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Thread: HB 1379: Child-care facilities... local regulation of possession and storage of firearms

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...101+sum+HB1379

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    Child-care facilities in certain counties and cities; local regulation of possession and storage of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof. Provides that certain Northern Virginia localities may adopt local ordinances that regulate the possession and storage of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof at child-care facilities, so long as such regulation is not more extensive in scope than comparable state regulations applicable to family day-care homes.


    I wonder if someone has been reading our boards??

    TFred


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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    TFred wrote: You even have to ask?

    BTW - Do NOT mess with preemption! It'll cost you votes - big time.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Wow there must be no crime in Northern Virginia
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    TFred wrote: You even have to ask?

    BTW - Do NOT mess with preemption! It'll cost you votes - big time.

    Yata hey
    The more I think about it, the more I'd be willing to bet that the county attorney who responded to the inquiry from that other thread is behind this bill in some respect or another.

    I guess the lesson could be taken to not stir up trouble during the GA session.

    In any case, a new law wouldn't go into effect until July 1st, so the code that is currently on the books needs to come off now.

    (And now if we see this bill changed to take effect upon signing, then we'll know for sure they're watching us!)

    TFred

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    The more I think about it, the more I'd be willing to bet that the county attorney who responded to the inquiry from that other thread is behind this bill in some respect or another.

    I guess the lesson could be taken to not stir up trouble during the GA session.

    In any case, a new law wouldn't go into effect until July 1st, so the code that is currently on the books needs to come off now.

    (And now if we see this bill changed to take effect upon signing, then we'll know for sure they're watching us!)

    TFred
    Concern a bit premature I think - this bill may never get out of committee.

    01/22/10 House: Committee Referral Pending

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    The more I think about it, the more I'd be willing to bet that the county attorney who responded to the inquiry from that other thread is behind this bill in some respect or another.

    I guess the lesson could be taken to not stir up trouble during the GA session.

    In any case, a new law wouldn't go into effect until July 1st, so the code that is currently on the books needs to come off now.

    (And now if we see this bill changed to take effect upon signing, then we'll know for sure they're watching us!)

    TFred
    Concern a bit premature I think - this bill may never get out of committee.

    01/22/10 House: Committee Referral Pending

    Yata hey
    It just showed up today, so it's going to be a bit behind schedule.

    TFred

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    Well considering I haven't heard from the County Attorney maybe it's time I ping him again and ask him what he's been up to? Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this just defining pre-emption another way? Meaning localities cannot require daycare providers store weapons in safes unloaded?

    I think it's a crap amendment myself. Considering the underlying wording in the last sentence "so long as such regulation is not more extensive in scope than comparable state regulations applicable to family day-care homes."

    I think they are trying to get around the wording of the existing statute but I don't think they get there with the amendment. Pre-emption still trumps this I would think.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    bohdi wrote:
    Well considering I haven't heard from the County Attorney maybe it's time I ping him again and ask him what he's been up to? Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this just defining pre-emption another way? Meaning localities cannot require daycare providers store weapons in safes unloaded?

    I think it's a crap amendment myself. Considering the underlying wording in the last sentence "so long as such regulation is not more extensive in scope than comparable state regulations applicable to family day-care homes."

    I think they are trying to get around the wording of the existing statute but I don't think they get there with the amendment. Pre-emption still trumps this I would think.
    Were that the case it is all the more reason to kill it - it would just cloud the issue.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    bohdi wrote:
    Well considering I haven't heard from the County Attorney maybe it's time I ping him again and ask him what he's been up to? Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this just defining pre-emption another way? Meaning localities cannot require daycare providers store weapons in safes unloaded?

    I think it's a crap amendment myself. Considering the underlying wording in the last sentence "so long as such regulation is not more extensive in scope than comparable state regulations applicable to family day-care homes."

    I think they are trying to get around the wording of the existing statute but I don't think they get there with the amendment. Pre-emption still trumps this I would think.
    Two problems that I see off the top of my head.

    1) What does "not more extensive in scope" mean? They could make a law that is different, but "not more extensive" - and this would be decided by whom, in this case a day-care inspector of some sort, and perhaps eventually a judge. The point of preemption is to prevent dozens or hundreds of different laws.

