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Thread: Anyone Familiar with this OC Incident?

  1. #1
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    From http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...4&t=393318

    Just stating what I saw.

    At approximatly 6:45pm at the Buffallo wild wings in central park Spotsy, I watched a fellow get removed from the restaurant for open carrying.

    Family man, with large group; what looked to be pregnant sister in law, wife ,second sister, mother-in law, brother in law and 6 young children. (all assumptions on my part)

    Had a 20 oz. beer in front of him. Watching the timing of the police officers it seems (my assumption) the waitstaff told restaurant management he was armed and had ordered a beer. Waitstaff served him the beer and watched him take his first large gulp. as soon as he put the beer down 2 local officers walked into the restaurant and very quickly walked up to him and asked him if the beer was his. he said yes but he had only drunk a little bit. Officers asked him to walk out with them, at first he refused but then they told him " do you really want to cause a scene?' Then walked out with them.

    I Did not notice the make of the gun, but it was a full size semi-auto in an inside the belt holster at his rt. hip, only butt end of gun was visible, barrel was inside the pants.

    It was about ten minutes before his spouse went otside to see what was happening. After another ten minutes the other male of their party went outside. After a few more minutes the older lady went outside. she came back into the restaurant within a minute or two and asked for the check while trying to get the rest of the family up and ready to leave.
    I did not see if the police arrested the man or not,
    That is all.
    I don't know where "spotsy" is, but some of the comments/context led me to believe this may have happened in NoVA.

    Anyone here heard of this incident?

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    Spotsylvania?

    But no I haven't heard bout it yet.

    Kinda seems like they wanted to bust him for drinking while carrying though, since they waited til he took a gulp/wanted to make sure the beer was his? If true, maybe this should get cross posted over in the OC and Alcohol thread to illustrate a point for some of the people in that thread.

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    Curtis wrote:
    If true, maybe this should get cross posted over in the OC and Alcohol thread to illustrate a point for some of the people in that thread.
    When has endorsement of ones views by local PD ever held sway in an argument around here

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    DrMark wrote:
    From http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...4&t=393318

    Just stating what I saw.

    At approximatly 6:45pm at the Buffallo wild wings in central park Spotsy, I watched a fellow get removed from the restaurant for open carrying.

    Family man, with large group; what looked to be pregnant sister in law, wife ,second sister, mother-in law, brother in law and 6 young children. (all assumptions on my part)

    Had a 20 oz. beer in front of him. Watching the timing of the police officers it seems (my assumption) the waitstaff told restaurant management he was armed and had ordered a beer. Waitstaff served him the beer and watched him take his first large gulp. as soon as he put the beer down 2 local officers walked into the restaurant and very quickly walked up to him and asked him if the beer was his. he said yes but he had only drunk a little bit. Officers asked him to walk out with them, at first he refused but then they told him " do you really want to cause a scene?' Then walked out with them.

    I Did not notice the make of the gun, but it was a full size semi-auto in an inside the belt holster at his rt. hip, only butt end of gun was visible, barrel was inside the pants.

    It was about ten minutes before his spouse went otside to see what was happening. After another ten minutes the other male of their party went outside. After a few more minutes the older lady went outside. she came back into the restaurant within a minute or two and asked for the check while trying to get the rest of the family up and ready to leave.
    I did not see if the police arrested the man or not,
    That is all.
    I don't know where "spotsy" is, but some of the comments/context led me to believe this may have happened in NoVA.

    Anyone here heard of this incident?
    I heard of it. He was arrested and the charges were dropped.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Ok, now I am confused. I thought it was "technically" legal to drink while open carrying but not recommended for obvious reasons.

    I would like to see what charges they arrested him for and why they were dropped. Did they get him for something like resisting arrest (since he asked them a question!) or some other BS charge.

    In his case there were other family members around, in mine it might just be me and my underage children. I would be VERY pissed if I was arrested and my children sent to social services on some BS charge!

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    45acpForMe wrote:
    I would like to see what charges they arrested him for
    He was arrested for 308J1

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308


    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    45acpForMe wrote:
    I would like to see what charges they arrested him for
    He was arrested for 308J1

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

    How could they think to charge him with that if he was OC'ing? Is that why it was dropped?
    James Reynolds

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    ed wrote:
    45acpForMe wrote:
    I would like to see what charges they arrested him for
    He was arrested for 308J1

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

    How could they think to charge him with that if he was OC'ing? Is that why it was dropped?
    Pro.. yer a smart guy.. you should teach :-)

    Don't forget, police can arrest you for ANYTHING..

