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Thread: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel opines on faulty poll

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Not a big surprise, I suppose.

    The poll which is the subject of this opinion piece has been thoroughly discredited, but as usual, a small matter like facts never gets in the way of the anti-gunners.

    Of course there is no venue for leaving comments to set the record straight.


    New poll at odds with gun rhetoric
    Frank Luntz and Tom Barrett

    Posted: Jan. 23, 2010 4:00 p.m.

    The culture war over the right to bear arms isn't much of a war after all. As it turns out, there is a lot everyone agrees on.

    A new poll of gun owners and National Rifle Association members makes it clear that they share many attitudes and beliefs with Americans who don't own guns. In particular, the vast majority of gun owners not only believe that law-abiding Americans have the right to own guns, but they also believe that government ought to be doing more to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

    The poll, conducted by The Word Doctors, a national research and communications firm, and commissioned by the bipartisan coalition of Mayors Against Illegal Guns, shows that gun owners in general and NRA members in particular share the belief that commitment to the Second Amendment goes hand in hand with more vigorous law enforcement and common-sense solutions that prevent criminals from getting guns.

    For instance, 69% of NRA members and 86% of non-NRA gun-owners support closing the "gun show loophole." The loophole allows some vendors at gun shows to sell guns without conducting the federal background checks that all licensed gun dealers perform. Gun shows provide hunters, collectors, sportsmen and gun enthusiasts with a great place to shop - but as the Department of Justice has reported, 30% of guns in illegal gun-trafficking cases are linked to gun shows.

    Mayors of small and large cities and police from throughout the country strongly support closing the gun show loophole. Now we know that gun owners - including NRA members - do, too. The only question is: Are their elected representatives listening?

    The poll also found support among NRA members and other gun owners for numerous other policies to strengthen safety, security and law enforcement, including allowing the FBI to block gun sales to individuals on the terror watch list, requiring gun owners to report lost and stolen guns to police and providing local police departments with more data analysis of gun trafficking patterns.

    The poll confirms what is almost always true: The American people have far more common sense than the politicians in our state capitols and in Washington. They support policies that solidify and protect their Second Amendment rights while also protecting their communities from criminals and illegal behavior. And they recognize that more can be done within the bounds of the Second Amendment to punish the guilty and protect innocent lives.

    So, why has the "culture war" over guns remained a media mainstay?

    In politics, myths are hard to slay. In this case, that is true not only because conflict makes for good copy but also because the appearance of conflict is real, since the NRA has not (yet) supported the common-sense policies backed by gun owners and non-gun owners alike. And many legislators, fearful of the gun lobby's wrath, have toed the line.

    But the new poll should be a wake-up call for legislators and the NRA leadership alike.

    For legislators, the poll shows that gun owners will overwhelmingly back them on common-sense gun policies to prevent and punish illegality as long as the Second Amendment is protected. And for the NRA leadership, it shows that efforts to defeat these policies will be highly unpopular - even among the organization's own members.

    After a bruising partisan battle on health care, it might seem strange to suggest that gun laws - long-considered a third-rail political issue - could bring all sides to the negotiation table. But centrists in both parties have an opportunity to join the American people in recognizing the culture war over guns is more myth than reality.

    Frank Luntz, a Republican and principal of The Word Doctors, is a pollster whose clients include more than two dozen Fortune 500 companies and CEOs. Tom Barrett, a Democrat, is mayor of Milwaukee and a member of Mayors Against Illegal Guns, a bipartisan coalition of more than 450 U.S. mayors.

  2. #2
    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    So evidently they don't care that there are issues with the methodology of the polls? They don't "believe" the FBI statistics just released?

    I don't blame WordDoctors ... they just did what they were paid to do ... they have never taken a political stance on anything ... they offer a service, that is all.

    I got my fill of political polls during the Clinton administration.
    cheers - okboomer
    Lead, follow, or get out of the way

    Exercising my 2A Rights does NOT make me a CRIMINAL! Infringing on the exercise of those rights makes YOU one!

  3. #3
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    okboomer wrote:
    I got my fill of political polls during the Clinton administration.
    So it is with most polls on political issues--if you like the results, you like the poll. If you don't like the results, you dislike the poll...

    TFred wrote:
    Not a big surprise, I suppose.

    The poll which is the subject of this opinion piece has been thoroughly discredited, but as usual, a small matter like facts never gets in the way of the anti-gunners.

    Possibly this is payback for all the polls that we pro-gunners are always hitting ... hard....

    Now,'s a GOOD poll:

    Keep hitting this poll to repeal one handgun a Month law in VirginiaMonth


  4. #4
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    I've seen the percentages they are spouting. Has anyone seen the questions or the numbers of folks polled? This was the issue with all the old junk they touted. Before Kleck and Lott started doing polls and research for themselves instead of toeing someones line.

    OK, so folks want to see more done within the bounds of the 2A. Do they think it's the gun folks that are standing in the way of prosecuting criminals? There are laws to cover all the stuff they think is wrong, but they insist on more. Why are there career criminals on the street committing gun crimes? How do they get out? Who let's them out? Who believes in rehabilitation or probation over punishment? It's generally not the gun folks. But most of the anti gun libs sure believe in all of it. So who is the problem with guns? The owners or the idiots letting the criminals run free?

  5. #5
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    History from the MJS, not news.;forum_id=4

    Since the 2008 presidential campaign season, gun associations have been fear-mongering about President Obama to boost their membership, increase their relevancy, and fuel gun sales. The National Rifle Association (NRA) claimed that Obama has a “a deep-rooted hatred of firearm freedoms” and spent tens of millions of dollars during the campaign lobbying against Obama trying to portray him as a threat to the Second Amendment. Even during the transition, the NRA claimed that Obama was discriminating against gun owners in his hiring for government positions.

