Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: People that say your CPL gives up your right to OC

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Clio, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    363

    Post imported post

    The intelligent people of this forum have educated me in the past in regards to the fact that you do not give up your right to OC with a CPL, it is just that recently i have had a lot of people tell me "concealed means concealed" and someone who just talked to my mother said he was told that from a LEO!

    Now it states on the back of my CPL, and i quote.

    "This license allows the licensee to carry a pistol on or about his person anywhere in the state, except a licensee shall not carry a concealed pistol at . . . . . . . . . "

    now if what these walking law books are saying is correct then why does it not read

    "This license allows the licensee to carry a concealed pistol on or about his person anywhere in the state, except a licensee shall not carry a concealed pistol at . . . . . . . . . "

    why specify Concealed in the later part but not in the beginning? because even your license explains that it gives you your (proposed already given) rights!

    i guess i am starting this topic just to rant. people can be so silly sometimes

    Devery


  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Jackson, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    692

    Post imported post

    When people say " You Give Up Your ight To Open Carry, When You Obtain A CPL" Is full of $hit, A CPL gives you more options to OC. If a Non - CPL Holder walks into a place OC that even sells Liquor, That is a Felony. But a CPL Holder CAN OC, In a place that Sells/ Serves Liquor.

    I WOULDN`T listen, Ask a cop for OC advice. They don`t know the Laws regarding OC, They DON`T want to look up and see if something is Legal, Or not. So a cop is the last person I would ask for any OC Question that I have.

  3. #3
    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Lennon Michigan, ,
    Posts
    533

    Post imported post

    dude, as an open carry poster, I am sure you know how ignorant people can be, I can't believe how often people say something along the lines of

    "you can't do that, it's illegal"

    I want to slap them in the back of the head and say, Hello McFly, would I be carrying a gun if I couldn't? But instead I am professional and kind, and try to open their minds a bit.

    Everyone thinks they know the law, it's really sad. I totally agree with you

  4. #4
    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Lennon Michigan, ,
    Posts
    533

    Post imported post

    as far as asking LEO's, I've found the MSP headquarters in lansing has a firearms specialist there, who is absolutely more than helpful in answering any firearms law question I have.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    inkster, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    150

    Post imported post

    i love it when i hear that leo say you give up your rights to oc when you get a cpl, thats like saying, when you get a cycle indorsment, you cant drive a car no more.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Not on this website, USA
    Posts
    2,482

    Post imported post

    manicdevery wrote:
    it is just that recently i have had a lot of people tell me "concealed means concealed"
    Sure, the word concealed does mean concealed, and if you have a CPL then it gives you the OPTION to carry it that way. No where does it state that you give up your right to OC when you get your CPL.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Not on this website, USA
    Posts
    2,482

    Post imported post

    khicks wrote:
    i love it when i hear that leo say you give up your rights to oc when you get a cpl, thats like saying, when you get a cycle indorsment, you cant drive a car no more.
    Good one! You could also throw in the CDL.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157

    Post imported post

    manicdevery wrote:
    now if what these walking law books are saying is correct then why does it not read

    "This license allows the licensee to carry a concealed pistol on or about his person anywhere in the state, except a licensee shall not carry a concealed pistol at . . . . . . . . . "
    Or why doesn't it read "This license requires that the licensee, if carrying a pistol, must carry said pistol concealed and may carry said concealed pistol anywhere in the state......"

    But it doesn't say that now does it?

    Also, print out this recent MCRGO answer to FAQ from Steve Dulan and show it to the naysayers.



    Monday, January 11, 2010

    [line]



    Frequently Asked Question


    Q: What is the MCL number for a person being able to openly carry a gun in Michigan?

    A: Your question refers to the Michigan Compiled Laws numbering system. All of Michigan's statutes are available online at www.Legislature.MI.gov. They are organized in a numbering system and all of them begin with "MCL." The answer is that the right to carry a gun openly is not actually part of the MCL system. Rather, it is laid out in Article I, Section 6 of the Michigan Constitution, which states: "Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state." This clause is more clearly worded than the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Because the Michigan provision, adopted almost two centuries after the adoption of the US Constitution, uses the phrase, "defense of himself," there has never been the level of debate regarding whether the right was an individual right that there was regarding the Second Amendment. For many years during the 20th Century, there was confusion in some jurisdictions brought on by a misunderstanding of the term "Militia" in the Second Amendment. That confusion was cleared up, for the most part, by the US Supreme Court's decision in the Heller case recently.

