open carry be legal? What about long guns? What's considered a federal building and what's not ina park? Can one go to the restroom while carrying? What aboutlodges and restaurants inthe national parks that have them? I heard that the state CC and OC rules will apply, but have not seen anything in writing.

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    Can I add a question too?

    Does reciprocity cover National Parks carry?

    Say I have a NH non-res which is valid in PA, would that cover me if I carry at Gettysburg?

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    The actual text wasn't published the last time I checked, but I did see a preliminary copy. You may carry in any manner that is legal in the state in which the park resides.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Here's the pertinent text:
    (b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System- The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if--
    (1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and

    (2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.

  6. #6
    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    Thanks TFred. This means to me that one can OC or CC in Virginia, and one can even OC a long gun if they choose to do so. I also understand that you can also carry in any other state's national park as long as you can carry in that state.

    My understanding is that a federal building (where you can't carry)is a location where federal employees regularly work, so it would include places like park offices, but not the standalone restroom facilities, etc.

    I wonder if we will ever see an official statement from the National Park Service? I would love to start exploring Virginia's national parks in the spring and would prefer to have something in writing just in case I run across an overzealous park ranger.



  7. #7
    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    I went to the NPS page again today and to my surprise the "Weapons Regulations" link was not working. Perhaps they are working on updating the infromation to reflect the new law changes.

    I decided to drop them a little note of encouragement which reads as follows:

    Dear NPS Representative,

    I wanted to advise you that your "Weapons Regulations" link is not working at this time. My reason for visiting this page is to research the changes to your regulations for possessing and carrying firearms on park property in response to H.R. 627, which in part reads as follows:

    "(b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System- The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if--
    (1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and
    (2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located."


    As I understand, the new rules will come into effect in February. As my intent is to always be in full compliance with the NPS rules and regulations, please advise where/when I can obtain the text of these new rules. When will they be available on the nps.gov web site?

    Thank you.

    Respectfully,

    (name deleted)
    (email deleted)


  8. #8
    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Anybody interested in a National Park OC event/walk/hike???
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

  9. #9
    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    Sure, the back of myfarm borders on the Manassas Battlefield Park (but open to others too) and I just bought a light 44 Magnum (S&W 329PD) specifically for hiking purposes. Just as long as it's not 25 degrees outside.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Be forewarned ! The date for carry on NPS lands is NOT 2/20/10

    The correct date is Feb 22nd, 2010.

    Upcoming VaAlert will cover that.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  11. #11
    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Be forewarned ! The date for carry on NPS lands is NOT 2/20/10

    The correct date is Feb 22nd, 2010.

    Upcoming VaAlert will cover that.

    Yata hey
    Thanks. Yes I know, and it's my birthday too. Too bad it's a weekday and I have to go to work.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    gis wrote:
    I believe the date for National Park carry legalizationis February 20th.
    The law becomes effective February 22, exactly nine (9) months after the date of enactment of CREDIT CARD ACCOUNTABILITY RESPONSIBILITY AND DISCLOSURE ACT OF 2009



  13. #13
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    National Park Carry FAQ

    Q: When does this new law take effect?
    A: 12:01am February 22, 2010

    However, it is strongly recommended that you give it 12-24 hours of “buffer time” before exercising your right to carry.



    Q: Is the new law for Concealed or Open carry?
    A: It depends on your state laws.

    The relevant section (612) of HR627/PubLaw 111-24 states
    “The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if
    (1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and
    (2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.
    In short, this means that the rules and restrictions are now the same as they would be anywhere else in the state.

    So in Virginia, for example, if it is legal for you to own/possess a firearm, it would be legal to Open carry, and also to Concealed carry (with a valid CCW permit) that firearm. In some parks (Yellowstone) that cross multiple boundaries you also need to be aware of WHERE you are.



    Q: What about information stations and concession stands?
    A: Any restricted federal buildings must be clearly posted as such.

    The interior of a federal building (this includes any rest stops, information centers, and concession stands bearing the National Park Service logo) falls under Title 18, Sec 930 “Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities” ( http://tinyurl.com/yg2zhwb )
    However, Title 18, Sec 930 does stipulate the following
    (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each
    public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility.

    So there shouldn’t be any confusion as restricted buildings MUST BY LAW be “posted conspicuously” that weapons are not permitted. If it’s not posted, it’s not restricted (Unless you have been notified by an authorized person and asked to leave because then you've had "actual notice" under subsection H...<sigh&gt.



