Open carry incident in Belle Meade Tennessee 1-23-10 5:15-5:30pm

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kwikrnu wrote:

Not sure why you emphasized holster. I take that to mean you do not approve of slings, scabbards, or carrying in the hand? You're going to love it when I carry my puma holstered. I was thinking about an x frame smith in a chest holster or maybe a couple of vaqueros in some nice gun leather.

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OOOOHHH but you can't do that in Belle Meade. It's iiilllleeeeeegggallllllll, remember.

What the matter Leonard, can't findany little friends to play with at home?

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kwikrnu wrote:

No grounds?



Since when do terry searches allow for interior checks of pockets?

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It's called an illegal search--perhaps you should file a complaint with the FBI and speak with an attorney.

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Task Force 16 wrote:

bohdi wrote:

My point in asking the question is I wonder if he would have gotten the same amount of harassment with a modern handgun that qualifies as a Army or Navy pistol by definition.

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He could have OC'd ANY pistol, holstered, and they wouldn't have bothered him. But that wouldn't have served kwik's purpose. He went fishing for a lawsuit, pure and simple.

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And if that furthers the cause of gun ownership in this state, and makes the point to the cops to leave us alone if we are minding our own business then so be--I would have no qualms about pursuing litigation if my rights were violated, I would have no qualms about filing complaints with the FBI if they were violated and I certainly would have no qualms about filing with their department--though the good that would do--it is like asking the Fox to investigate himself for a break-in of the chicken coop--it is always obvious what the Fox will find when he investigates himself isn't it.

The bottom line is--he was within the law, he was minding his own business--he was accosted by the police for no legitimate reason....

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Task Force 16 wrote:

kwikrnu wrote:

Not sure why you emphasized holster. I take that to mean you do not approve of slings, scabbards, or carrying in the hand? You're going to love it when I carry my puma holstered. I was thinking about an x frame smith in a chest holster or maybe a couple of vaqueros in some nice gun leather.

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OOOOHHH but you can't do that in Belle Meade. It's iiilllleeeeeegggallllllll, remember.

What the matter Leonard, can't findany little friends to play with at home?

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I won't in Belle Meade until they change the law.

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suntzu wrote:

kwikrnu wrote:

No grounds?



Since when do terry searches allow for interior checks of pockets?

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It's called an illegal search--perhaps you should file a complaint with the FBI and speak with an attorney.

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I will wait for the in car video and audio and show it to my attorney. I may not be able to afford two federal cases at once.

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suntzu wrote:

Task Force 16 wrote:

bohdi wrote:

My point in asking the question is I wonder if he would have gotten the same amount of harassment with a modern handgun that qualifies as a Army or Navy pistol by definition.

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He could have OC'd ANY pistol, holstered, and they wouldn't have bothered him. But that wouldn't have served kwik's purpose. He went fishing for a lawsuit, pure and simple.

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And if that furthers the cause of gun ownership in this state, and makes the point to the cops to leave us alone if we are minding our own business then so be--I would have no qualms about pursuing litigation if my rights were violated, I would have no qualms about filing complaints with the FBI if they were violated and I certainly would have no qualms about filing with their department--though the good that would do--it is like asking the Fox to investigate himself for a break-in of the chicken coop--it is always obvious what the Fox will find when he investigates himself isn't it.

The bottom line is--he was within the law, he was minding his own business--he was accosted by the police for no legitimate reason....

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I think complaints are good. It is like discovery before discovery. They don't get 10 months or longer to rethink and change their story too much.

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I recommend you open carry a snow ball next time, just don't throw it at a tree, see if that gets you harassed. Or pretend to spit on the sidewalk, however they may get you for the malicious charge. Those are some pretty interesting laws in Belle Meade.

Focusing on the military aspect is irrelevant. You either have a Navy or Army gun in your hand, or you don't and get arrested. Funny how you have to have it in your hand to carry it, legally. Wonder what that is all about, a misprint perhaps?

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bohdi wrote:

Focusing on the military aspect is irrelevant. You either have a Navy or Army gun in your hand, or you don't and get arrested. Funny how you have to have it in your hand to carry it, legally. Wonder what that is all about, a misprint perhaps?

