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Thread: Metalstorm 'handgun'.... Yow!

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    The main problem I see with MetalStorm technology is that it is microprocessor-dependent. This means it can be rendered USELESS with a small EMP burst.

    Because of this, mechancical firearms will ALWAYS be superior to electronic weapons in a "survival" situation--no batteries, no EMP vulnerability, nothing but steel, powder, and lead...

    MetalStorm is a cool idea. In a battlefield scenario against a fundamentally low-tech enemy, it offers the ability to put a tremendous amount of rounds downrange.

    But against a high-tech adversary (for instance, anyone with the ability to produce a portable EMP generator), it's tactically limited. If they can build one that is impervious to EMP, and uses a self-recharging power source, then maybe it would be practical for use in a SHTF situation...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionŚand this is hogwash."
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    Interesting concept, however, the handgun is not very practical just yet.

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    Regular Member UtahJarhead's Avatar
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    There are a LOT of stories with handguns and why you don't use rounds that you load/reload/reload/reload/reload in drawing exercises. Stories about how the bullet gets packed down into the casing and can lead to rounds exploding in not-so-good ways. That's the first thing that came to mind with this one.

    Also, being that they are capable of being fully auto, we'll never own these as civilians. I don't like it, but we all know we won't.

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    All we really need to know is how the ignition system works.

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    "No Moving Parts" bothers me. Either the trigger moves or it doesn't. I nit pick.:P

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Depending on the frame, the EMP problem might not be an issue.

    The host said he visited the CEO in D.C. I want to know why that company can get away with possessing their prototype weapon there.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Well, with a full blown carbine, I can see this being easily applicable, but I don't know of anything that can produce enough current, packed into something the size of a handgun to propel a bullet with the velocity required to do damage. Rail gun technology has come a long way, just not that far, then again, I could be completely wrong. I would like to see one in action though.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    This one isn't a rail gun. I believe ignition system is the phrase used.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Tek,
    The projectiles in the MetalStorm guns are propelled using a standard burning/explosive propellant. They are IGNITED, however, using electronic igniters, rather than mechanical/chemical primers.

    The only power you need is enough juice to fire off the igniters. But you STILL need some power, even if it's only 6 or 9 volts DC. If you can't electronically fire the igniters, the gun won't go "bang". Batteries go dead, and lose power over time. Old-fashioned cartridges last for decades. That's my point.


    TheMrMitch,
    There are MANY ways to activate a switch other than mechanically. It could be a galvanic conductance switch, that is activated by touch (like those touch-on, touch-off lamps you can get). It could be a piezo switch that works on compression rather than a mechanical switch. It could be a sensor that detected changes in capacitance or resistance when touched by your finger. There are a myriad of high-tech ways to activate a circuit without mechanical switches, and most of them are NOT new tech. Galvanic switches have been around for nearly 50 years, and resistance-sensing circuits are as old as vacuum tube technology...


    t33j,
    Under DC law, manufacturers of munitions can be issued special licenses to posses, manufacture, and even test firearms in DC. But these are VERY rare. Also, if this company has it's R&D facility on the property of (and uner contract to) a military facility (and there are DOZENS of them in DC), they wouldn't be bound by BATFE or DC regulations with regards to manufacturing or possessing prototype firearms.

    Also, the article said this guy was in DC, but you need to remember that to most of the people in this country, any location "inside the beltway" (which included LARGE parts of VA and MD) is "Washington DC, regardless of what your GPS might say...

    (and judging by the local governments policies and the attitudes of many of the inhabitants of these parts of VA, they ARE much more ideologically aligned with DC than VA...)

    The fact is that MetalStorm has it's corporate headquarters in Arlington VA, and judging from the pics in that video, it looks a LOT more like Arlington than ANY place I remember in DC, and I lived in NoVA and worked in the DC area for 15 years. I don't think they were actually "in DC" in that video. I think those shots where they are inside the big office building handling the prototype pistol were probably in Arlington VA, where MetalStorm's corporate HQ is:

    http://www.metalstorm.com/

    The one thing about Metalstorm tech (and the marketing of the company) that disturbs me is that they are REALLY stressing the unmanned capabilities of these units, specifically the "Redback" unit. The idea of a battery of these devices around the perimeter of various facilities is a little scary. I wonder when they're going to start installing them around the perimeter of Groom Lake?...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionŚand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Ah [I see now], upon [closer review], I do appreciate correction.┬* I failed to pay closer attention to the video regarding the ignition system.

    Still, with no "jams"┬*what about other problems?┬* Such as accidentally igniting one of the succeeding rounds before the proceeding rounds are fired?┬*┬*Or a failure to fully detonate leaving a squib load.┬* Or if the electrical system did fail?┬* I think I'd rather take my chances with the tried and prove non-electronic mechanical handgun.┬* Most of the time, if something goes wrong, you can clear it and try again.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Dreamer wrote:
    ... I think those shots where they are inside the big office building handling the prototype pistol were probably in Arlington VA, where MetalStorm's corporate HQ is...
    Cool, so if we pass a 10th ammendment firearm freedom bill we will have a fully auto metal storm manufactured in VA for our use "in VA". I'm not holding my breath though. :-)

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    45acpForMe wrote:
    Dreamer wrote:
    ... I think those shots where they are inside the big office building handling the prototype pistol were probably in Arlington VA, where MetalStorm's corporate HQ is...
    Cool, so if we pass a 10th ammendment firearm freedom bill we will have a fully auto metal storm manufactured in VA for our use "in VA".┬*┬* I'm not holding my breath though. :-)┬*┬*
    *Holding breath* and I would be hard-pressed to give up the classic "punch a blasting cap" method of propelling a bullet.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    tekshogun wrote:
    *Holding breath* and I would be hard-pressed to give up the classic "punch a blasting cap" method of propelling a bullet.
    I wouldn't throw all my other guns into the trash can.