    Q: What if I am confronted by a park official who doesn’t know the new law?
    A: Co-operate with the park official and lodge an official complaint later.

    If you are confronted by a park official who does not seem to know the changes in the law it is not unreasonable to ask if they are aware of the changes in the law, however you should cooperate fully with any instructions/directions from that park official while at the same time trying to collect enough information (name, rank, position, title, badge#) to enable you to lodge a formal complaint later.

    However, if a park official asks you to leave a building (even one without a sign) you should do so without delay (see the note about "subsection H" above).





    -------------------The boring details if you want them--------------------

    Relevant Text from HR627/PubLaw 111-24 Section (512) “Protecting Americans From Violent Crime”
    Available online at http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:h.r.00627:

    [DOCID: publ024.111]
    CREDIT CARD ACCOUNTABILITY RESPONSIBILITY AND DISCLOSURE ACT OF 2009
    HR 627 become Public Law 111-24
    111th Congress

    SEC. 512. <<NOTE: 16 USC 1a-7b.>>
    PROTECTING AMERICANS FROM VIOLENT CRIME.
    Approved May 22, 2009.

    (a) Congressional Findings.--Congress finds the following:

    (1) The Second Amendment to the Constitution provides that “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed”.

    (2) Section 2.4(a)(1) of title 36, Code of Federal Regulations, provides that ``except as otherwise provided in this section and parts 7 (special regulations) and 13 (Alaska regulations), the following are prohibited: (i) Possessing a weapon, trap or net (ii) Carrying a weapon, trap or net (iii) Using a weapon, trap or net''.

    (3) Section 27.42 of title 50, Code of Federal Regulations, provides that, except in special circumstances, citizens of the United States may not ``possess, use, or transport firearms on national wildlife refuges'' of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service.

    (4) The regulations described in paragraphs (2) and (3) prevent individuals complying with Federal and State laws from exercising the second amendment rights of the individuals while at units of--
    (A) the National Park System; and
    (B) the National Wildlife Refuge System.

    (5) The existence of different laws relating to the transportation and possession of firearms at different units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System entrapped law-abiding gun owners while at units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System.

    (6) Although the Bush administration issued new regulations relating to the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens in units of the National Park System and National Wildlife Refuge System that went into effect on January 9, 2009--
    (A) on March 19, 2009, the United States District Court for the District of Columbia granted a preliminary injunction with respect to the implementation and enforcement of the new regulations; and
    (B) the new regulations--
    (i) are under review by the administration; and
    (ii) may be altered.

    (7) Congress needs to weigh in on the new regulations to ensure that unelected bureaucrats and judges cannot again override the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens on 83,600,000 acres of National Park System land and 90,790,000 acres of land under the jurisdiction of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service.

    (8) The Federal laws should make it clear that the second amendment rights of an individual at a unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System should not be infringed.
    (b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System.--The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if--
    (1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and
    (2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    LEGISLATIVE HISTORY--H.R. 627 (S. 414):
    HOUSE REPORTS: No. 111-88 (Comm. on Financial Services).
    SENATE REPORTS: No. 111-16 accompanying S. 414 (Comm. on Banking,
    Housing, and Urban Affairs).
    CONGRESSIONAL RECORD, Vol. 155 (2009):
    Apr. 29, 30, considered and passed House.
    May 11-14, 19, considered and passed Senate, amended.
    May 20, House concurred in Senate amendment.
    DAILY COMPILATION OF PRESIDENTIAL DOCUMENTS (2009):
    May 22, Presidential remarks.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Relevant Text from Title 18, Sec 930
    “Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities”
    ( http://tinyurl.com/yg2zhwb )
    TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
    PART I--CRIMES
    CHAPTER 44--FIREARMS
    Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly
    possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in
    a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to
    do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1
    year, or both.
    (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be
    used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be
    present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or
    attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not
    more than 5 years, or both.
    (c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of
    subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal
    facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or
    attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided
    in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to--
    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer,
    agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political
    subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or
    supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution
    of any violation of law;
    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a
    Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession
    is authorized by law; or
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons
    in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

    (e)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly
    possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court facility,
    or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not
    more than 2 years, or both.
    (2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in
    paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
    (f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the
    United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders
    regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within
    any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any
    grounds appurtenant to such building.
    (g) As used in this section:
    (1) The term ``Federal facility'' means a building or part
    thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal
    employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their
    official duties.
    (2) The term ``dangerous weapon'' means a weapon, device,
    instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is
    used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily
    injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a
    blade of less than 2\1/2\ inches in length.
    (3) The term ``Federal court facility'' means the courtroom,
    judges' chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney
    conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court
    clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal,
    probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court
    of the United States.