    For quite some time in Michigan, local units of government attempted to restrict the right to bear arms by passing local ordinances purporting to prohibit open carry. These laws were rendered void in 1990 with the enactment of MCL 123.1102, which became effective in March of 1991 and states: "A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state." This means that the Michigan Constitution, and state statutes, control firearms in Michigan and no city, township, or county can make its own gun laws.

    There is another concept in law called the Rule of Lenity, which stands for the proposition that whatever is not prohibited by law is allowed. So, the constitutional right, combined with no state statute prohibiting open carry means that open carry is lawful.

    If the gun is concealed, it is subject to the crime of carrying a concealed weapon, commonly referred to as "CCW," which specifies a prison term of up to five years for carrying a concealed weapon without a license. The only concealed weapon for which a license is available in Michigan is a pistol. So, someone who has a Concealed Pistol License (CPL) may conceal a pistol and not be guilty of the crime of "CCW."

    Open carry is the answer when a CPL holder inaverdently exposes his pistol. As long as he is in a place where he, and his pistol are allowed to be, and he is not threatening a fellow citizen without justification, the fact that the pistol was momentarily unconcealed is of no legal consequence.

    Steve Dulan (www.StevenWDulan.com) is a member of the Board of Directors of the MCRGO and the MCRGO Foundation, and a member of the Board of Trustees of the MCRGO Foundation. He is an attorney in private practice in East Lansing and Adjunct Professor of firearms law at The Thomas M. Cooley Law School. as well as an NRA Life Member.
    Bronson

    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  9. #9
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    2,241

    Post imported post

    wally1120 wrote:
    When people say " You Give Up Your ight To Open Carry.
    Tell them its about as stupid as saying when they get a drivers license they give up the right to walk.
    Im proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Clio, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    363

    Post imported post

    Bronson wrote:
    manicdevery wrote:
    now if what these walking law books are saying is correct then why does it not read

    "This license allows the licensee to carry a concealed pistol on or about his person anywhere in the state, except a licensee shall not carry a concealed pistol at . . . . . . . . . "
    Or why doesn't it read "This license requires that the licensee, if carrying a pistol, must carry said pistol concealed and may carry said concealed pistol anywhere in the state......"

    But it doesn't say that now does it?

    Also, print out this recent MCRGO answer to FAQ from Steve Dulan and show it to the naysayers.


    *

    Monday, January 11, 2010

    [line]

    *

    Frequently Asked Question


    Q: What is the MCL number for a person being able to openly carry a gun in Michigan?

    A: Your question refers to the Michigan Compiled Laws numbering system. All of Michigan's statutes are available online at www.Legislature.MI.gov. They are organized in a numbering system and all of them begin with "MCL." The answer is that the right to carry a gun openly is not actually part of the MCL system. Rather, it is laid out in Article I, Section 6 of the Michigan Constitution, which states: "Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state." This clause is more clearly worded than the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Because the Michigan provision, adopted almost two centuries after the adoption of the US Constitution, uses the phrase, "defense of himself," there has never been the level of debate regarding whether the right was an individual right that there was regarding the Second Amendment. For many years during the 20th Century, there was confusion in some jurisdictions brought on by a misunderstanding of the term "Militia" in the Second Amendment. That confusion was cleared up, for the most part, by the US Supreme Court's decision in the Heller case recently.

    For quite some time in Michigan, local units of government attempted to restrict the right to bear arms by passing local ordinances purporting to prohibit open carry. These laws were rendered void in 1990 with the enactment of MCL 123.1102, which became effective in March of 1991 and states: "A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state." This means that the Michigan Constitution, and state statutes, control firearms in Michigan and no city, township, or county can make its own gun laws.

    There is another concept in law called the Rule of Lenity, which stands for the proposition that whatever is not prohibited by law is allowed. So, the constitutional right, combined with no state statute prohibiting open carry means that open carry is lawful.

    If the gun is concealed, it is subject to the crime of carrying a concealed weapon, commonly referred to as "CCW," which specifies a prison term of up to five years for carrying a concealed weapon without a license. The only concealed weapon for which a license is available in Michigan is a pistol. So, someone who has a Concealed Pistol License (CPL) may conceal a pistol and not be guilty of the crime of "CCW."

    Open carry is the answer when a CPL holder inaverdently exposes his pistol. As long as he is in a place where he, and his pistol are allowed to be, and he is not threatening a fellow citizen without justification, the fact that the pistol was momentarily unconcealed is of no legal consequence.