    The remote controlled version could be good for handling boys coming to ask my daughters out. Simply load bean bags into the grenade version and when they break the perimeter, watch him get knocked down, run, get knocked down, run....

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    45acpForMe wrote:
    tekshogun wrote:
    *Holding breath* and I would be hard-pressed to give up the classic "punch a blasting cap" method of propelling a bullet.
    I wouldn't throw all my other guns into the trash can.

    The remote controlled version could be good for handling boys coming to ask my daughters out. Simply load bean bags into the grenade version and when they break the perimeter, watch him get knocked down, run, get knocked down, run....
    I guess you know the ones that make it to the door are at least worth giving a chance.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    45acpForMe wrote:
    Dreamer wrote:
    ... I think those shots where they are inside the big office building handling the prototype pistol were probably in Arlington VA, where MetalStorm's corporate HQ is...
    Cool, so if we pass a 10th ammendment firearm freedom bill we will have a fully auto metal storm manufactured in VA for our use "in VA". I'm not holding my breath though. :-)
    Companies like this won't sell you jack if it means ******* off their government customers. The real money is in selling to cops and military.

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    About electronic ignition, does anyone else here remember ten years ago when Remington tried to market an electronically operated Model 700 rifle? There was a writeup on it in American Rifleman. It used 30-06 cartridges with electronic primers. Apparently the idea didn't take off. Here's an old article:

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...3/ai_53635294/



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    t33j wrote:
    45acpForMe wrote:
    The remote controlled version could be good for handling boys coming to ask my daughters out. Simply load bean bags into the grenade version and when they break the perimeter, watch him get knocked down, run, get knocked down, run....
    I guess you know the ones that make it to the door are at least worth giving a chance.
    I wise man one said, "Ifa boy comes calling on your daughter, scare him away, and if he is good enough he will come back again."



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    Tomahawk wrote:
    About electronic ignition, does anyone else here remember ten years ago when Remington tried to market an electronically operated Model 700 rifle? There was a writeup on it in American Rifleman. It used 30-06 cartridges with electronic primers. Apparently the idea didn't take off. Here's an old article:

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...3/ai_53635294/

    I was considering getting one of those E-700's for target range use only, it really is a great concept for the competitive match shooter because the bullet will exit the barrel quicker than a standard rifles firing pin would even contact the primer from the time the trigger was pulled.

    I did not like the proprietary ammunition with no chance of getting components for it.
    Certain rifles like certain loads. I do not care if under close microscopic examination and they are alleged to by identical, every barrel has it's own harmonic frequency and a load must be made to match it so the bullets exit at the same point in the harmonic cycle. (that is why you never rest your barrel on the rest when shooting)



    According to metalstorm, if a round in the stackfails to fire, the next round will push it out andthat barrelwill not suffer a catastrophic failure.
    As a handgun? Not interested.
    But as a block-style stationarybattery weapon, I like it.
    I see potential for it being able to take out RPG's in flight, and even missile if built on a larger scale. Electronic gatlin guns are currently used for those tasks by the Navy.

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    Nutczak wrote:
    According to metalstorm, if a round in the stackfails to fire, the next round will push it out andthat barrelwill not suffer a catastrophic failure.
    As a handgun? Not interested.
    But as a block-style stationarybattery weapon, I like it.
    I see potential for it being able to take out RPG's in flight, and even missile if built on a larger scale. Electronic gatlin guns are currently used for those tasks by the Navy.
    The key benefit of the Navy's Phalanx CIWS anti-ship missile system is that it fires slow enough that the radar tracking system can adjust the outpouring stream of fire to intercept the inbound missile threat.

    With MetalStorm, not so much. You'd shoot your whole wad, miss your target by a nat's hair, then say, "dang" just before impact.

    Of course this isn't insurmountable - you could launch a .01-second volley of say 10 rounds, track it with respect to the inbound, then readjust fire with another volley of 70 rounds that would bracket the inbound target in a hexagonal pattern with center punch.

    And that's just one way to skin this cat. Dozens of others. It's just programming, really.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Ah yes, the lovely Phalanx. Ever home should have one.

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    Er, I don't know about all you that had been in the Navy, but our Phalanx wasn't exactly reliable, and I don't know if I would exactly want one that wasn't reliable for my house....

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    I noticed that the prototype still insists on traditional trigger finger initiation. When is someone going to introduce an engineer to a scientist with some physiology training and come up with a thumb initiated system (other than the old MAW deuce)? Less deflection in the muscles of the forearm and disturbance of the target picture while firing. Computer gamers figured it out years ago. Oh well guess I'll go back to sleep.

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    buzzsaw wrote:
    I noticed that the prototype still insists on traditional trigger finger initiation. When is someone going to introduce an engineer to a scientist with some physiology training and come up with a thumb initiated system (other than the old MAW deuce)? Less deflection in the muscles of the forearm and disturbance of the target picture while firing. Computer gamers figured it out years ago. Oh well guess I'll go back to sleep.
    Sounds like you just volunteered to innovate. Let us know howyour ventureworks out!

    Although the thumb is used for grasping the pistol, so I'm not so sure you could follow the "keep your finger off the trigger" rule with a thumb-trigger so easily.

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    Thanks for the promotion but I'm more of an "ideas" kinda guy. Follow thru has never been my strong point. It just occurred to me that the traditional placement of the trigger had more to do with the mechanical linkage required by the old ignition systems. As far as finger on the "trigger" you could as easily set off an electronically controlled system with a clicker held in your teeth if it was considered desirable (think about your electronic car door lock). The point is that we have held to traditional methods without regard to the fact that many are not only no longer necessary but also they have built in disadvantages.

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