    2) You have a basic misunderstanding of preemption. Preemption cannot "trump" any other state law. Preemption specifically applies only to local laws. Any other state law (as long as it specifically mentions "firearems") is specifically allowed in the preemption law. If this law passes, the effect of preemption is diminished greatly, and it subjects you to the requirement of researching the local ordinances of every jurisdiction in which you wish to carry. You may eventually prevail if the ordinance is really "not more extensive in scope" to the state laws that you do know and are following, but it would likely take you through arrest, lawyering and trial to be exonerated.

    TFred


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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    It will be very interesting to hear what the county attorney tells you. I still suspect he is somehow behind this bill, and he thinks that if he stalls long enough to get it passed and to take effect in July, he can just ignore you until then.

    TFred


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    @ TFred - The existing (state) laws are a loophole for certain providers. Since this board/thread is being watched I'll not add fuel to the fire and do the research for the evil doers

    I'm going to do a follow up letter to the Attorney later tonight with stronger language.

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    The biggest problem with this whole affair is that there is no direct electronic line to the County Attorney's office. I can understand why to a point but it's a major pain.

    TFred - Yeah, I found it highly suspicious that ten days after I got the letter from the FF County Attorney that this amendment shows up, especially from a Delegate so close by....I don't think they were reading the board as much as reacting to my letter to the County Attorney. Of course, it is entirely possible it's both Funny how that law was on the books for 20+ years and no one bothered to do anything about it until THIS month.....

    So I'll post updates here instead of the other thread. I launched a letter to my Delegates included Sickles on it this morning. The short version isI stated that if the County Attorney had time to talk to Sickels and convince him (pure speculation on my part) that an amendment was needed; the Attorney was by default acknowledging that the Fairfax County Code was unenforcable and needed to be removed. Every day that the code stands is a day the county is not complying with existing state law.

    Even if the amendment goes through - which I hope it doesn't - the specific issue I have with the inspection will still exist. Even more reason for Fairfax County to just change the County Code and be done with it.

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    So here's what I received this afternoon from my delegate regarding the situation, based on an email i sent out yesterday morning.

    "I wanted to respond to your e-mail concerning the issue you had raised about certain sections of the County Code not being in compliance with State Code. You had received a response from the County Executive indicating that it was being reviewed by the County Attorney's office. The Board was briefed on the matter in closed session two weeks ago with respect to the preliminary findings of the County Attorney's office. It does appear that there is a conflict with the State Code. Steps were taken to finish the review and initiate appropriate changes to the County Code as necessary.


    However, there were members of the Board who believe the more appropriate course is to seek changes to the State Codeto allow the current County statute to remain. This action resulted in Delegate Sickle's bill, not any independent solicitation of the County staff. The staff does not set legislative policy, the Board does, and the outreach by the legislative staff was at the directive of a majority of the Board.


    Michael R. Frey

    Sully District Supervisor

    Fairfax County Board of Supervisors

    4900 Stonecroft Boulevard

    Chantilly, Virginia 20151

    703 814-7100"

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    bohdi wrote:
    However, there were members of the Board who believe the more appropriate course is to seek changes to the State Codeto allow the current County statute to remain. This action resulted in Delegate Sickle's bill, not any independent solicitation of the County staff. The staff does not set legislative policy, the Board does, and the outreach by the legislative staff was at the directive of a majority of the Board.
    Well that's certainly interesting, I'm glad that they admitted they were behind the bill. I guess we will soon see how sacred or vulnerable the preemption statute is. There is no better emotional plea than "do it for the children..."

    Even on it's best foot, the idea is ridiculous, because if the state code already sets parameters for the restrictions they want (and by the specific text of the bill, they would have to), then there is no logical reason to circumvent the purpose of preemption, for a net-zero result.

    TFred

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    It would serve us well to make sure every delegate on the Militia, Police and Public Safety Committee is made aware that this bill was submitted solely in response to a jurisdiction recently being made aware that they were in violation of 15.2-915.

