Question for Military personnel about OC

blt38 · May 26, 2010

imported post

BTW cheeshead, thank you for your service. I am a retired Marine colonel and have two kids in service. Semper Fi,

Uber_Olafsun · May 27, 2010

imported post

CheeseHead wrote:

No, it’s the same in the Army – subject to the UCMJ 24/7, and as a leader you don’t walk by a deficiency. So from that side, the LtCol was correct. But his tone, demeanor and pressure on the Marine after being told he was in the wrong were inappropriate.

And AMEN to the Ft Hood thing. The first thing I thought when I saw/heard about it was, “if there had only been an OC/CCer in the crowd”. And maybe there was, but his/her weapon was back at home because they can’t carry it on post. Crazy! :banghead:

Peace!

Sarcasm on

What you trust them with weapons in the states?!?!?

Sarcasm off

Seriously for most troops that should be a standard uniform item. You never know when something could happen on base or off that needs a response. Since my job was medical equipment repair I would not have been able to carry due to equipment I work on (MRI that would be fun to have to pull a gun out of). Even unloaded clip on the side would be better than nothing. When 9-11 happened I was part of the group from Andrews that responded to the Pentagon. We had no SPs with us just cops. Imagine if that would have been an actual military attack and there were some covert enemy military there to pick out responders. The cops going to give us their spare guns?

NovaCop · May 27, 2010

imported post

Uber_Olafsun wrote:

CheeseHead wrote:

No, it’s the same in the Army – subject to the UCMJ 24/7, and as a leader you don’t walk by a deficiency. So from that side, the LtCol was correct. But his tone, demeanor and pressure on the Marine after being told he was in the wrong were inappropriate.

And AMEN to the Ft Hood thing. The first thing I thought when I saw/heard about it was, “if there had only been an OC/CCer in the crowd”. And maybe there was, but his/her weapon was back at home because they can’t carry it on post. Crazy! :banghead:

Peace!

Click to expand...

Sarcasm on

What you trust them with weapons in the states?!?!?

Sarcasm off

Seriously for most troops that should be a standard uniform item. You never know when something could happen on base or off that needs a response. Since my job was medical equipment repair I would not have been able to carry due to equipment I work on (MRI that would be fun to have to pull a gun out of). Even unloaded clip on the side would be better than nothing. When 9-11 happened I was part of the group from Andrews that responded to the Pentagon. We had no SPs with us just cops. Imagine if that would have been an actual military attack and there were some covert enemy military there to pick out responders. The cops going to give us their spare guns?

Spares??? I have an M4 and a glock (on duty). I think that is less than efficient for fighting against a military enemy. If I had my personal guns than I'd be glad to share (as long as you gave them back of course ha).

ElevenBravo · Jun 24, 2010

imported post

I was shopping at walmart once in uniform during lunch break, I put my cover on and grabbed the two bags to walk out. some @$$hat officer in civies made it his mission in life to come tell me to take my cover off indoors. (I was E4). I ignored him and kept walking. He got in my fact and started yelling to take my cover off. I almost copped an assult charge that day.

Point is, even in the military, @$$holes will exist.

HORAH
Andrew

NovaCop · Jun 24, 2010

imported post

ElevenBravo wrote:

I was shopping at walmart once in uniform during lunch break, I put my cover on and grabbed the two bags to walk out. some @$$hat officer in civies made it his mission in life to come tell me to take my cover off indoors. (I was E4). I ignored him and kept walking. He got in my fact and started yelling to take my cover off. I almost copped an assult charge that day.

Point is, even in the military, @$$holes will exist.

HORAH
Andrew

@ssholes exist EVERYWHERE. Seems that they reproduce at rapid rates. Don't let them get to you.

fm2176 · Jun 27, 2010

I've open carried in uniform, of course I was transporting weapons at the time and had an M9 so I guess it was official business.

There will always be the mid-level and upper-echelon leaders that try to dictate what their subordinates can and can't do off-post and off-duty. The standard at my first unit was that no males could wear earrings, even in civilian clothing and off-post. Of course, the Commanding General in Alaska issued his guidance on carrying up there a few years ago.

There are always going to be the self-righteous jackasses that think that because they outrank you they have every right to harass you. As for the post in page one about "superior" officers, you have that wrong. We have customs and courtesies that require us to acknowledge a person of higher rank. We also have general military authority where rank does not matter. As a Private First Class in Kuwait I was ordered to check the ID card of every person entering Camp New Jersey. It was not a salute zone so no hand salutes were to be rendered. An SUV pulled up with a Captain driving, he asked why I didn't salute and I told him. He was a bit pissed that I asked him for ID as well. Needless to say he was even more pissed when I kept the barricade in front of him and walked to the passenger side, motioning for the passenger to put down his window. He was a Brigadier General in 3rd Infantry Division. The area was made a salute zone the next day, but that General showed a non-saluting PFC his ID card before entering my camp.

