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Open carry incident in Belle Meade Tennessee 1-23-10 5:15-5:30pm

WCrawford

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Task Force 16 wrote:
bohdi wrote:
My point in asking the question is I wonder if he would have gotten the same amount of harassment with a modern handgun that qualifies as a Army or Navy pistol by definition.

He probably wouldn't have been harrassed at all if he had been carrying ANY handgun holstered.

Belle Meade PD does not enforce the old antiquate ordinance that kwik has cited. They follow TN state laws regarding carrying of handguns.
TF16, if Kwik had been carrying that particular handgun in a holster, he would have been breaking the law in Belle Meade, and the BMPD would have been in the right to cite him. Carrying that firearm in his hand, as the law demands, attracted attention and he was harassed.

Personally, I would not wish to be forced, by law, to carry any firearm in my hand. Kwik's actions pointed out a flaw in Belle Meade's laws and one that needs to be changed.

You asked in another posting if TN OCers were hassled. You and I know full well that, in most circumstances, we are left alone if we are carrying something "normal" in a "normal" way. It is when the unusual, but legal, firearms and methods of OC that OCers get harassed.

Now the question is, do we (OCers) just support "normal" OC or do we support any legal OC? Let me know so we can let those in CA know that we stop supporting them, too.
 

Grapeshot

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WCrawford wrote:
Now the question is, do we (OCers) just support "normal" OC or do we support any legal OC? Let me know so we can let those in CA know that we stop supporting them, too.
Again leading questions with a restricted choice of answers - rejected.

We prefer normalizing RKBA through OCing in a manner that is most conducive to making progress. Recognizing the legality of something does not mean we promote all methods related thereto.

The premise is false. Tennessee is not California. Distinct places and circumstances play out individually and differently. We frequently modify our responses based on the assessment of facts, including locale and the related laws.

Frankly, I find continued discussion of this somewhat damaging - the horse has been well beaten. It further divides a community that needs no splintering.

What the OP has entered into is legal - end of that point.

That a vast majority of the readership here would seem to agree on is that his methods and style are not ours - end of this point also. ymmv

I'm out of here for now.

Yata hey
 

kwikrnu

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Grapeshot wrote:
I recognize that the CC only community has their box, their boundaries, as does most of the OC forum. The problem that I see is that the OP would seem to not subscribe to any limits - he alone is the judge of what is right or prudent.

Apparently on this we shall have to agree to disagree.

Further, you selectively edited my post which included:
If you think that this philosophy is contrary to our cause, I suggest you read more of Mike and John's statements to this line of reasoning. OCDO is not and has never been, to my understanding, an anything goes site. While there is no set standard of decorum, there is an obvious message to this regard.
Yata hey


I subscribe to the limit of the law. The government decides what is wrong or right. I decide what is prudent.

If the site wanted to post "rules of open carry" I think that would be good idea. Then the site members would know what type of gun they could carry, and where they could carry, what time, and in what manner (clothing, holster, etc).
 

kwikrnu

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Task Force 16 wrote:
NavyLT, what you don't seem to realize is that here in TN we simply don't have the prolems with LEO that you may have in Washington, or others may have in their respective states. I have yet to be bothered by an LEO over OC, anywhere that I've been in TN. I have never been asked to leave any business that I've entered, while OCing, or asked to cover up my weapon.

kwik's antics are totally unnecessary here in TN.
You have not been bothered I have. Obviously there must be a problem with LEO.
 

kwikrnu

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Task Force 16 wrote:

He probably wouldn't have been harrassed at all if he had been carrying ANY handgun holstered.

Belle Meade PD does not enforce the old antiquate ordinance that kwik has cited. They follow TN state laws regarding carrying of handguns.



Why are you advocating that people break the law? IfBelle Meadefollowed TN law they would have read that their law is an exception to preemption. If they didn't want to allow people to open carry in the hand they wouldhave ammended that part of the ordinance in 1987.
 

bohdi

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Alright so with all the quibbling aside Kwik - what's your next step? When do you plan on getting infront of your State representatives and lobby the law of the land to change? You have successfully put the spotlight on this antiquated law. Now what?
 

kwikrnu

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bohdi wrote:
Alright so with all the quibbling aside Kwik - what's your next step? When do you plan on getting infront of your State representatives and lobby the law of the land to change? You have successfully put the spotlight on this antiquated law. Now what?


