Open Carry on personal property and relocating

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I have always kept my handguns registered onto my brothers pistol permit,it states myself as owner and my brother with pemission to hold or carry. Igot it through the issueing facility (county clerk,signed by the county judge) it is 100% legal for someone else to have your guns listed on their permit. I had an issue 3yrs ago a drinking&driving violation,no guns involved or with me the judge automatically suspended my permit for 6 months. If I hadnt had my brother listed they would have been held by the county until I made arrangements to have them placed elsewhere. If you send them to NY to an FFL he and your selected individual should be able to take care of the rest. Hope this helped

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Danny-L wrote:

I have always kept my handguns registered onto my brothers pistol permit,it states myself as owner and my brother with pemission to hold or carry. Igot it through the issueing facility (county clerk,signed by the county judge) it is 100% legal for someone else to have your guns listed on their permit. I had an issue 3yrs ago a drinking&driving violation,no guns involved or with me the judge automatically suspended my permit for 6 months. If I hadnt had my brother listed they would have been held by the county until I made arrangements to have them placed elsewhere. If you send them to NY to an FFL he and your selected individual should be able to take care of the rest. Hope this helped

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Still do not see how this conviction would effect your right/permission to own or possess guns. They are "registered" to you, so why could you not retain them and just not carry?

Yata hey

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Through my lawyer I found out that a judge can suspend or revoke a nys pistol permit at any time for no reason,its not right but the way it is. Our judge,told to me by state troopers he is anti-gun and will exercise every right within his power to take them away. Since then I found out that at the time my permit was suspended if my wife or anyone else living with me had a permit with my pistols listed on them they would be able to remain in my house. Try to figure that one out is like trying to figure out why a county judge like this was elected into his position in the first place,considering the majority of northern new yorkers all have guns. With all said I didnt loose my drivers licence,figure that one too.

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Grapeshot wrote:

Danny-L wrote:

I have always kept my handguns registered onto my brothers pistol permit,it states myself as owner and my brother with pemission to hold or carry. Igot it through the issueing facility (county clerk,signed by the county judge) it is 100% legal for someone else to have your guns listed on their permit. I had an issue 3yrs ago a drinking&driving violation,no guns involved or with me the judge automatically suspended my permit for 6 months. If I hadnt had my brother listed they would have been held by the county until I made arrangements to have them placed elsewhere. If you send them to NY to an FFL he and your selected individual should be able to take care of the rest. Hope this helped

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Still do not see how this conviction would effect your right/permission to own or possess guns. They are "registered" to you, so why could you not retain them and just not carry?

Yata hey

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Because NY's permit isn't really a carry permit. Its more like a posession permit or ownership license. If you lose your permit its illegal to posess any handguns, even in your home.

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Leverdude wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

Danny-L wrote:

I have always kept my handguns registered onto my brothers pistol permit,it states myself as owner and my brother with pemission to hold or carry. Igot it through the issueing facility (county clerk,signed by the county judge) it is 100% legal for someone else to have your guns listed on their permit. I had an issue 3yrs ago a drinking&driving violation,no guns involved or with me the judge automatically suspended my permit for 6 months. If I hadnt had my brother listed they would have been held by the county until I made arrangements to have them placed elsewhere. If you send them to NY to an FFL he and your selected individual should be able to take care of the rest. Hope this helped

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Still do not see how this conviction would effect your right/permission to own or possess guns. They are "registered" to you, so why could you not retain them and just not carry?

Yata hey

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Because NY's permit isn't really a carry permit. Its more like a posession permit or ownership license. If you lose your permit its illegal to posess any handguns, even in your home.

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Appreciate the clarification. Another reason I don't like the NY gun laws.

Yata hey

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Homerfire...you couldn't be more wrong. NY State law (Penal Codes 400 and 265) expressly forbids open carry anywhere unless you are a federal agent, LEO, etc. The exact wording is:

Penal Code 265, Sec 17, paragraph (b): "Serious Offense means any of the following offenses defined in the penal law: illegally using, carrying or possessing a pistol or other dangerous weapon;"

Penal Law 400.00, Paragraph 2 *Types of Licenses*, section (f) "A license for a pistol or revolver, other than an assault weapon or a disguised gun, shall be issued to have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof;"

State law expressly mandates concealed carry, period. Penal Law 400 states that the only legal method is concealed carry, and penal code 250 says that it is a crime to carry in an illegal manner. Therefore, carrying open anywhere in NY, regardless of private property or not, is illegal.

Being that you cannot even *touch* a handgun in NYS (even in a store) without being duly licensed in NYS and you cannot have, on your person, a handgun unless said handgun is registered and the serial number, make, model, and caliber are listed on your license, if you go around with an openly holstered handgun even on your own property, you can and will be charged with a crime in NYS.

homerfire232 wrote:

I think you are incorrect about open carry on your own property, please see the following laws regarding;

Section 16-246 Brandishing a weapon.



[align=left][size=    (a)     A person commits the offense of brandishing a weapon when  ][/size][size= the person][/size][size=  exhibit][/size][size= s][/size][size=  any deadly or dangerous weapon in a rude, angry or threatening manner to any person in the city or go][/size][size= es][/size][size=  into any courthouse, church, school or any other public meeting carrying a deadly or dangerous weapon.][/size][/align]

 

[align=justify][size=    (b)     For the purposes of this section, the term "deadly or dangerous weapon" ][/size][size=means any weapon other than a firearm, from which a shot, readily capable of producing death or serious physical injury, may be discharged, or a knife, dagger, billy, blackjack or metal knuckles][/size][size= .][/size][/align]

 

[align=justify][size=    (c) The provisions of this section shall not apply to police officers and other officers or persons whose duty it is to execute process or warrants or to make arrests.][/size][/align]

 

[align=justify][size=    (d) The crime of brandishing a weapon is a class A misdemeanor.][/size][/align]

 

[align=justify][size=(Code 1964, § 7.1170; Ord. No. 018042, § 1, 4-19-04)][/size][/align]
 

 

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Being that there are so many hunters in northern ny the law doesnt enforce the no open carry,we carry as we choose but use common sense.

Danny-L said:

Being that there are so many hunters in northern ny the law doesnt enforce the no open carry,we carry as we choose but use common sense.

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Just curious if you live in NNY and if so what county? I live in St. Law. Co. and wouldn't advised open carry to anyone. Despite "all the hunters" in NNY we have some of the worst gun rights laws in the nation.

An example:
My wife and I just bought new pistols. We went to the gunshop. He had to do a NICS check. We had to make out a full sheet of personal info. He gave us a copy to take to the County Clerk. Drove to the Court House. County Clerk amended our licenses. Paid for amendments to licenses. County Clerk gave us a "coupon" to take back to the gunshop. Drive back to the gunshop with the "coupon" saying it was OK to give us the pistol. Finally received the pistol and went home.

We had to go through all of this EVEN THOUGH we both have ALREADY had extensive background checks, character references, paid over $100 each for finger prints and forms, and received and posses a license to carry in NYS.
:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Danny-L said:

Being that there are so many hunters in northern ny the law doesnt enforce the no open carry,we carry as we choose but use common sense.

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This is a recipe for disaster. Enforcement may vary from county to county, but the law remains the same. Considering that hunting seasons don't last "all year", this is a flimsy "excuse" at best.

redlegagent said:

This is a recipe for disaster. Enforcement may vary from county to county, but the law remains the same. Considering that hunting seasons don't last "all year", this is a flimsy "excuse" at best.

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I agree 100%. NY's gun laws are strict because the majority of the people don't like guns, so there sure as heck don't want to see people walking around with them open.

DragonLW said:

Homerfire...you couldn't be more wrong. NY State law (Penal Codes 400 and 265) expressly forbids open carry anywhere unless you are a federal agent, LEO, etc. The exact wording is:

Penal Code 265, Sec 17, paragraph (b): "Serious Offense means any of the following offenses defined in the penal law: illegally using, carrying or possessing a pistol or other dangerous weapon;"

Penal Law 400.00, Paragraph 2 *Types of Licenses*, section (f) "A license for a pistol or revolver, other than an assault weapon or a disguised gun, shall be issued to have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof;"

State law expressly mandates concealed carry, period. Penal Law 400 states that the only legal method is concealed carry, and penal code 250 says that it is a crime to carry in an illegal manner. Therefore, carrying open anywhere in NY, regardless of private property or not, is illegal.

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Thats not what that says...."illegally carrying" doesn't automatically equate to "carrying with a license but not concealed".


The licensing statute does state "have and carry concealed" but if I was forced to argue the point I would assert that expressio unius est exclusio alterius doesn't apply here. That is, just because it permits concealed carry doesn't mean that it excludes open carry. "Have," as an alternative to concealed carry is also problematic, if "have" is different than "carry concealed," then what action does it entail? That is, what additional permission does it grant, it can't be just simple possession, that is implied by "carry concealed." One can't carry concealed a pistol one does not have (in the sense of "have" meaning possession). The premises license states "have and possess," so we know have is different than possess.

Definition of HAVE

transitive verb
1a : to hold or maintain as a possession, privilege, or entitlement <they have a new car> <I have my rights>
b : to hold in one's use, service, regard, or at one's disposal <the group will have enough tickets for everyone> <we don't have time to stay>

If "have" does not equal possession, we must look to the alternative definition, if have means that it is at my disposal or held for my use, and it is not carried concealed, then how else might the object be at my disposal, and not concealed unless I carry it overtly?

emsjeep said:

Thats not what that says...."illegally carrying" doesn't automatically equate to "carrying with a license but not concealed".


The licensing statute does state "have and carry concealed" but if I was forced to argue the point I would assert that expressio unius est exclusio alterius doesn't apply here. That is, just because it permits concealed carry doesn't mean that it excludes open carry. "Have," as an alternative to concealed carry is also problematic, if "have" is different than "carry concealed," then what action does it entail? That is, what additional permission does it grant, it can't be just simple possession, that is implied by "carry concealed." One can't carry concealed a pistol one does not have (in the sense of "have" meaning possession). The premises license states "have and possess," so we know have is different than possess.

Definition of HAVE

transitive verb
1a : to hold or maintain as a possession, privilege, or entitlement <they have a new car> <I have my rights>
b : to hold in one's use, service, regard, or at one's disposal <the group will have enough tickets for everyone> <we don't have time to stay>

If "have" does not equal possession, we must look to the alternative definition, if have means that it is at my disposal or held for my use, and it is not carried concealed, then how else might the object be at my disposal, and not concealed unless I carry it overtly?

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Can you say - "meaningless semantics". This is no Clintonian definition of "is" debate. The law is quite clear. 400.00 only recognizes concealed carry - period! 265 only makes exception for carry under - 400.00. ANY deviation from 400.00 and you are now subject to illegal possession under 265. You can blather all day long, but when you're in front of a judge and District Attorney - that is what you'll be charged with. It doesn't matter what they say in Wyoming or Kansas or any where else.

redlegagent said:

Can you say - "meaningless semantics". This is no Clintonian definition of "is" debate. The law is quite clear. 400.00 only recognizes concealed carry - period! 265 only makes exception for carry under - 400.00. ANY deviation from 400.00 and you are now subject to illegal possession under 265. You can blather all day long, but when you're in front of a judge and District Attorney - that is what you'll be charged with. It doesn't matter what they say in Wyoming or Kansas or any where else.

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Please stop masquerading as a lawyer.

emsjeep said:

Please stop masquerading as a lawyer.

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I've never identified myself as a member of that cockroach - ambulance-chasing class thank you very much. They are the source of many of the problems this country currently suffers from with their idiotic "interpretations" that constantly twist our legal system. You don't have to be a lawyer to understand that law. Having had a pistol permit for more than 20 years and having spoke to both county judge and law enforcement, I have an understanding of how the system works. Forums like this one provide for a myriad of outside interpretations of what the laws "should be". There have been a number of law suits filed against NYS over the years from a variety of "view points" of what the law should be - and they have always LOST - either in the circuit courts or at the appellate court level. The courts have deemed that penal law 265 essentially "bans" handgun possession in NYS except for the provisions allowed under 400.00. If you violate the terms of 400.00, you may find yourself subject to either 265 or, at a minimum, "menacing". There is no open carry in NYS except for on duty law enforcement or hunting - and that's even pushing it. Even retired and off-duty police must conceal carry under the law.

redlegagent said:

Having had a pistol permit for more than 20 years and having spoke to both county judge and law enforcement, I have an understanding of how the system works.

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Quite an impressive resume you have.....

emsjeep said:

Quite an impressive resume you have.....

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Thank you, I knew you'd find it so. Your's is equally impressive - oh wait, you have none I see. Oh well, given your impressive post count you are undoubtably just another troll. If you were an attorney, you'd still justify what I've written because any reputable lawyer would know that the laws in question have withstood MULTIPLE legal challenges over the years and wouldn't offer "ambulance chaser" logic.

redlegagent said:

Oh well, given your impressive post count you are undoubtably just another troll.

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So what the hell would that make me?????????? I guess that would make me looking for another forum.

EVERYONE starts with a LOW post count. Don't ya think genius?????

Bye

Sparky6654 said:

So what the hell would that make me?????????? I guess that would make me looking for another forum.

EVERYONE starts with a LOW post count. Don't ya think genius?????

Bye

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Considering the dicussion was not directed at you I would say it makes you "over anxious". lol

redlegagent said:

Thank you, I knew you'd find it so. Your's is equally impressive - oh wait, you have none I see. Oh well, given your impressive post count you are undoubtably just another troll. If you were an attorney, you'd still justify what I've written because any reputable lawyer would know that the laws in question have withstood MULTIPLE legal challenges over the years and wouldn't offer "ambulance chaser" logic.

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I don't feel the need to qualify my assessment through claiming that I have associated with "people who know." I presented a logical and educated argument regarding a particularly murky point of law that you are free to rebut or further investigate on an intelligent level. So far, you have presented no substantiative law on point and have engaged in logically inconsistent evaluations of common language readings of legal text. If you can provide them, I would like to see these "multiple legal challenges" . . . thus far you have refused, and likely because either they don't exist or because you don't have the cockroach ambulance chasing education to find and/or read and interpret them in any coherent manner.

You are welcome to visit me over on Arfcom (~1,100 posts), PAFOA (~1,600), CTguntalk or any number of other places where I routinely "troll"...

emsjeep said:

I don't feel the need to qualify my assessment through claiming that I have associated with "people who know." I presented a logical and educated argument regarding a particularly murky point of law that you are free to rebut or further investigate on an intelligent level. So far, you have presented no substantiative law on point and have engaged in logically inconsistent evaluations of common language readings of legal text.

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The point of which you contend - that what is not prohibited under the law is therfore legal by default does not apply and only serves to confuse the basic tenet of this thread - what am I allowed to do under the law? People inquire in these forums in search of relevent information and as this particular subforum is dedicated to New York State, information provided here should be relevent to that. My discussions over the years with individuals whose job is to enforce said laws offers me a working knowledge of how these laws are interpreted here in NYS and what to expect under the law. Your "point" of murkiness in definition adds nothing to the discussion at hand as it will not "protect" any individual who finds themself at odds with the law. While many criminal statues are written in a way where they are identifying proscribed activites and behaviors, NYS Penal law 400.00 and 400.01 does the opposite. It serves as an adjunct to 265 identifying what exceptions are allowed in regard to NYS Penal law 265. Additionally, under 400.00, several types of permits are created. A "premises only" permit is sanctioned under the law as opposed to a carry permit thus you have the term "have and carry". NYS Penal law 265 effectively bans the possession of a handgun in NYS except for a few designated exceptions - one being 400.00. Under 400.00, the only recognized carry permit is a concealed carry. Your contention that open carry may be legal as it is not specifically proscribed under the law is incorrect and misleading. However "ambiguous" you may feel the statue is written, it's intent has been upheld and wide latitude of descretion has been awarded to the issuing authorities by the NYS Appellate Court in cases over the years challenging the laws intent and consitutionality. Feel free to google them yourself should you desire to read them.