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As I have said before, the law is based upon laws written in the 1870's. Many cities in Tennessee have the army navy laws, some have ammended them, others have not. Belle Meade ammended their weapons ordinance last in 1987, but did not remove the army navy or carry in hand part.

The law has been upheld by the state supreme court. The handgun is a large, heavy, cap and ball black powder pistol and not anything else from my understanding of the court cases.

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I understand that what you carried during that one incident was large, heavy, and black powder. The law was updated in 1987. Guns have also been updated. Therefore you could carry a "modern" 1911 or other similarily current weapon used by today's military and still qualify as having a Army or Navy pistol - as long as they are or have been used by the military branches.

What's so special about Belle Meade to you anyway? Don't you have a local grocery store?

You might be surprised but I don't really have a problem with what you have done this time around. Have you tried working with the local government to get the ordinance changed?

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Questions to ponder -

Why are gaps, loopholes, voids in the law sought out for some and "tested" with such drama? Are there not other equally effective and potentially less damaging means available - letter to county attorney - meeting with city council et cetera?

Is notoriety the motivation? For whom or what is that beneficial?

Yata hey

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Grapeshot wrote:

Questions to ponder -

Why are gaps, loopholes, voids in the law sought out for some and "tested" with such drama? Are there not other equally effective and potentially less damaging means available - letter to county attorney - meeting with city council et cetera?

Is notoriety the motivation? For whom or what is that beneficial?

Yata hey

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Based on this guys stunts, I'd have to say lawsuit money is the motivation.

Get a job like the rest of us and quit trying to find little nitpick ways of tripping up law enforcement as a means of generating capital.

Grandstanding chumps like you make it harder on the rest of us who just want to be able to carry normal sidearms, in holsters the way they are meant to be carried, as a means of self-defense.

And don't go asking what's "normal" again. We covered that in your last stupidity.:banghead:

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Kwikrnu,

First, thank you for breathing life back into the forum. It was becoming a little stale.:celebrate

Cap and ball is a lot of fun, but not the most reliable. Beauty of a revolver misfire in an extremis situation isthat you just pull the trigger again.

Funny how you behavior of carrying the cap and ball revolver in your hand is seen as more acceptable than slinging a more modern pistol.:banghead:

BTW kwik, we have had more than one discussion in the DC forum about the legality of antique firearms, or replicas thereof, being legal for open carry there. I double dog dare you........:what:

Live Free or Die,

Thundar

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Grapeshot wrote:

Questions to ponder -

Why are gaps, loopholes, voids in the law sought out for some and "tested" with such drama? Are there not other equally effective and potentially less damaging means available - letter to county attorney - meeting with city council et cetera?

Is notoriety the motivation? For whom or what is that beneficial?

Yata hey

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Since the BMPD doesn't enforce the city ordinance on weapons, but rather follows Tn state law regarding the carry of loaded handguns in the city of Belle Meade, it would seem that getting the city council to either repeal or amend the city ordinance to comply with TN state statutes would be rather easy, not to mention allot less dramatic.

AH but, Kwik wouldn't get the attention he wants if he went that route.

Here's some things that have to be asked.

1) Prior to kwik's stunt, have we heard of anyone, with a TNissued HCP,being unduely harrassed by BMPD for OC? I haven't heard of any incidences.

2) Has anyone with a TN issued HCP been arrested and charged for carrying, in public,a handgun other than an old Army/Navy BP pistol? I haven't heard of any incidences.

3)Has anyone with a HCP or CC permit from another state been arrested in Belle Meade, for not carrying their handgun "in hand"? I haven't heard of any incidences.

Now, if the answer to any of these question were yes, then I'd say kwik's action was warrented. But since the answer seems to be no to all of the questions, it appears that kwik's action was a unwarranted STUNT that served no purpose except to garner attention to him.

Here's another question for all. When ever there is a OC picnic or gathering in public places around the country, isn't it always a rule that no OC'er removes his/her weapon from it's holster? YES

And why is that? Partly for safety reasons and so that we don't cause undue alarm among the other citizens and LEOin the area.