My next step is probably to suethe three police officers for violations of my civil rights. It goes w/o saying that because I need exercise I will continue to open carry in my hand the black powder pistol.

I did get a notice of attempted delivery of a certified letter from the deprtment of safety yesterday. they are the ones who run the carry permit program in TN. The last time they sent me a certified letter my carry permit was revoked...

The Belle Meade law trumps state law so carry of an army or navy pistol is okay w/o a permit in Belle Meade. I'd just have to make sure I'm not within a school zone while carrying.



I have written my State reps before, house and senate. They can't find the time to write me back so they are a waste of time.
 

bohdi

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A fifteen minute stop a violation of your rights? I don't know how much milage you're going to get with that one....good luck.

If you as an individual haven't gotten far by writing, guess it's time to step up your game an go pay them a visit eh? If that doesn't work time to organize your state and start electing pro-gun folks who will change the laws.

Of course, you don't HAVE to do anything but carry as perscribed by law...but then that's all you get, what's in the current law.
 

Thundar

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kwik,

In order to sue successfully you would need to show a pattern of abuse or a very serious abuse incident.

Document every time your rights are violated and file formal complaints each time. I hope you have a voice recorder or a voice/video recorder. it trumps the unfortunate presumption that the officer is telling the truth and you are not. YMMV

While some on this board will berate you for going to court,going to courtis exactly what the owners of this forum advocate as a cure for repeated LEO violations.

I will be going west later, maybe in the summer. I would love to OC in my hand with my Navy Revolver.:celebrate

Live Free or Die,

Thundar
 

Superlite27

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NavyLT wrote:
Many, many people when they hear about an open carrier getting hassled by the cops will cry and whine, "Well what did you expect carrying a gun like that, conceal it like a 'normal' person would do!"

And then the same folks that are pissing and moaning on here respond to them - "Because it's legal!", "Because it is my right!", "The cops violated my rights!", "Normal people carry their gun openly!"....

And now you all turn right around and say the EXACT same B.S. that the concealed carry crowd says of the rest of us. He isn't normal. He might scare people. He wouldn't have gotten hassled if he carried the way we carry in a holster. What is wrong with that picture?

So, the next time someone shakes their finger at you and says, "You caused it because you insist on open carrying", then you have no choice but to look in the mirror because they are acting just like you.

Exactly.

When kwikrnu first started his "shenanigans", I was one of the first to say, "What an idiot! He's gonna ruin things for all of us! Doesn't he know he's representing all of us?"

Now, I'm not so sure. After much thought, I realize I have been caught in a "catch 22". While I still feel kwik is NOT representing me in a manner I am comfortable with, am I a hypocrite when I say the exact things strict CC'ers say to me when they find out I OC?

How can I rant about my freedom to obey the law when CCer's hassle me, then turn right around and hassle kwik for doing the exact same thing I do?

Does this not make me a hypocrite?

So, after analyzing my reaction, I have changed my tune. I still don't agree with kwik's method, but I can no longer criticize him for doing what he chooses as long as it remains within the law.

So far, he has shown that he pays tedious attention to the letter of it.
 

bohdi

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As with many things related to Kwik, I think that those of us who may be painted as nay sayers to his actions are slightly misrepresented. I think the majority of folks who have provided criticism of his actions, constructive and otherwise, all have the same basic response.

If you are going to go for the glory, make sure you are capable of acheiving it. That means having enough ammunition to do the job.

So far he's proven that he's competent enough to know the laws for the areas he's visiting - Kudos for that.

He's even taken the preliminary steps for changing things by contacting his reps without much luck - Kudos for that.

He's even been harassed by the local LEO's on two different situations, in two different locations - I guess I have to applaud that as well since as much has happened to me.

Does a fifteen minute stop on a first incident require a law suit per se? I don't know that is such a wise move for him, and I think advocating it is jumping the gun.

