Out of state carry permits and Federal GFSZ law

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I have a question I'm unsure about carrying a handgun inside the 1000ft federal gun free school zone law.

If I am in Utah with an out of state permit can I carry within a school zone? I know you can with a Utah permit?

For practical purposes I wonder if local law enforcement would enforce that if I were stopped in a school zone. Constitutionally though the Federal govt cannot force local law enforcement to enforce federal law within the states though in practice most local LEO's do.

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As far as Utah law is concerned, you should be OK with any permit.

HOWEVER, the ATF has taken the position that a permit is required from the state the school is located in.

This only applies to K-12 schools. All other should be OK with any permit.

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What's more, I think the ATF is actually right. Here's the relevant text from the law:

[the law does not apply:..] (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

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The part of this that most people seem to focus on is "is licensed to do so by the State". We then debate whether Utah's decision to recognize another state's permit qualifies as being "licensed" by Utah. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that Utah's recognition of another state's permit counts, that it makes the permit holder "licensed" by Utah.

Even if we suppose that, the law ALSO requires that "before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State ... verify that the individual is qualified". If you hold a permit from, say, Florida, is there any way you can say that Utah's law enforcement authorities have verified that you are qualified to hold that permit? That would entail Utah's BCI (or similar) finding out what Florida's permit requirements are and then verifying that you have complied with them. Further, the letter of the law implies that Utah's authorities would have to do this verification before you receive the Florida permit -- which is all just crazy.

Taken as a whole, it's abundantly clear that the legislative intent is that you only get an exemption if you're carrying with a permit from the state in which the school zone is located.

The BATFE is right, more's the pity.

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This is why we need to pass a law like Montana has regarding GFSZ:

45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure. In consideration that the right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act.

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rpyne wrote:

This is why we need to pass a law like Montana has regarding GFSZ:

45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure. In consideration that the right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act.

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Assuming that will hold up. I'm skeptical.

EDIT: On the other hand, I'm even more skeptical that the federal GFSZA will hold up, so perhaps it works fine.

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swillden wrote:

rpyne wrote:

This is why we need to pass a law like Montana has regarding GFSZ:

45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure. In consideration that the right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act.

Click to expand...

Assuming that will hold up. I'm skeptical.

EDIT: On the other hand, I'm even more skeptical that the federal GFSZA will hold up, so perhaps it works fine.

Click to expand...

I will offer as my unprofessional, unsubstantiatable opinion, that the feds are not at all anxious to ever have their GFSZ law tested in court again. At least not with the current SCOTUS. I believe the primary purpose of the law at this point is to encourage the individual States to keep GFSZ laws on their books. These State level laws are much more likely to withstand constitutional scrutiny than is the federal law.

That said, I always suggest adherence to applicable laws until such time as they can be repealed or overturned. At the very least, I'd suggest that anyone with a non-Utah permit give serious consideration to CCing rather than OCing when they are obviously in a K-12 school zone subject to the federal GFSZ law.

Charles