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Thread: Tragic : telling the real truth ?

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    http://www.monroenews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100126/NEWS01/701269999/-1/NEWS



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    Article published at MonroeNews.com on Jan 26, 2010
    Two sides of a story

    For years, Jan Jay says, he has been fighting nuisance dogs that wander onto his rural property in Exeter Township and kill his livestock.But a neighbor said he’s gone too far after he shot her two dogs at point-blank range, leaving one with pellet marks across its body and another that might be permanently blind."He could have shot in the air," said an emotional Daphnia Davis, the dogs’ owner, who lives on Exeter Rd. about a mile from the Jay property. "He didn’t have to shoot them in the face."But Mr. Jay said he was defending himself from attack. He also said he was trying to protect his geese from the two dogs that came onto his property last week. He said at first he shooed them away with a rake but opened fire as the two dogs aggressively came toward him."I was petrified," Mr. Jay said. "The dogs attacked me."A Monroe County sheriff’s deputy investigated the incident. On Monday, Monroe County Assistant Prosecutor Michael Brown said he reviewed the case and decided not to file criminal charges because he believes Mr. Jay did not break any laws."The dogs were shot on his property," Mr. Brown said. "The geese were cornered. There were no conflicting statements."The decision not to file charges was upsetting to Mrs. Davis and Trina Stillwagon, shelter manager at the Humane Society of Monroe County. Ms. Stillwagon became involved in the case when she and her staff helped find and nurse the injured dogs."They’re clearly friendly dogs," Ms. Stillwagon said. "It’s disappointing. These dogs were no bother to anyone."An outspoken critic of many government issues over the years, Mr. Jay said he has probably lost 200 birds, such as geese and ducks, in the past decade from stray dogs wandering onto his property and attacking his livestock."Everybody loves to bring their dogs to the country and dump them," he said. "This is nothing new."He wasn’t familiar with the dogs and he and Mrs. Davis said they don’t know each other. Mr. Jay said the dogs were going after his geese so he rapped them on the head with a rake. Shortly afterward he says he was in his driveway when the dogs, which he said were staring at him from the road, came after him. Mr. Jay said he used his walker to try to keep them away, but then he pulled out his .410 caliber handgun."I pumped a round into it," he said. "The other came at me so I pumped a round into it."Mr. Jay, who has a concealed weapon permit, says he legally carries a handgun for protection. After firing at the dogs, he called Monroe County Central Dispatch.Mrs. Davis describes her dogs as friendly and passive. The larger of the two, Brodie, is a 3½-year-old golden retriever-lab mix. The smaller is Rags, an 8-month-old Australian shepherd that she and Humane Society workers describe as timid.Both dogs survived the shooting and were nursed back to health at the Humane Society office on N. Telegraph Rd. Ms. Stillwagon said Brodie is blind and will need to be retrained with his owners. Rags, which had a large area of his body shaved to remove the pellets from the gunshot blast, is back home."They’re not ferocious," Mrs. Davis said while playing with her two pets. "They’re mild and gentle."Mrs. Davis said Mr. Jay’s story doesn’t make any sense because she, too, has chickens, ducks and turkeys on her property and the dogs never bother them."These dogs are out there with those animals all the time," Mrs. Davis said. "They’ve never bothered any of those animals."Mrs. Davis said she keeps the dogs penned, but they must have escaped. She said she searched for days for her dogs going door-to-door in the area between Carleton and Maybee but couldn’t find them.Ms. Stillwagon and her crew also searched for the dogs and eventually found them injured and bloodied. She said it took thousands of dollars to care for the dogs. One was located at the Monroe County Animal Control pen."We were happy to help those dogs reunite with their family," Ms. Stillwagon said. "I’m proud of my staff."Assistant Prosecutor Brown cited a 1919 law that allows property owners to use force to protect their livestock from dogs. He said owners who lose livestock to predators like wild dogs are entitled to compensation from the county, but Mr. Jay said he has received very little money for his losses over the years.Mrs. Davis believes Mr. Jay was cruel to her dogs and was upset that he will not be charged criminally."That’s unfair," she said, her voice shaking. "That’s very unfair."

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    Regular Member TheSzerdi's Avatar
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    Umm lady, when your dogs have been missing for days and are probably starving, they may be more inclined to "bother the geese."

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    Regular Member Jblack44's Avatar
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    I'm a dog owner andI take 100% responsibility for them. If they are not within my control and something happens to them, it's MY FAULT. I would not fault Mr Jay for what he did.


    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If you have a gun, what in the hell do you have to be paranoid for." Clint Smith, Director of Thunder Ranch

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    Ive had a dog get shot....twice. They killed her the second time, for being on their property. (she was a German Shepard known to wander) Too bad their dog came onto mine afterward.... eye for an eye.

    (edit) spelling

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    Ramius wrote:
    Ive had a dog get shot....twice. They killed her the second time, for being on their property. (she was a German Shepard known to wander) Too bad their dog came onto mine afterward.... eye for an eye.

    So was their dog attacking you? Or did you just shoot it for revenge?