Kwik - you will obviously do what you want. Just make sure you have a clear idea in your mind what you hope to accomplish before you do and a way you can measure the result. Hate for you to spend the time, money, effort and come up short. Unless of course you are already a lawyer and then it's just time and effort :) Well, maybe money for the FOIA.
 

kwikrnu

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Thundar, I don't think I have to show repeated abusesof civil rights violations. My attorney doesn't think so. You may know better than me, but my attorney is an ex cop who has spent time in federal court.

I don't think it would be hard to show a pattern of abuse in Belle Meade, but I don't have the time to go and walk there daily. If I were arrested I can't miss what I do during the day. Which is why I usually go out walking when the weather is nice on the weekends.

I wouldn't recommend anyone open carry if they don't know the laws. You've got to do your homework and know the laws. If you don't you're at the mercy of the police and magistrates.

A detention for RAS for 15 minutes may be okay. The problem with the stop is that the cop had no RAS. He didn't know the law, so how could he reasonably say I broke the law? I think the real problem is that w/o PC you can't search inside pockets. I don't think they can seize property w/o PC either.
 

Task Force 16

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kwikrnu wrote:
Thundar, I don't think I have to show repeated abusesof civil rights violations. My attorney doesn't think so. You may know better than me, but my attorney is an ex cop who has spent time in federal court.

I don't think it would be hard to show a pattern of abuse in Belle Meade, but I don't have the time to go and walk there daily. If I were arrested I can't miss what I do during the day. Which is why I usually go out walking when the weather is nice on the weekends.

I wouldn't recommend anyone open carry if they don't know the laws. You've got to do your homework and know the laws. If you don't you're at the mercy of the police and magistrates.

A detention for RAS for 15 minutes may be okay. The problem with the stop is that the cop had no RAS. He didn't know the law, so how could he reasonably say I broke the law? I think the real problem is that w/o PC you can't search inside pockets. I don't think they can seize property w/o PC either.

I'm assuming you are talking about the city ordinance in the statement in bold.

If he didn't know about the city ordinance, wouldn't if make sinse to assume that it was not inforced? So, if BMPD is accustom to enforcing State Law instead of some outdated city ordinance don't you think that seeing some one carrying a handgun "in hand" instead of holstered might look somewhat suspicious and warrant investigating (RAS)?
 

kwikrnu

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Task Force 16 wrote:
kwikrnu wrote:
Thundar, I don't think I have to show repeated abusesof civil rights violations. My attorney doesn't think so. You may know better than me, but my attorney is an ex cop who has spent time in federal court.

I don't think it would be hard to show a pattern of abuse in Belle Meade, but I don't have the time to go and walk there daily. If I were arrested I can't miss what I do during the day. Which is why I usually go out walking when the weather is nice on the weekends.

I wouldn't recommend anyone open carry if they don't know the laws. You've got to do your homework and know the laws. If you don't you're at the mercy of the police and magistrates.

A detention for RAS for 15 minutes may be okay. The problem with the stop is that the cop had no RAS. He didn't know the law, so how could he reasonably say I broke the law? I think the real problem is that w/o PC you can't search inside pockets. I don't think they can seize property w/o PC either.

I'm assuming you are talking about the city ordinance in the statement in bold.

If he didn't know about the city ordinance, wouldn't if make sinse to assume that it was not inforced? So, if BMPD is accustom to enforcing State Law instead of some outdated city ordinance don't you think that seeing some one carrying a handgun "in hand" instead of holstered might look somewhat suspicious and warrant investigating (RAS)?


I am working off the assumption that cops are supposed to know the laws. If they do not know the laws they are sworn to enforce how can they be effective cops?
 

turbodog

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suntzu wrote:

Turbodog, you live in Louisiana, which is an unlicensed OC state--meaning that possession of a firearm in and of itself is not grounds for a non-consensual LEO encounter--now how many non-consenual LEO encounters have you had and how many complaints have you filed against the police for their behavior?