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NavyLT wrote:

Many, many people when they hear about an open carrier getting hassled by the cops will cry and whine, "Well what did you expect carrying a gun like that, conceal it like a 'normal' person would do!"

And then the same folks that are pissing and moaning on here respond to them - "Because it's legal!", "Because it is my right!", "The cops violated my rights!", "Normal people carry their gun openly!"....

And now you all turn right around and say the EXACT same B.S. that the concealed carry crowd says of the rest of us. He isn't normal. He might scare people. He wouldn't have gotten hassled if he carried the way we carry in a holster. What is wrong with that picture?

So, the next time someone shakes their finger at you and says, "You caused it because you insist on open carrying", then you have no choice but to look in the mirror because they are acting just like you.

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On most things I see eye to eye with you - on this I disagree completely.

It is not about the legality or satisfying the letter of the law. It is about changing perceptions and attitudes of those opposed to us. More often than not we gain more ground by choosing a course of action that is less "in-your-face" and served in more easily accepted doses.

Is there a time for a direct, vigorous response? Surely - as in where a LEO says he will arrest OCers on sight and the Chief backs him up. Where flaws are found in the laws or system, there are simpler ways to correct them frequently.

More and more people OCing as they go about their daily routine is what normalizes OC so much more than overtly dramatizing a singular action or event.

I would be legal were I to sling a loaded EBR and parade back and forth in the parking lot of our local county PD headquarters. If I were arrested (not likely), I would undoubtedly win in court and with any other action I chose to pursue. The resultant publicity/fallout though could set back our goals immeasurably. I would have tossed a big bone to the antis.

If you think that this philosophy is contrary to our cause, I suggest you read more of Mike and John's statements to this line of reasoning. OCDO is not and has never been, to my understanding, an anything goes site. While there is no set standard of decorum, there is an obvious message to this regard.

Do I think the actions of this individual have been legal as documented on this thread and similar others? A simple yes will suffice. Do I think think his actions have been good for Us? Very directly, No.

Yata hey

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kwikrnu wrote:

It was carried in my hand as law requires.

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Are you the guy who carried the friggin' AK-pistol in the state park?

In either event, you're carrying a pistol in your hand. Are you looking for trouble?

Nice handle, by the way. I'll guarantee, no matter how "kwik" you are, someone out there is quicker.

With friends of open carry like yourself, who needs enemies?

John

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turbodog wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

Questions to ponder -

Why are gaps, loopholes, voids in the law sought out for some and "tested" with such drama? Are there not other equally effective and potentially less damaging means available - letter to county attorney - meeting with city council et cetera?

Is notoriety the motivation? For whom or what is that beneficial?

Yata hey

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Based on this guys stunts, I'd have to say lawsuit money is the motivation.

Get a job like the rest of us and quit trying to find little nitpick ways of tripping up law enforcement as a means of generating capital.

Grandstanding chumps like you make it harder on the rest of us who just want to be able to carry normal sidearms, in holsters the way they are meant to be carried, as a means of self-defense.

And don't go asking what's "normal" again. We covered that in your last stupidity.:banghead:

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Turbodog, you live in Louisiana, which is an unlicensed OC state--meaning that possession of a firearm in and of itself is not grounds for a non-consensual LEO encounter--now how many non-consenual LEO encounters have you had and how many complaints have you filed against the police for their behavior?

In Tennessee you need a state issued permit (a privilege instead of a right) in order to carry.

Kwikrnu was within TN law, he was not committing a crime and still it just was impossible for LE to leave anyone alone--why shouldn't he do something like sue in order to educate the police--obviously they don't understand anything else except losing money--and state money spends just as well as any earned from a paycheck.

He should sue, he should file a complaint--and he should file a civil rights complaint--nothing will happen on the local complaint because it is like asking the fox to investigate himself for taking a chicken, and the FBI will most likely just ignore the civil rights complaint until they get more of them....

Let me see--you call it grandstanding--it seems to me that is exactly the same view the police take of OC'ers in general who do OC a "normal" pistol in a holster....