    TFred


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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Delegate Beverly J. Sherwood (R) - House District 29 - DelBSherwood@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate H. Morgan Griffith (R) - House District 8 - DelMGriffith@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate Terry G. Kilgore (R) - House District 1 - DelTKilgore@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate Thomas C. Wright, Jr. (R) - House District 61 - DelTWright@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate Charles W. Carrico, Sr. (R) - House District 5 - DelCCarrico@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate L. Scott Lingamfelter (R) - House District 31 - DelSLingamfelter@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate David A. Nutter (R) - House District 7 - DelDNutter@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate Clifford L. Athey, Jr. (R) - House District 18 DelCAthey@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate William R. Janis (R) - House District 56 - DelBJanis@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate Benjamin L. Cline (R) - House District 24 - DelBCline@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate C. Todd Gilbert (R) - House District 15 - DelTGilbert@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate Charles D. Poindexter (R) - House District 9 - DelCPoindexter@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate Donald W. Merricks (R) - House District 16 - DelDMerricks@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate James M. Scott (D) - House District 53 - DelJScott@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate William K. Barlow (D) - House District 64 - DelWBarlow@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate James M. Shuler (D) - House District 12 - DelJShuler@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate Lynwood W. Lewis, Jr. (D) - House District 100 - DelLLewis@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate Paula J. Miller (D) - House District 87 - DelPMiller@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate David E. Poisson (D) - House District 32 - DelDPoisson@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate Roslyn C. Tyler (D) - House District 75 - DelRTyler@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate Dan C. Bowling (D) - House District 3 - DelDBowling@house.virginia.gov
    Delegate Charniele L. Herring (D) - House District 46 - DelCHerring@house.virginia.gov
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    TFred - I plan on doing just that later tonight/tomorrow before this thing gets to comittee on Friday.

    t33j - thanks for consolidating that.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    bohdi wrote:
    TFred - I plan on doing just that later tonight/tomorrow before this thing gets to comittee on Friday.

    t33j - thanks for consolidating that.
    It looks like the bill has not been assigned to a sub-committee. I suspect that is probably because it was a late arrival. I don't know if they can or would kill it on Friday, or if they would want to assign it to a sub-committee first.

    TFred


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    Interesting that Del. Sickles is sponsoring this.
    Last edited by The Donkey; 12-13-2010 at 03:01 PM. Reason: A boy and his dog can go fishing . . . .

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    The Donkey wrote:
    Interesting that Del. Sickles is sponsoring this. He is normally on the right side of 2A issues.
    "But Mark, it's for the children!"

    TFred

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Yeah anyone wanna put up a template email for this one???
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Here's what I launched this morning. You might want to modify to your tastes as I wrote this first person.

    Good morning Delegates,

    I am writing to you today because it has come to my attention that House Bill 1379 may be coming to your committee (Militia, Police and Public Safety) this session and I would like you to not allow this bill out of the committee. This bill is being submitted because one locality is currently out of compliance with Virginia state law.

    In early December of 2009, the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors was notified that Fairfax County is not complying with VA "§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization."

    I informed the County Board of Supervisors and the County Attorney, Mr. David P. Bobzien, that Fairfax County Code

    http://library1.municode.com/default-test/home.htm?infobase=10051&doc_action=whatsnew

    Section 30-3-6. Physical facilities, equipment and operation.

    ...(k) "Firearms shall be stored unloaded and apart from ammunition. Firearms and ammunition shall be stored in a locked area with keys out of reach of children."

    needed to be removed from Fairfax County Code and that these two sentences be removed from all forums used to conduct health and safety inspections on day care providers used by Fire Marshalls in Fairfax County who conduct these inspections.

    On January 12, 2010 I received a response from the Fairfax County Attorney. The letter stated that the Fairfax County Attorney's office was looking into the matter of the county code being outdated, unenforceable, and illegal. Today the code is still outdated, unenforceable, and illegal.

    It has come to my attention that Del. Sickels submitted to the VA General Assembly a House bill that is targeting this very issue, which is HB 1379. I requested that my local Delegate, Mr. Frey, find out how this came to be. The response I received is that the County Board of Supervisors took a closed door, back room meeting to discuss the issue, voted in favor of having Del. Sickels submit a bill to amend the state law instead of changing county code and complying with existing laws.

    The true purpose of this bill is to attempt to place further restrictions on gun owners who have child care facilities. The submitted amendment isn’t going to make children at these facilities any more safe than they have been for the last 36 years. It would make them less safe as a day care provider would have to go through extra steps to get to their firearm, load it, and be in a position to use it if they had to. Allowing gun owners to store their weapons loaded while in a safe makes sense, as long as children to do not have access (keys/combination) to that safe.

    Furthermore this bill wasn’t submitted in the spirit of safety or any other honorable cause, this bill was submitted so that Fairfax County would not have to alter it’s code, and spend the expense of changing forms used for health and safety inspections. I understand the entire Union is under economic duress, however I believe that there is a reasonable solution and as such provide the following suggestions for you to recommend to Fairfax County after you kill this bill.