Well, despite this being an OC state, that doesn't automatically mean that LEO just walk on by you. Yes, I have had a non-consensual encounter and no, no complaint was filed. I can thank OCDO for how to handle such a thing better now.

That doesn't mean I'm going to file a lawsuit just because a cop asks me some questions.


In Tennessee you need a state issued permit (a privilege instead of a right) in order to carry.

Ya, I knew that and I agree with your statement about it. I hope you guys can get that changed one day.

Kwikrnu was within TN law, he was not committing a crime and still it just was impossible for LE to leave anyone alone--why shouldn't he do something like sue in order to educate the police--obviously they don't understand anything else except losing money--and state money spends just as well as any earned from a paycheck.

I'm not saying he violated the law. He wasn't during his last stunt either.
My point was, he finds little nitpick ways of tripping up law enforcement with the seeming goal of filing a lawsuit when they question him.

Your right, state money spends just fine, but try and recall just where the state got the money from. If this was a case of repeated abuse of authority, I agree, sue away! He get's stopped and questioned once and he has a lawyer lined up. And based on his previous activities, I'd bet he had the lawyer lined up ahead of time for this fishing trip.

The guy seems to have a talent for legal research. If he spent as much time on research that could help gun owners as he spends looking for ways to get rich quick, he could be a real asset to gun owners everywhere.



He should sue, he should file a complaint--and he should file a civil rights complaint--nothing will happen on the local complaint because it is like asking the fox to investigate himself for taking a chicken, and the FBI will most likely just ignore the civil rights complaint until they get more of them....

See above.

Let me see--you call it grandstanding--it seems to me that is exactly the same view the police take of OC'ers in general who do OC a "normal" pistol in a holster....

Granted. Even here in an OC legal state, many LEO take a dim view of OC so I agree with you on that statement.

Let's please do recall this was the guy walking around a park with the orange tipped AK-47 strapped on his back. He got all hot and bothered when the police stopped him and questioned him. And wants to sue them for it.

Now he walks around carrying a pistol in his hand and again wants to know why the police stop him and ask questions. And wants to sue them for it.

Personally, if the cops around here see a guy walking around with a pistol in his hand, I'd be pissed if they DIDN"T stop and question.

I'm NOT questioning the legality of what he's doing. He's researched the laws and knows what he can do. I question the whole purpose behind what he's doing.

He was within the law--they violated his rights--seems to me the police need to spend more time learning the laws and less time trying to find ways to abuse the rights of the people they work for.

He got his rights violated. He made a deliberate, well thought out plan to create a specific outcome. Which was...
to get his rights violated. Succeeded, didn't he? Cha-Ching!
And then he get's legitimized by others here. Not by me bro. I got this ones number.

He can carry a sidearm in a holster, he has done so before by his own words. That doesn't seem to satisfy him. His stunts are not about the OC movement or the rights of people to carry a firearm at all.

The first time (the AK stunt) I could have said he was a misguided idealist, but this time was too well thought out. Just seems to me he's a scam artist out for easy money on the taxpayers dime.



 

kwikrnu

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turbodog wrote:

He got his rights violated. He made a deliberate, well thought out plan to create a specific outcome. Which was...
to get his rights violated. Succeeded, didn't he? Cha-Ching!
And then he get's legitimized by others here. Not by me bro. I got this ones number.

He can carry a sidearm in a holster, he has done so before by his own words. That doesn't seem to satisfy him. His stunts are not about the OC movement or the rights of people to carry a firearm at all.

The first time (the AK stunt) I could have said he was a misguided idealist, but this time was too well thought out. Just seems to me he's a scam artist out for easy money on the taxpayers dime.



There is only one way to legally carry in Belle Meade. I carried that way and I'm a scam artist?
 

suntzu

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turbodog wrote:

Well, despite this being an OC state, that doesn't automatically mean that LEO just walk on by you. Yes, I have had a non-consensual encounter and no, no complaint was filed. I can thank OCDO for how to handle such a thing better now.

That doesn't mean I'm going to file a lawsuit just because a cop asks me some questions.