    Carry On.

    Ed

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  9. #9
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    45acpForMe wrote:
    I would like to see what charges they arrested him for
    He was arrested for 308J1

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308
    Wow, sounds like these officers may have had an axe to grind with this guy for some reason.

    If you can share more about why he may have been arrested, please do. If you're not really at liberty to share too much... understood.



  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    DrMark wrote:
    Wow, sounds like these officers may have had an axe to grind with this guy for some reason.

    If you can share more about why he may have been arrested, please do. If you're not really at liberty to share too much... understood.
    Personally, and not "officially".. I think the cops were not informed well and did not want to be educated on the scene.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  11. #11
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    ed wrote:
    45acpForMe wrote:
    I would like to see what charges they arrested him for
    He was arrested for 308J1

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

    How could they think to charge him with that if he was OC'ing? Is that why it was dropped?
    Pro.. yer a smart guy.. you should teach :-)

    Don't forget, police can arrest you for ANYTHING..
    I really need to start working on that open carry class for law enforcement. Its been something I've been meaning to write for some time. Just need to show the LE agencies that they'll benefit from it.
    James Reynolds

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Well, it appears the Fredericksburg Police Department has conveniently swept this incident under the rug.

    Nothing of this nature appears in their somewhat daily crime reports, posted here:

    http://fredericksburgva.gov/Departme...ex.aspx?id=335

    This is one of the most disappointing things I have ever read about the Fredericksburg Police Department.

    Ed, how did you find out what the arrest was for? Is there some other public source of info I'm not seeing?

    TFred


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    ProShooter wrote:
    I really need to start working on that open carry class for law enforcement. Its been something I've been meaning to write for some time. Just need to show the LE agencies that they'll benefit from it.
    Excellent way to avoid citizen complaints and potential law suits.

    Extremely good for positive public relations.

    Yata hey
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    I really need to start working on that open carry class for law enforcement. Its been something I've been meaning to write for some time. Just need to show the LE agencies that they'll benefit from it.
    Excellent way to avoid citizen complaints and potential law suits.

    Extremely good for positive public relations.

    Yata hey

    All true.

    However, Spotsylvania is only one county over from Manassas where the Tony's incident occurred. There is no way the police were not aware of it.

    And even if they were, there is no law authorizing police to arrest someone for what the LEO "thinks" the law is.

    In that case out of Alamagordo, New Mexico (St. John?) (where the fella was removed from a movie theater and detained for OC), the federal courtquoted Union Pacific Rail Co. v Botsford:

    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law.

    This is the exact samequote used in Terry v Ohio.

    What in the hell are police doing arresting someone--arresting!!--without being positively, absolutely, dead sure of the law? If they have the slightest doubt, they need to look it up, first.

    Otherwise, they stop mistakenly detaining and arresting OCers, yet continue on other peoplewhatever error in diligence and respect for rights caused the OC problems.

    So, whileeducating police on OC will be helpful, I consider, after having read of numerous illegal detentions and few illegal arrests, that the real problem that needs educating is the central idea contained in the quote above. Followed very closely by an explanation thatpolice need to be darned sure of the law, looking it up or calling a magistrate if need be.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Citizen wrote:
    And even if they were, there is no law authorizing police to arrest someone for what the LEO "thinks" the law is.
    It's not about what law authorizes it, it's about what force prevents it. Currently, zero force prevents it. You're only sane option is to take administrative and legal action after the fact.

    As for this incident, until we get official word from somewhere this is all just scuttlebut.




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    Central Park is is the big shopping center on the North side of RT 3 next to I-95 in Spotsylvania county.



    18-2.308-J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Conviction of any of the following offenses shall be prima facie evidence, subject to rebuttal, that the person is "under the influence" for purposes of this section: manslaughter in violation of ยง 18.2-36.1, maiming in violation of ยง 18.2-51.4, driving while intoxicated in violation of ยง 18.2-266, public intoxication in violation of ยง 18.2-388, or driving while intoxicated in violation of ยง 46.2-341.24. Upon such conviction that court shall revoke the person's permit for a concealed handgun and promptly notify the issuing circuit court. A person convicted of a violation of this subsection shall be ineligible to apply for a concealed handgun permit for a period of five years.