I have met many senior NCOs and officers whom I admire and respect, both professionally and personally. I have yet to meet anyone "superior" to myself.

peter nap · Jun 27, 2010

sorry...wrong thread

since9 · Jan 26, 2011

fm2176 said:
I've open carried in uniform, of course I was transporting weapons at the time and had an M9 so I guess it was official business.

Yep.

There will always be the mid-level and upper-echelon leaders that try to dictate what their subordinates can and can't do off-post and off-duty. The standard at my first unit was that no males could wear earrings, even in civilian clothing and off-post.

I've seen some of this sort of overextension of command authority. The old USAF 35-10 reg said "not on base," but some echelons tried to extend things.

There are always going to be the self-righteous jackasses that think that because they outrank you they have every right to harass you.

This happens as often among the clergy as it does the brass. A couple hundred years ago, some rather wise men got together and discussed how best to solve this problem.

People today are still trying to figure out what they knew better than most of us seem to know today.

An SUV pulled up with a Captain driving, he asked why I didn't salute and I told him. He was a bit pissed that I asked him for ID as well. Needless to say he was even more pissed when I kept the barricade in front of him and walked to the passenger side, motioning for the passenger to put down his window. He was a Brigadier General in 3rd Infantry Division. The area was made a salute zone the next day, but that General showed a non-saluting PFC his ID card before entering my camp.

Good for you! As an O, I've kissed pavement on two occasions, once during an exercise, and once for real because I wasn't following proper procedure.

Keep up the good work. All we ask is that you please don't pull that trigger if we're simply making a mistake. We try our best, but we're only human.

AFPVet · Jan 26, 2011

Lt. Col. Blah was supposed to have his ID card on his person at all times.... He never should have hassled you on what you were doing lawfully.

AbNo · Jan 27, 2011

Is there any.... particular reason this thread was resurrected after six or seven months?

nuc65 · Jan 27, 2011

Grapeshot said:
ChinChin wrote:
Thank you - memory served me correctly then.

Who would one call for such an infraction? Local PD, MP or feds?

It would have been a least slightly amusing to see the alleged Col. led off in cuffs.

Yata hey

If one had proof of such an infraction (recording) one would call NIS as a marine/navy. BTW some bases have policies that prevent active duty service members from carrying or exercising any right.

It is an infraction of the USMJC to not have your id, regardless of your rank as a service member. It is a court martial offense.

nuc65 · Jan 27, 2011

blt38 said:
Maybe unlike the Army, Marines are subject to the UCMJ 24x7. If a NCO, SNCO or officer sees a Marine out of line off duty, they are required to address the problem. However, this does not give the officer the right to question the individual's right to OC while off duty.

I do agree with you that members in uniform should be able to carry on base/post. If service members had been carrying at Ft Hood that asshat would not have killed as many unarmed people as he had.

As a service member you are subject to the USMJC 24x7. All service members are. Whether your command promulgates this or not, it is a fact that once in service it is a continuous duty. Your behavior off base in or out of uniform is subject to rules or your chain of command 24x7.

And2TheRepublic · Jan 27, 2011

As active military in Virginia, I would suggest reading the base policy on transporting weapons on and off base. That's really your ONLY concern. Where I'm located, it must be in a locked case or compartment and be en route to or from a range or gun shop. So, that's always my excuse if an MP discovers the weapon (we have random searches)

You are in the military 24/7. That being said, I do not believe someone who outranks you can dictate your actions and/or laws to follow off base. Even your chain of command cannot do this.

It's been my experience that most higher ranking soldiers are very anti 2nd amendment, but again that's my experience.

AFPVet · Jan 27, 2011

nuc65 said:
It is an infraction of the USMJC to not have your id, regardless of your rank as a service member. It is a court martial offense.

Exactly... what if the OP was an MP? If the Lt. Col. did that to me, I would have ordered him to give me his information after I have identified myself as a security forces member (USAF Law Enforcement) and reported the situation to the law enforcement desk and his commander—for failure to provide ID to a security forces member.

waapl01 · Jan 27, 2011

Carrying a weapon

CheeseHead said:
****************Now, if you were carrying openly WHILE IN UNIFORM, that is a different matter. While you have the individual right to carry openly, wearing the uniform reflects on the Service, and so your conduct is thereby regulated even when "off-duty". No drinking alcohol while in uniform; no protesting while in uniform; no endorsement of private organizations while in uniform; etc.************

First - great job Marine!! and thanks for your service!!

Second - This "LtCol needs to pull his head out of his A$$ He is way out of line.