I'm not saying he violated the law. He wasn't during his last stunt either.
My point was, he finds little nitpick ways of tripping up law enforcement with the seeming goal of filing a lawsuit when they question him.

Your right, state money spends just fine, but try and recall just where the state got the money from. If this was a case of repeated abuse of authority, I agree, sue away! He get's stopped and questioned once and he has a lawyer lined up. And based on his previous activities, I'd bet he had the lawyer lined up ahead of time for this fishing trip.

The guy seems to have a talent for legal research. If he spent as much time on research that could help gun owners as he spends looking for ways to get rich quick, he could be a real asset to gun owners everywhere.




Granted. Even here in an OC legal state, many LEO take a dim view of OC so I agree with you on that statement.

Let's please do recall this was the guy walking around a park with the orange tipped AK-47 strapped on his back. He got all hot and bothered when the police stopped him and questioned him. And wants to sue them for it.

Now he walks around carrying a pistol in his hand and again wants to know why the police stop him and ask questions. And wants to sue them for it.

Personally, if the cops around here see a guy walking around with a pistol in his hand, I'd be pissed if they DIDN"T stop and question.

I'm NOT questioning the legality of what he's doing. He's researched the laws and knows what he can do. I question the whole purpose behind what he's doing.

He got his rights violated. He made a deliberate, well thought out plan to create a specific outcome. Which was...
to get his rights violated. Succeeded, didn't he? Cha-Ching!
And then he get's legitimized by others here. Not by me bro. I got this ones number.

He can carry a sidearm in a holster, he has done so before by his own words. That doesn't seem to satisfy him. His stunts are not about the OC movement or the rights of people to carry a firearm at all.

The first time (the AK stunt) I could have said he was a misguided idealist, but this time was too well thought out. Just seems to me he's a scam artist out for easy money on the taxpayers dime.



First, you should always remember--formal complaints are your friend....use them and use them often--meaning every single time you are stopped for a non-crime.

Second, cops have a "right" to consensually stop and talk to you--but to non-consensually stop you for not committing a crime--for me that makes them the criminal....violate a single right and they are no longer "the good guys"--I'm just sorry the DOJ does not take that view.

Third, you accuse Kwikrnu of "deliberately trying to trip-up LE"----you can't "set someone up" who is already predisposed to commit the crime--do you think they would hesitate to do the same thing to you or anyone else--if you think they would not try to trip you up, then you have more faith in them than I do.

Fourth--you reminded me of where the state gets the money to pay people with when our rights are violated--for me that is perfectly ok--because if the people dole out enough money then they might eventually get the hint and start holding their government accountable a bit more--the people are responsible for the misconduct of their government, and if they are unwilling to demand that their government tow the line and respect our rights-- then they should not complain when taxpayer money goes out the door in order to pay multiple judgments. Further, if the police spent as much time actually respecting the Constitutional rights of the people instead of trying to find new and creative ways of violating them--we wouldn't even have this problem would we?

Fifth, you say you think kwik might just be out to collect easy money on the taxpayer dime--again if the people are unwilling to hold their government accountable--then they have no reason to complain when they start paying out judgments to satisfy civil rights suits--get the police to actually respect our rights instead of violating them and we won't have this problem.

Sixth--you said you would be pissed if the cops didn't stop to question someone with a pistol in their hand--not me. I would be more pissed for the rights violation. No crime= no reason to stop. He was within the law and was minding his own business as per state law and still the police just couldn't pass up the chance to violate a citizens rights.

Seventh--you agree about the conduct of the police in non-permit required OC legal states--they call us "tools", they try every way they can to cite or arrest, and in my class we were specifically told that if we OC'ed and they responded more than once to us--they "would find a reason to arrest us"...meaning they would trump up charges--more than likely a catchall charge of disorderly conduct in order to make a point about who was in control.

Finally--whether he was intentionally trying to draw a police response or not is of no concern to me--the fact remains--his rights were violated, he was within state law and if the police don't know the laws they are supposed to enforce then they should find another line of work. One rights violation is one too many. It sets a bad example by letting them think that we will tolerate it and just go BOHICA every time they get the urge to violate our rights.