    My take on this is that you have to be convicted of one of the statutes listed in order to be deemed "under the influence" while carrying a "Concealed Handgun".

    So, If he had just taken a drink of his just ordered beer and was "open carrying", what crime did he commit????????

    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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    45acpForMe wrote:
    Ok, now I am confused. I thought it was "technically" legal to drink while open carrying but not recommended for obvious reasons.
    It is. To date I have experienced exactly zero negative LEO reaction while OC and having a drink.

    If true, maybe this should get cross posted over in the OC and Alcohol thread to illustrate a point for some of the people in that thread.
    What point would that be? That northern Virginia is the poster child for abusive and punitive law enforcement practices?
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    Sounds like a new way to win the OC/LEO lottery.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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    mobeewan wrote:
    Central Park is is the big shopping center on the North side of RT 3 next to I-95 in Spotsylvania county.
    No, Central Park is in Fredericksburg City. Trust me, the businesses there pay into my tax base, which keeps my taxes lower. New shopping centers which are actually in Spotsylvania County are eroding the city's tax revenue.

    Also, both Fredericksburg City, and Spotsylvania County are two jurisdictions "over" from Prince William County, which is where Manassas is located.

    Prince William is farthest north, then you must go all the way through Stafford County, and then cross the Rappahannock River into Fredericksburg City, then you can get to Spotsylvania. There are no river crossings directly from Stafford into Spotsylvania.

    TFred

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    Pfft. B-Dubs.

    I never liked that place ever since I found out about them when I moved to Harrisonburg.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    ed wrote:
    45acpForMe wrote:
    I would like to see what charges they arrested him for
    He was arrested for 308J1

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

    How could they think to charge him with that if he was OC'ing? Is that why it was dropped?
    Pro.. yer a smart guy.. you should teach :-)

    Don't forget, police can arrest you for ANYTHING..
    I'd press a complaint for false arrest then..... Maybe sue. They cannot be allowed to get away with that type of behavior.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    mobeewan wrote:
    Central Park is is the big shopping center on the North side of RT 3 next to I-95 in Spotsylvania county.



    18-2.308-J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Conviction of any of the following offenses shall be prima facie evidence, subject to rebuttal, that the person is "under the influence" for purposes of this section: manslaughter in violation of ยง 18.2-36.1, maiming in violation of ยง 18.2-51.4, driving while intoxicated in violation of ยง 18.2-266, public intoxication in violation of ยง 18.2-388, or driving while intoxicated in violation of ยง 46.2-341.24. Upon such conviction that court shall revoke the person's permit for a concealed handgun and promptly notify the issuing circuit court. A person convicted of a violation of this subsection shall be ineligible to apply for a concealed handgun permit for a period of five years.

    My take on this is that you have to be convicted of one of the statutes listed in order to be deemed "under the influence" while carrying a "Concealed Handgun".

    So, If he had just taken a drink of his just ordered beer and was "open carrying", what crime did he commit????????
    Do any of you know who's responsible for J1?

    Our new Governor:

    House amendments - SB 744 Concealed weapons permits.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Repeater wrote:
    Do any of you know who's responsible for J1?
    Our new Governor:
    House amendments - SB 744 Concealed weapons permits.
    Good forhim. If someone is going to drink while carrying, I would rather him be arrested then represent that ALL gun owners are that careless.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  24. #24
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    ed wrote:
    Repeater wrote:
    Do any of you know who's responsible for J1?
    Our new Governor:
    House amendments - SB 744 Concealed weapons permits.
    Good forhim. If someone is going to drink while carrying, I would rather him be arrested then represent that ALL gun owners are that careless.
    And thus freedom is choked to death, slowly and steadily, in the name of making gun onwers look responsible.

  25. #25
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    ed wrote:
    Repeater wrote:
    Do any of you know who's responsible for J1?
    Our new Governor:
    House amendments - SB 744 Concealed weapons permits.
    Good forhim. If someone is going to drink while carrying, I would rather him be arrested then represent that ALL gun owners are that careless.
    And thus freedom is choked to death, slowly and steadily, in the name of making gun onwers look responsible.
    +1

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