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Thread: No OC in PFZs with CPL

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    I was convicted of violating my CPL today, and while in court, I uncovered a serious problem.

    The problem is that the judge in the case did not recognise the opinions of the attorney general, and the state police liason, regarding OC with a CPL in PFZs. I mensioned this to the judge, obviously, but since there is no case law, and no state law, but only an opinion, he referred to 28.4250 and considered the school/church zones to be pistol free zones wether open or concealed. Several Oakland County officers were in attendance (to their credit), so they could learn the laws in this issue, and this is of course what they will be acting upon. We will no longer be able to carry openly in PFZs with a CPL.

    Although this was not the basis for the conviction, I had to post this, as so many of us rely on these AG opinions, and I dont want to see anyone get into trouble.

    If someone could find and post the AG opinion and the state police liason statement, I would appreciate it, I couldnt find it.

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    750.234...there! Your lawyer sucked Sorry I'm sure he's a nice guy just saying...

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.



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    stainless1911 wrote:
    I was convicted of violating my CPL today, and while in court, I uncovered a serious problem.

    The problem is that the judge in the case did not recognise the opinions of the attorney general, and the state police liason, regarding OC with a CPL in PFZs. I mensioned this to the judge, obviously, but since there is no case law, and no state law, but only an opinion, he referred to 28.4250 and considered the school/church zones to be pistol free zones wether open or concealed. Several Oakland County officers were in attendance (to their credit), so they could learn the laws in this issue, and this is of course what they will be acting upon. We will no longer be able to carry openly in PFZs with a CPL.

    Although this was not the basis for the conviction, I had to post this, as so many of us rely on these AG opinions, and I dont want to see anyone get into trouble.

    If someone could findÂ* and post the AG opinion and the state police liason statement, I would appreciate it, I couldnt find it.
    This doesnt make any sense unless you were concealing in a PFZ. According to the law only concealed carry is subject to concealed carry PFZ's. conservative85 has the law posted above. The only thing I can think of is you were concealing or considered concealing. I'd like to see the transcript to help us ascertain what took place.

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    I would be filing an appeal. The judge referred to the wrong law as pointed out. No case law is needed. Make sure your attorney knows 750.234d. Also what was the basis for the conviction. As long as you were OC with a valid CPL, no law was broken.

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    sprinklerguy28 wrote:
    I would be filing an appeal. The judge referred to the wrong law as pointed out. No case law is needed. Make sure your attorney knows 750.234d. Also what was the basis for the conviction. As long as you were OC with a valid CPL, no law was broken.
    I'd think a simple: Show me the law that says open carry is prohibited with a CPL in the PFZ would work

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    i still wanna know how he got the ticket two days later at his home.

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    conservative85 wrote:
    i still wanna know how he got the ticket two days later at his home.
    That's nothing. My mother and sister had a similar situation (only theirs was dismissed), and they didn't get tickets for a week after the event happened.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    conservative85 wrote:
    i still wanna know how he got the ticket two days later at his home.
    That's nothing. My mother and sister had a similar situation (only theirs was dismissed), and they didn't get tickets for a week after the event happened.
    No that's not what I meant.

    I would have never accepted the ticket. I mean he must have had some time between "I'm officer Blah... to "I finally found something to falsely charge you with" That the words Do you have a search warrant? No? sorry can't help you! good day officer..

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    stainless1911 wrote:
    the judge in the case did not recognise the opinions of the attorney general, and the state police liason, regarding OC with a CPL in PFZs. . . . Although this was not the basis for the conviction . . .
    If the judge's remarks about OC with a CPL in PFZs were not the basis or one of the bases foryour conviction, there's nothing to worry about as far as some kind of precedent being established on OC with a CPL in PFZs.

    During proceedings, judges express remarks and views both verbally and in writing which, if they aren't part of the reasoning for conviction, don't really mean anything of substance. Judges sometimes just like to vent their personal opinions, while they have the spotlight and the soapbox.

    We really need to see the transcript and the written opinion to determine if there seems to be a threat.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    cointelpro

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    I thought today was your pretrial?

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    stainless1911 wrote:
    I was convicted of violating my CPL today, and while in court, I uncovered a serious problem.

    The problem is that the judge in the case did not recognise the opinions of the attorney general, and the state police liason, regarding OC with a CPL in PFZs. I mensioned this to the judge, obviously, but since there is no case law, and no state law, but only an opinion, he referred to 28.4250 and considered the school/church zones to be pistol free zones wether open or concealed. Several Oakland County officers were in attendance (to their credit), so they could learn the laws in this issue, and this is of course what they will be acting upon. We will no longer be able to carry openly in PFZs with a CPL.