    (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be
    posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility,
    and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each
    public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be
    convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a
    Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility,
    unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the
    case may be.

  14. #14
    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    swinokur wrote:
    National Park Carry FAQ ....

    Could you you please post a link to the Q&A. If this is from the NPS web site, I am just not seeng it. What is the source?

    On the NPS web site there is a "Weapons Regulations" link on the http://www.nps.gov/contacts.htm, but as soon as you click on it, it takes you to

    http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...dno=36;cc=ecfr

    When I started this tread, it wasn't working at all.

  15. #15
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    The source was a post on ThehighrRoad.us. I should have stated this when I posted. I cannot guarantee it's accuracy or validity however.

    it seems legit however

  16. #16
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    swinokur wrote:
    The source was a post on ThehighrRoad.us. I should have stated this when I posted. I cannot guarantee it's accuracy or validity however.

    it seems legit however
    From the information I could gather from Google, this FAQ was first posted on two message forums within an hour on Wednesday morning. The original posts were on The Firing Line, and The High Road .us. The author of both posts is ZeSpectre, who is labeled as a Moderator on THR.us and as a Senior Member on TFL.

    Neither of these posts cite a source, but nobody has asked for one. At this point, barring evidence to the contrary, I would assume that the poster ZeSpectre is the author.

    Numerous other forums and web sites have since re-posted the FAQ.

    TFred


  17. #17
    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    swinokur wrote:
    The source was a post on ThehighrRoad.us. I should have stated this when I posted. I cannot guarantee it's accuracy or validity however.

    it seems legit however
    Thanks a lot. I kinda figured that it didn't come from th NPS. I have been emailing back and forth with NPS trying to get a written statement from them. Will see how successful I am. I just want to have something directly from NPS stating that it's legal, when I start carrying in national parks. I am new to Virginia, and myproperty borders on the Manassas Battlefield Park. Neighbors tell me that some of the park rangers are great guys,but others aren't so great. I would like to start walking there in the springandwant to be able to carry, like I do everywhere else. Also looking forward to exploring the Shenandoah.

  18. #18
    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    plus 1 on Shenandoah

    Mind posting a copy if you get a response from the NPS?
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

  19. #19
    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    t33j wrote:
    plus 1 on Shenandoah

    Mind posting a copy if you get a response from the NPS?
    Will do, if I get it.

  20. #20
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    I was planning to have lunch at Big Meadows on Feb. 27 - then I checked the schedule - they don't open until May 20.

    http://www.nps.gov/shen/planyourvisi...g-schedule.htm
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    I can wait til May. Won't have to wade through snow then!



  22. #22
    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    I hiked through there at about this time last year... way too cold. That was the quietest place I have ever been. Dead calm, no wind... just silence.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

  23. #23
    Regular Member altajava's Avatar
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    It took me a while but I figured out where I'm going to carry on Feb. 22. It is time for me to go back to the Marine Corps Memorial to pay my respects!
    Does any one know if the Air Force Memorial is part of the park service or part of the annex?

  24. #24
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    t33j wrote:
    I hiked through there at about this time last year... way too cold. That was the quietest place I have ever been. Dead calm, no wind... just silence.
    Oh you really need to hike while there is a big snowstorm going on. The silence in the forest is stunning! It's almost spiritual walking through that and sitting around a campfire all nice and warm while the snow falls..... :^).

  25. #25
    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Neplusultra wrote:
    t33j wrote:
    I hiked through there at about this time last year... way too cold. That was the quietest place I have ever been. Dead calm, no wind... just silence.
    Oh you really need to hike while there is a big snowstorm going on.Â* The silence in the forest is stunning!Â* It's almost spiritual walking through that and sitting around a campfire all nice and warm while the snow falls..... :^).
    I'd love to, and can only imagine how beautiful that'd be.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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