    · Modify the existing county code to bring it in compliance with VA § 15.2-915

    · Inspect the forum used for conducting health and safety inspections for day care providers

    · Conduct an inventory of how many inspection forms are currently in inventory at each fire station, or the one that handles all health and safety inspections for Fairfax county

    · Determine when re-ordering of these bulk forms will be so that the next order can contain the required changes to them at that time, reducing the fiscal impact to the county

    · Identify the offending sections, most notably the two bullets on the inspection form

    · "Firearms shall be stored unloaded and apart from ammunition”

    · “Firearms and ammunition shall be stored in a locked area with keys out of reach of children”

    · Create a “training bulletin” to distribute to all local fire stations in Fairfax County indicating what changes need to be made

    · Create a “cover sheet” to be placed on top of the inspection forms wherever they are stored to ensure the inspector going out to conduct inspections is reminded

    · Have these two bullets crossed or lined out at the time the inspector is departing the station to go conduct an inspection

    · Have the form verified by the watch/operations commander prior to departing the station (when possible) to ensure the changes are made

    These steps will ensure that Fairfax County does not waste time and resources sending inspectors out to facilities to re-inspect them after a failed inspection, due to incorrect County Codes, that the County is too lazy to change. As of today the County is still not in compliance with VA § 15.2-915, and every failed inspection places undue economic and safety duress to the citizens of Fairfax County.

    Please let me know what you intend to do.


    For Yahoo mail users



    DelBSherwood@house.virginia.gov, DelMGriffith@house.virginia.gov, DelTKilgore@house.virginia.gov, DelTWright@house.virginia.gov, DelCCarrico@house.virginia.gov, DelSLingamfelter@house.virginia.gov, DelDNutter@house.virginia.gov, DelCAthey@house.virginia.gov, DelBJanis@house.virginia.gov, DelBCline@house.virginia.gov, DelTGilbert@house.virginia.gov, DelCPoindexter@house.virginia.gov, DelDMerricks@house.virginia.gov, DelJScott@house.virginia.gov, DelWBarlow@house.virginia.gov, DelJShuler@house.virginia.gov, DelLLewis@house.virginia.gov, DelPMiller@house.virginia.gov, DelDPoisson@house.virginia.gov, DelRTyler@house.virginia.gov, DelDBowling@house.virginia.gov,

    DelCHerring@house.virginia.gov, Michael.Frey@fairfaxcounty.gov,



    For hotmail/outlook users



    DelBSherwood@house.virginia.gov; DelMGriffith@house.virginia.gov; DelTKilgore@house.virginia.gov;DelTWright@house.virginia.gov; DelCCarrico@house.virginia.gov; DelSLingamfelter@house.virginia.gov; DelDNutter@house.virginia.gov; DelCAthey@house.virginia.gov; DelBJanis@house.virginia.gov; DelBCline@house.virginia.gov; DelTGilbert@house.virginia.gov; DelCPoindexter@house.virginia.gov; DelDMerricks@house.virginia.gov; DelJScott@house.virginia.gov; DelWBarlow@house.virginia.gov; DelJShuler@house.virginia.gov; DelLLewis@house.virginia.gov; DelPMiller@house.virginia.gov, DelDPoisson@house.virginia.gov; DelRTyler@house.virginia.gov; DelDBowling@house.virginia.gov;

    DelCHerring@house.virginia.gov; Michael.Frey@fairfaxcounty.gov;


    Edited to correct minor gramatical and punctionation issues - spell check won't catch all that.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    bohdi wrote:
    Here's what I launched this morning. You might want to modify to your tastes as I wrote this first person.

    Good morning Delegates,

    I am writing to you today because it has come to my attention that House Bill 1379 may be coming to your committee (Militia, Police and Public Safety) this session and I would like you to not allow this bill out of the committee. This bill is being submitted because one locality is currently out of compliance with Virginia state law.

    ...........snip
    Nicely done - good documentation - well pointed out selfish and underhanded reason for HB1379.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Thanks Grape. I should have proof read this a bit better prior to launching. I think it gets the point across though even with the minor mistakes sent in the orignal.

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    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...101+sum+HB1379

    So does this mean that this is being moved out of sub committee to full committee, our out of committee to the GA for a vote for amendment?

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