    Although this was not the basis for the conviction, I had to post this, as so many of us rely on these AG opinions, and I dont want to see anyone get into trouble.

    If someone could find and post the AG opinion and the state police liason statement, I would appreciate it, I couldnt find it.
    AG opinions are merely persuasive authority, not binding on any court, nor is this trial court's opinion on the matter binding on other courts.


    If you were convicted, you can appeal and get an appeals court opinion which will binf trial cours, no?

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    The judges decision was based on my word against the word of the witness. He chose hers. I brought two witnesses who would have stated that it would be abnormal for me to CC, and only one was called to testify. Also the officer who wrote the ticket even said that he saw me OC plainly when he got to my house. I had also 2 police reports from when I was OC, one before this ticket, one after. I feel this should have been presented. I feel that if this had been brought up, as well as 750.234d which conservative85pointed out, I would have easily won.

    Several oakland county officers were present so that they could learn how to better deal with this kind of thing, heard the judge say that the AG opinions were not law, and that according th 28.4250, anyone carrying in a PFZ with or without a CPL would be in violation. This isthe positionthe oakland county deputies are going to be working from. This is a big problem for us.

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    T Vance wrote:
    I thought today was your pretrial?
    So did I. Turns out, since its a civil infraction, today was a formal hearing.

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    stainless1911 wrote:
    The judges decision was based on my word against the word of the witness. He chose hers. I brought two witnesses who would have stated that it would be abnormal for me to CC, and only one was called to testify. Also the officer who wrote the ticket even said that he saw me OC plainly when he got to my house. I had also 2 police reports from when I was OC, one before this ticket, one after. I feel this should have been presented. I feel that if this had been brought up, as well as 750.234d which conservative85Â*pointed out, I would have easily won.

    Several oakland county officers were present so that they could learn how to better deal with this kind of thing, heard the judge say that the AG opinions were not law, and that according th 28.4250, anyone carrying in a PFZ with or without a CPL would be in violation. This isÂ*the positionÂ*the oakland county deputies are going to be working from. This is a big problem for us.
    No it's not because it's not based on the law which SPECIFICALLY says someone who is carrying concealed in a pistol free zone not open carry. My question to the judge would be show me where it says you cannot open carry. Point it out for everyone!!

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    Mike wrote:


    If you were convicted, you can appeal and get an appeals court opinion which will binf trial cours, no?
    I diddnt know that I could appeal a civil infraction. Does it matter that I paid a fine already? and does it matter that it was a district court?

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    stainless1911 wrote:
    Mike wrote:


    If you were convicted, you can appeal and get an appeals court opinion which will binf trial cours, no?
    I diddnt know that I could appeal a civil infraction. Does it matter that I paid a fine already? and does it matter that it was a district court?
    What was the offense exactly? Please post the transcript for us because that will shed the light on this judges decision. It sounds phony to me it wont change anyones opinion on open carry. If it was a criminal trial things would be much different.

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    violation of 28.4250 (a) carrying on school

    28.4250 (e) carrying on church

    I was OC on the playground of a church, which also runs a private school.

    Although convicted, I dont beleive I was in violation.

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    mikestilly wrote:

    . It sounds phony to me it wont change anyones opinion on open carry. If it was a criminal trial things would be much different.
    Are you saying that I sound phony, or have I misunderstood?

    I wouldnt make this up.

    I dont have the transcripts, how do I get them?


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    We need more specific information.

    It sounds like you had an informal hearing in front of a magistrate.

    Who did the witness examinations?

    Did your attorney file an appearance on your behalf?

    Better still... Who was your attorney?

    Why didn't you have a pre-trial hearing?

    There's just too much missing information.

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    I think it was a formal hearing.

    A prosecutor examined me, the officer, my witness, and the oposing witness

    quote id your attorney file an appearance on your behalf?

    I dont know what you mean by that.

    I showed up a couple weeks ago, the prosecution diddnt have a witness, so it was ajourned untill today, where I had a formal hearing,

    I think I have the terms correct, informal /formal etc...

    Im sorry for missing info. Im doing my best.

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    Did your attorney question any witnesses?

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    Stainless, you mentioned earlier:

    "Some kind soul from our site referred me to an attorney who volunteered to take the case.

    Thank God. I had no way to pay the fees or fines. My thanks to those individuals."


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    Yes, I said that. I am grateful, but I certainly wish this had turned out differently. She took the case free, I am on a fixed income.

    I just wanted to bring this to everyones attension so they diddnt get into trouble for OC where we all thought we could.

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