    Steve Dulan (www.StevenWDulan.com) is a member of the Board of Directors of the MCRGO and the MCRGO Foundation, and a member of the Board of Trustees of the MCRGO Foundation. He is an attorney in private practice in East Lansing and Adjunct Professor of firearms law at The Thomas M. Cooley Law School. as well as an NRA Life Member.
    *

    Bronson
    thank you very much bronson for another piece of liturature that i will be carrying around with me, i planned on after checking my daily OCDO forum addiction i was going to find some verification on "local ordinances"
    I have a brochure that i take everywhere with me that touches on it i just needed a little more before i talk ot my cop buddy.
    he told my mom last night when she had mentioned that i had been OCing he said"he needs to watch out for local ordinances!" to my immediate thought was, how many LEOs go around and enforce these laws they think they know?!?!? so scary they take actions based on what they think they know.
    thanks again all

    Devery

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Clinton Township, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    93

    Post imported post

    The MSP liason in Lansing is Trooper Hawkins. He took Sgt. Deasy's place and has been very helpful answering questions. The bullshirt about giving up your right to open carry when you get your CPL is just that ..... ********. Some CPL course teachers tell students that so as not to lose customers.Call him with questions at 517-336-6241 or email @ hawkinscj@michigan.gov

  12. #12
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Mason, Michigan
    Posts
    1,811

    Post imported post

    manicdevery wrote:
    Bronson wrote:


    thank you very much bronson for another piece of liturature that i will be carrying around with me, i planned on after checking my daily OCDO forum addiction i was going to find some verification on "local ordinances"
    I have a brochure that i take everywhere with me that touches on it i just needed a little more before i talk ot my cop buddy.
    he told my mom last night when she had mentioned that i had been OCing he said"he needs to watch out for local ordinances!" to my immediate thought was, how many LEOs go around and enforce these laws they think they know?!?!? so scary they take actions based on what they think they know.
    thanks again all

    Devery

    im hoping your LEO friend knows that local ordinancesregarding firearmscannot lawfully be enforced,we have a state preemption law.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  13. #13
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,937

    Post imported post

    manicdevery wrote:
    Now it states on the back of my CPL, and i quote.
    "This license allows the licensee to carry a pistol on or about his person anywhere in the state, except a licensee shall not carry a concealed pistol at . . . . . . . . . "

    now if what these walking law books are saying is correct then why does it not read

    "This license allows the licensee to carry a concealed pistol on or about his person anywhere in the state, except a licensee shall not carry a concealed pistol at . . . . . . . . . "

    why specify Concealed in the later part but not in the beginning?
    Easy. The license is a concealed pistol carry license, not a general carry license (as some states have). Some modifiers referencing concealment would be grammatically redundant. If you notice,"license", "licensee", and"pistol" in the beginning partall properly omit references toconcealment, because it would be redundant. "This concealed carry license allows the concealed carry licensee to carry a concealed pistol . . ." is full of unnecessary redundancy.

    Now, in the later part, the modifier "concealed" with pistol is necessary and not redundant because it is would be wrong to say (without the modifier)"a licensee shall not carry a pistol at . . ." because licensees can in fact carry a pistol, openly, in the CC CEZs.

    That would be my answer to anyone trying to improperly interpret something about general carry from the wording on the concealed carry license.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Clio, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    363

    Post imported post

    thekunk47 wrote:
    The MSP liason in Lansing is Trooper Hawkins. He took Sgt. Deasy's place and has been very helpful answering questions. The bullshirt about giving up your right to open carry when you get your CPL is just that ..... BULL@#$%. Some CPL course teachers tell students that so as not to lose customers.Call him with questions at 517-336-6241 or email @ hawkinscj@michigan.gov
    thanks much for the contact. and all of the information for my new rebuttals to all who posted on this topic.

    devery

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burton, Michigan
    Posts
    3,361

    Post imported post

    thekunk47 wrote:
    The MSP liason in Lansing is Trooper Hawkins. He took Sgt. Deasy's place and has been very helpful answering questions. The bullshirt about giving up your right to open carry when you get your CPL is just that ..... BULL@#$%. Some CPL course teachers tell students that so as not to lose customers.
    IMO, the logic of those CPL Instructor's is flawed. Folks who choose to begin carrying and are 21 years of age or older will still seek the CPL classes. Those who are between 18 years of age and 21that realize OC is legal in Michigan without a CPL and know it's their only option to carry,will certainly obtain the CPL when they turn 21, knowing the benefits of OC with a CPL.OC in Michigan will only aid to increase CPL class registration not decrease them.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •