imported post
utbagpiper wrote
Other than a few, specific locations already discussed in this thread, a no-gun sign in Utah carries no legal weight.
It does however, offer insights into the views of the owners/managers and if one is discovered to be carrying a gun in one of the rare establishments that has posted a sign (I can think of literally a handful in the metro SLC area, many owned by the same person) one may well expect to be asked to leave.
At that point, failure to leave may result in a trespass charge. When it comes to commercial property open to the public, a good lawyer may be able to rebut that charge based on the specific definition of trespass in Utah code. One might also expect responding police officers to push for disorderly conduct or other charges related to not doing what they tell you to do in terms of leaving.
My general position is, when practical, to avoid doing business with those establishment that are hostile to my RKBA. I also do my best to be respectful of the wishes of truly private property owners, regardless of the law.
However, when legal to do so, and when, for whatever reason I need to be somewhere that guns are not welcome, I will simply carry a little more discretely than OC and leave my private decisions to be my private business. A Utah carry permit makes this legal.
Charles
All excellent points. I have a CFP but prefer to OC just because of the way I dress. This is typically with my shirt tucked in neatly and my .40 tucked nicely against my right side on my belt. It is a compact firearm and is seldom even noticed. I wear my firearm everywhere I go except the hospital and to church, where I securely lock it in my vehicle. I have only ever had negative comments in two places. Once I was asked to leave Costco, where it is not posted but is apparently prohibited in the member agreement, and the other was Newgate Mall, where it is apparently posted but I honestly did not see it because I was dealing with two fussy kids when I entered. No one said a word to me at Costco until I was finished shopping and was eating a hot dog with my kids. I was very politely informed of their flawed policy of prohibiting firearms, with the exception of law enforcement officers. I just told the manager that I was unaware of the policy, asked if it was ok if I finished eating with my kids, it was, and now shop at Sam's Club, where I have never had a problem.
The second, at Newgate Mall, just happened on January 22, 2010. I had shopped at Lens Crafters for quite some time, trying to pick out new glasses for one of my kids, and then spent about two hours killing time while Lens Crafters made my son's glasses, bought a couple of games at Game Stop, got Haircuts for both of my boys, browsed several other stores, including one that sells some pretty impressive fighting knives, swords, and the like. I was at the far north end of the mall joking with the employees of TCBY while I ordered a yogurt when I was approached by a Security Officer. He asked if I was a police officer, I said, "no", showed him my CFP, he looked at it for a while, couldn't figure out what it was, and handed it back to me. I had to explain to him what it allowed me to do since I did have a round chambered and did need the permit to carry the firearm as it was. He then informed me I could not carry my firearm in the mall because it, "scares the other customers". I asked him if someone had complained and he said, "no", he was just checking because he had noticed the firearm. I politely told him that I did not want to scare anyone and that I would gladly conceal it in the future. He told me that would be fine, I un-tucked my shirt and put it over my firearm, which completely concealed it. I finished my shopping and had not further problems.
In both places I had business patrons thank me for carrying my firearm after witnessing the exchanges between myself and the store representatives. I think most businesses have misconceptions about what their customers want. I don't believe I scare anyone and there wasn't a complaint at either business. I wish there was a good way to educate businesses as to what their customers want. I think they would find that, with the exception of the radical few, the majority of their customers don't care if law abiding citizens are armed, especially those who have taken a course that is accepted in 30+ states, been finger printed, and undergone a background check.
Does anyone know if there is a way to do a good, valid survey of the public to see if my theory is true? We know what everyone on this website thinks but we need a statistically valid survey.
By the way, a little politeness and respect will get you out of just about everything when it comes to carrying on private property. Hostility will just escalate an otherwise easily resolvable situation.
Food for thought? Let me know what you think. Tell me where I am wrong. Please don't take anything out of context.
Go!