You are supposed to live in a "free state"--it isn't free when you have cops breathing down your neck simply because you choose to exercise your rights in a way that does not please 'them".

If a lawsuit furthers the cause of gun rights then so be it, if complaints are needed to get it through to the government that we won't tolerate abuses then so be it--lawsuits and complaints seem to be the only thing they understand.
 

suntzu

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kwikrnu wrote:
Task Force 16 wrote:
kwikrnu wrote:
Thundar, I don't think I have to show repeated abusesof civil rights violations. My attorney doesn't think so. You may know better than me, but my attorney is an ex cop who has spent time in federal court.

I don't think it would be hard to show a pattern of abuse in Belle Meade, but I don't have the time to go and walk there daily. If I were arrested I can't miss what I do during the day. Which is why I usually go out walking when the weather is nice on the weekends.

I wouldn't recommend anyone open carry if they don't know the laws. You've got to do your homework and know the laws. If you don't you're at the mercy of the police and magistrates.

A detention for RAS for 15 minutes may be okay. The problem with the stop is that the cop had no RAS. He didn't know the law, so how could he reasonably say I broke the law? I think the real problem is that w/o PC you can't search inside pockets. I don't think they can seize property w/o PC either.

I'm assuming you are talking about the city ordinance in the statement in bold.

If he didn't know about the city ordinance, wouldn't if make sinse to assume that it was not inforced? So, if BMPD is accustom to enforcing State Law instead of some outdated city ordinance don't you think that seeing some one carrying a handgun "in hand" instead of holstered might look somewhat suspicious and warrant investigating (RAS)?


I am working off the assumption that cops are supposed to know the laws.
Then you are working off of the wrong assumption.

What we need are federal prosecutions for 4A violations. Not likely to happen unless the same officer/department is doing multiple violations and showing a pattern of abuse..but even state charges of official oppression would go a long way toward helping the cause of civil/state rights.
 

bohdi

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suntzu wrote:
kwikrnu wrote:
Task Force 16 wrote:
kwikrnu wrote:
Thundar, I don't think I have to show repeated abusesof civil rights violations. My attorney doesn't think so. You may know better than me, but my attorney is an ex cop who has spent time in federal court.

I don't think it would be hard to show a pattern of abuse in Belle Meade, but I don't have the time to go and walk there daily. If I were arrested I can't miss what I do during the day. Which is why I usually go out walking when the weather is nice on the weekends.

I wouldn't recommend anyone open carry if they don't know the laws. You've got to do your homework and know the laws. If you don't you're at the mercy of the police and magistrates.

A detention for RAS for 15 minutes may be okay. The problem with the stop is that the cop had no RAS. He didn't know the law, so how could he reasonably say I broke the law? I think the real problem is that w/o PC you can't search inside pockets. I don't think they can seize property w/o PC either.

I'm assuming you are talking about the city ordinance in the statement in bold.

If he didn't know about the city ordinance, wouldn't if make sinse to assume that it was not inforced? So, if BMPD is accustom to enforcing State Law instead of some outdated city ordinance don't you think that seeing some one carrying a handgun "in hand" instead of holstered might look somewhat suspicious and warrant investigating (RAS)?


I am working off the assumption that cops are supposed to know the laws.
Then you are working off of the wrong assumption.

What we need are federal prosecutions for 4A violations. Not likely to happen unless the same officer/department is doing multiple violations and showing a pattern of abuse..but even state charges of official oppression would go a long way toward helping the cause of civil/state rights.
Bingo! +1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Beware. This lawyer you have Kwik is going to get paid whether he is successful in defending you or not. You hire a crap lawyer and lose your case you are out money. You hire a good lawyer and you lose because you don't have enough to back up your claims you are out of money....if you have that much money to toss around, let me know. I'll come be your man servant.
 

kwikrnu

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I don't know a lot about this and am trying to learn. I think if there are a lot of abuses the feds will come in and monitor things. As far as having a case for violating my rights you just have to get the judge to agree the rights were violated and you take it to a trial or settle. Either way the judge rules and makes it easier or harder for cops to violate rights.
 
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