He was within the law--they violated his rights--seems to me the police need to spend more time learning the laws and less time trying to find ways to abuse the rights of the people they work for.

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NavyLT wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

On most things I see eye to eye with you - on this I disagree completely.

It is not about the legality or satisfying the letter of the law. It is about changing perceptions and attitudes of those opposed to us. More often than not we gain more ground by choosing a course of action that is less "in-your-face" and served in more easily accepted doses.

I would be legal were I to sling a loaded EBR and parade back and forth in the parking lot of our local county PD headquarters. If I were arrested (not likely), I would undoubtedly win in court and with any other action I chose to pursue. The resultant publicity/fallout though could set back our goals immeasurably. I would have tossed a big bone to the antis.

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And how do you respond to the anti-OC concealed carry only crowd that says EXACTLY the same things about us in the open carrycrowd?

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Your question leads or attempts to lead an answer and is therefore not fairly principled; nevertheless, I will provide.

Should a dedicated CCer object to my OCing in their home or business, I would then CC if I were to stay. Should the problem between us lie with my OCing in public, then I would encourage him to walk with me and share in what I do - experience it.

I recognize that the CC only community has their box, their boundaries, as does most of the OC forum. The problem that I see is that the OP would seem to not subscribe to any limits - he alone is the judge of what is right or prudent.

Apparently on this we shall have to agree to disagree.

Further, you selectively edited my post which included:

If you think that this philosophy is contrary to our cause, I suggest you read more of Mike and John's statements to this line of reasoning. OCDO is not and has never been, to my understanding, an anything goes site. While there is no set standard of decorum, there is an obvious message to this regard.

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Yata hey

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NavyLT wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

If you think that this philosophy is contrary to our cause, I suggest you read more of Mike and John's statements to this line of reasoning. OCDO is not and has never been, to my understanding, an anything goes site. While there is no set standard of decorum, there is an obvious message to this regard.

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Yata hey

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He wasn't performing his a actions under the name of OCDO was he?

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By virtue of posting his various exploits here, he becomes by default a member of this community and will be know by others as such.

Whether he was born in Tennessee or not is immaterial as that is where he lives and plays. So also it is with OCDO.

The source of notoriety is not oneself, but the perceptions of others. From this we cannot totally divorce ourselves as long as the marriage remains solvent.

Yata hey

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NavyLT wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

On most things I see eye to eye with you - on this I disagree completely.

It is not about the legality or satisfying the letter of the law. It is about changing perceptions and attitudes of those opposed to us. More often than not we gain more ground by choosing a course of action that is less "in-your-face" and served in more easily accepted doses.

I would be legal were I to sling a loaded EBR and parade back and forth in the parking lot of our local county PD headquarters. If I were arrested (not likely), I would undoubtedly win in court and with any other action I chose to pursue. The resultant publicity/fallout though could set back our goals immeasurably. I would have tossed a big bone to the antis.

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And how do you respond to the anti-OC concealed carry only crowd that says EXACTLY the same things about us in the open carrycrowd?

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I would ask the CC only person, "What has he/she done lately to help dispell the anti-gun propaganda that is constantly being touted against citizens carrying guns (OC and CC) in public?" I would point out to the anti-OC person that by hiding his/her weapon from the eyes of others, the public is oblivious of the number of people carrying handguns in public without there being any "shootouts in the streets", as the anti-gun groups claim are surely to occur.

NavyLT, what you don't seem to realize is that here in TN we simply don't have the prolems with LEO that you may have in Washington, or others may have in their respective states. I have yet to be bothered by an LEO over OC, anywhere that I've been in TN. I have never been asked to leave any business that I've entered, while OCing, or asked to cover up my weapon.

kwik's antics are totally unnecessary here in TN.

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bohdi wrote:

My point in asking the question is I wonder if he would have gotten the same amount of harassment with a modern handgun that qualifies as a Army or Navy pistol by definition.

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He probably wouldn't have been harrassed at all if he had been carrying ANY handgun holstered.

Belle Meade PD does not enforce the old antiquate ordinance that kwik has cited. They follow TN state laws regarding carrying of handguns.