I'm an Army COL, who has CC'ed for ~15 years and now that I'm in VA have started OC'ing. I haveeven been considering throwing my paddle holster over the belt and pulling up my uniform blouse over my SIG when I'm shopping on the way home from work (so I disagree w/ ForeignDude here). IMHO the unit/CD

R has no right to regulate your/my behavior off post. I also HATE being unarmed while at work, especially when I see the 'minimum wage' security guard watching the doors at the building I work in. eessh!!

Bottom line – your behavior, while off post, if it is in keeping with state, county and local laws is your business. The LtCol needs to go to school and 'get smart' on the state (country) he lives in. Ooh Rah!!

Heres my beef with this. I'm retired navy 25 years. U can't bring a weapon anywhere near a military installation without checking it in every time u enter the base/fort/camp/whatever. So for colonel cheesehead on your way home from work, where do u keep ur weapon during working hours. It pisses me off that i can't even stop at the exchange at nas oceana va exchange outside the gate with a weapon on my side.

waapl01 · Jan 27, 2011

Superior fm2176

fm2176 said:
I've open carried in uniform, of course I was transporting weapons at the time and had an M9 so I guess it was official business.

There will always be the mid-level and upper-echelon leaders that try to dictate what their subordinates can and can't do off-post and off-duty. The standard at my first unit was that no males could wear earrings, even in civilian clothing and off-post. Of course, the Commanding General in Alaska issued his guidance on carrying up there a few years ago.

There are always going to be the self-righteous jackasses that think that because they outrank you they have every right to harass you. As for the post in page one about "superior" officers, you have that wrong. We have customs and courtesies that require us to acknowledge a person of higher rank. We also have general military authority where rank does not matter. As a Private First Class in Kuwait I was ordered to check the ID card of every person entering Camp New Jersey. It was not a salute zone so no hand salutes were to be rendered. An SUV pulled up with a Captain driving, he asked why I didn't salute and I told him. He was a bit pissed that I asked him for ID as well. Needless to say he was even more pissed when I kept the barricade in front of him and walked to the passenger side, motioning for the passenger to put down his window. He was a Brigadier General in 3rd Infantry Division. The area was made a salute zone the next day, but that General showed a non-saluting PFC his ID card before entering my camp.

I have met many senior NCOs and officers whom I admire and respect, both professionally and personally. I have yet to meet anyone "superior" to myself.

Roger that FM2176 I was only a Chief E-7, superior ????? bull s**t.

Felix · Jan 30, 2011

I don't believe a single piece of this LtCol's story...there's absolutely no way an active-duty O-5 would be without his ID card. You have to show it so frequently, the location in your wallet is known blindfolded.

And even if he was a retired LtCol, his story doesn't pass the smell test. Every retiree in the NoVA area shops in the exchanges, commissaries and uses the local military health-care facilities. And to do that requires your ID card, so even then you'll certainly know where it is.

I retired as an O-6 five years ago and I can guarantee you I know exactly where my retired ID is in my wallet.

This guy was a rank impostor. Seemed to be somewhat familiar with military lingo so he might have been in the service for a short period of time, or maybe he's a DoD civilian, but he's no active-duty or retired O-5.

waapl01 · Jan 30, 2011

weapons,

AFPVet said:
Exactly... what if the OP was an MP? If the Lt. Col. did that to me, I would have ordered him to give me his information after I have identified myself as a security forces member (USAF Law Enforcement) and reported the situation to the law enforcement desk and his commander—for failure to provide ID to a security forces member.

So if he was an MP, military weps get checked in at the end of shift. Ur still not allowed to carry unless maybe ur an NCIS agent as far as I know.

MSC 45ACP · Jan 30, 2011

waapl01 said:
So if he was an MP, military weps get checked in at the end of shift. Ur still not allowed to carry unless maybe ur an NCIS agent as far as I know.

waapl01;

We are not teenagers and most of us aren't driving while texting or paying for each keystroke. We actually try to use correct English most of the time rather than 'text-talk". Please try using "You are", or even "you're" (if you would like to use correct contraction). Some folks make the mistake of using "your" when they mean "you're". Mistakes happen.

"Ur" is just plain laziness... Not even my 11, 13, 18 and 20 year-old children use text talk. It annoys them, too.

And2TheRepublic · Jan 31, 2011

To OP:

Like i state in my previous post, most bases have their gun policy on the Base's website. If not, You should go to the MP station and ask for the policy in writing. i would suggest not ever mentioning to base authority that you do open carry outside base.

DO NOT listen to barracks lawyers or take an MP or anyone elses word for it (including mine). Answers are but usually a few clicks away. Each base has a different policy because its essentially the Base Commander's discretion. That's really your concern here, your posession of a handgun while on base and while entering/exiting is the only laws you should be worried about.

Question for Military personnel about OC

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