    The NRA’s campaign has been based almost entirely on falsehoods. As noted, the NRA largely dismissed “Obama’s stated position [on gun rights] as ‘rhetoric‘ and substitute[d] its own interpretation of his record as a secret ‘plan.’” More recently, the Gun Owners of America has been mobilizing against health care by claiming that “wellness and prevention” provisions would lead the Obama administration to issue a “no guns” decree.

    Part of the NRA’s strategy of instilling fear is a “never-pass-any-new-gun-laws imperative,” which lawmakers often abide by out of concern that they will be punished at the polls by gun owners. But in his Washington Post column today, E.J. Dionne highlights a new survey of 832 gun owners (including 401 NRA members) by conservative pollster Frank Luntz. The poll finds that NRA members are “more reasonable than the organization’s leaders and supporters in Congress in understanding the urgency of keeping guns out of the wrong hands:
    86 percent of all gun owners believe the country can “do more to stop criminals from getting guns while also protecting the rights of citizens to freely own them.”
    78 percent of NRA members support “requiring gun owners to alert police if their guns are lost or stolen.”
    82 percent of NRA members support “prohibiting people on the terrorist watch lists from purchasing guns.”
    69 percent of NRA members support “requiring all gun sellers at gun shows to conduct criminal background checks of the people buying guns.”
    Interestingly, NRA members seem to be overwhelmingly against Rep. Todd Tiahrt’s (R-KS) amendment that would prohibit law enforcement agencies from accessing gun trace data and require the FBI to “destroy certain background check records within 24 hours,” which the NRA supports. Sixty-nine percent of NRA members said that they support the statement that the federal government “should not restrict the police’s ability to access, use, and share data that helps them enforce federal, state and local gun laws.”

    Poll shows NRA members support gun regulations

    When it comes to passing sensible gun laws, Congress typically offers Profiles in Cowardice.

    The National Rifle Association wields power that would make an Afghan warlord jealous because the organization is thought to command legions of one-issue voters ready to punish any deviation from the never-pass-any-new-gun-laws imperative. Many legislators fear that casting a single vote for even a smidgen of restraint on weapons sales could be politically lethal.

    But imagine if members of the NRA were more reasonable than the organization's leaders and supporters in Congress in understanding the urgency of keeping guns out of the wrong hands.

    NRA leaders, meet your members.

    It turns out that the people in the ranks actually are much wiser than their lobbyists. In a move that should revolutionize the gun debate, Mayors Against Illegal Guns decided to go over the heads of Beltway types and poll gun owners and NRA members directly.

    The survey, which will be released soon, wasn't conducted by some liberal outfit, either, but by Frank Luntz, the Republican pollster lately famous for providing talking points against the Democrats' health care bills. [My emphasis]

    “I support the NRA,” Luntz insists. What he doesn't go for is the “slippery slope argument” that casts any new gun law as the first step toward confiscation. “When the choice is between national security and terrorism versus no limits on owning guns,” Luntz says, “I'm on the side of national security and fighting terrorism.”
    Most NRA members seem to agree.

    In his survey of 832 gun owners, including 401 NRA members, Luntz found that 82 percent of NRA members supported “prohibiting people on the terrorist watch lists from purchasing guns,” 69 percent favored “requiring all gun sellers at gun shows to conduct criminal background checks of the people buying guns” and 78 percent backed “requiring gun owners to alert police if their guns are lost or stolen.” Among gun owners who did not belong to the NRA, the numbers were even higher.

    It's true that these gun owners, including NRA members, don't buy broader forms of gun control. For example, 59 percent of NRA members opposed “requiring every gun owner to register each gun he or she owns as part of a national gun registry,” though I was surprised that 30 percent actually supported this.

    Those surveyed supported the idea that gun laws and gun rights complement each other. The poll offered this statement: “We can do more to stop criminals from getting guns while protecting the rights of citizens to freely own them.” Among all gun owners and NRA members, 86 percent agreed.

    NRA members also oppose the idea behind the so-called Tiahrt amendments passed by Congress. Named for Rep. Todd Tiahrt, R-Kan., the rules prevent law enforcement officials from having full access to gun trace data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and require the FBI to destroy certain background check records after just 24 hours. Talk about handcuffing the police. The mayors' poll offered respondents this statement, antithetical to the Tiahrt rules: “The federal government should not restrict the police's ability to access, use and share data that helps them enforce federal, state and local gun laws.” Among NRA members, 69 percent agreed.

    This survey should empower Congress to take at least some baby steps down the safe path the mayors' group is trying to blaze. They could start by overturning the Tiahrt rules and keeping guns from those on terror watch lists.

    Mayor Tom Barrett of Milwaukee said in an interview that he and his colleagues are trying to send a clear message to gun owners: “If you have a gun you use for hunting or for self-defense in your home, I don't want your gun.” What he does want are tougher rules on purchases that might have kept six of his city's police officers from being shot with guns bought at the same gun store. A lot of gun owners get that.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Penn and Teller are the ONLY people in the media who have told the truth about ALL political Polls...

    Frank Lutz is a political ***** of the lowest degree. His whole game is twisting words to get people to give the answers his clients want, and then massaging the resulting data to further reinforce his client's pre-formed agenda.

    He is an expert propagandist on the same level of Joseph Goebbels--brilliant, crafty, utterly without ethics or morals, and fundamentally evil beyond comprehension...

    F@#$ YOU FRANK!!!

    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  7. #7
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Southsider der hey

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    The Milwaukee Journal/Sential is known for being a Liberal rag. I only have a subscription to get the classifieds (and the comics). Other than that I wont even use it to line a bird cage. Probably get in trouble with the ASPCA if i did

    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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