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    Denny wrote:
    Ramius wrote:
    Ive had a dog get shot....twice. They killed her the second time, for being on their property. (she was a German Shepard known to wander) Too bad their dog came onto mine afterward.... eye for an eye.

    So was their dog attacking you? Or did you just shoot it for revenge?
    Thats off topic...please try to keep from wondering.

    PM him if you must know.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    I think this joker "Jan Jay" needs some more training on shot placement and proper ammunition for intended targets.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Well whoever he his, maybe 'shoot to blind' is his intent.

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    apparently a 410 is not an appropriate sd round!
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    lapeer20m wrote:
    apparently a 410 is not an appropriate sd round!
    its not that the 410 itself isnt appropriate... but the type of 410... as far as i have seen, and with what i have shot threw the pistol in question, a 410 with #9 shot would not be my round of choice. Perhaps a 410 with 00 or a 410 slug.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Jblack44 wrote:
    I'm a dog owner andI take 100% responsibility for them. If they are not within my control and something happens to them, it's MY FAULT. I would not fault Mr Jay for what he did.

    I agree. I have two dogs one is a 65 lb chow, pit, shepard, mutt mix and the other is a 115 lb rottweiler, spaniel mix. Both look enough like the so called "dangerous breeds" that if they were to ever get out the police would just shoot them. We recently put up a new fence at a cost of over $2000.00, that we really couldn't afford, because as the dog's owners it is OUR responsibility to make sure they stay on our property regardless of how friendly they are.

    In a related story a good friend of mine had to draw his pistol just yesterday. His dogs were barking outside and when he opened the door to bring them insided a stray pit bull that he'd never seen started running towards him. He said it was like he had amagic spell that created pistolsas his carry gun just appeared in his hand as he shouted at the dog. Luckily the shout was enough to frighten it off and he called animal control to let them know of the stray.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    THway wrote:
    lapeer20m wrote:
    apparently a 410 is not an appropriate sd round!
    its not that the 410 itself isnt appropriate... but the type of 410... as far as i have seen, and with what i have shot threw the pistol in question, a 410 with #9 shot would not be my round of choice. Perhaps a 410 with 00 or a 410 slug.
    To acquire one's target and to know what is beyond it ! PP Handgun and choice of ammo Stopped attack,one is not capable to pick location of assault.If in apt,building or highway rest area the rounds must Not Hurt , Cause injury or stray from target !Over venation ???

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    I see absolutely no issue with the story, except for a dog owner who shows no accountability for her action and assumed the problem must fall on the property owner who protected himself and his livestock, and a Humane Society employee who did not see what happened, only the result, and upheld the owners thought process.
    Glad you're safe, Jan.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

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    '"They’re clearly friendly dogs," Ms. Stillwagon said. "It’s disappointing. These dogs were no bother to anyone."'

    "Mrs. Davis describes her dogs as friendly and passive."

    "They’re not ferocious," Mrs. Davis said while playing with her two pets. "They’re mild and gentle."


    This is almost always the case - gentle, loving, kind animals who would never hurt a flea. You can leave your baby with them. It's the same way when you read a story about a criminal who was killed for attempting to kill someone else. They are almost always a model citizen who was a loving, kind person. And the defender is painted as the morally bankrupt criminal who defended themselves with the most evil of devices - a gun.

    This world's getting flipped upside down - wrong is right and right is wrong.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    After the shooting, Mr. Jay reported it himself to the authorities. The authorities investigated and found the dogs were shot on his property, his livestock were cornered, and there were no conflicting statements. Open and shut case of a law-abiding citizen lawfully protecting himself and his property.

    Mostdogs aresubmissive and gentle with people, but all have territorial and predatory instincts.Lesson to Ms. Davis and Ms. Stillwagon: folks who truly love animals keep them under control so their instincts don't lead them intotrouble.

    Evidently, Ms. Stillwagon's shortcomings extend beyondproperly comprehending this event. She has recently beenfired from herHumane Society job, also.

    http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuyzb8m...l%26id=7242862
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

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    DanM wrote:
    After the shooting, Mr. Jay reported it himself to the authorities. The authorities investigated and found the dogs were shot on his property, his livestock were cornered, and there were no conflicting statements. Open and shut case of a law-abiding citizen lawfully protecting himself and his property.

    Mostdogs aresubmissive and gentle with people, but all have territorial and predatory instincts.Lesson to Ms. Davis and Ms. Stillwagon: folks who truly love animals keep them under control so their instincts don't lead them intotrouble.

    Evidently, Ms. Stillwagon's shortcomings extend beyondproperly comprehending this event. She has recently beenfired from herHumane Society job, also.

    http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuyzb8m...l%26id=7242862








    Mayonnaise: Ok first of all. “IF” I was in the same situation and I felt threatened. I would have done the same thing. Except … the dogs wouldn’t have been going home. When the police arrived, they would have found two dead dogs on my property.

    Secondly, whether the dogs were friendly or not, the dogs should have been on owners’ property.

    Either fenced in or on a chain/leash.

    Where ever a person lives and owns pets, [they] are responsible for the actions of their pets. On or off the property.

    Talk it over ...


    Every Friday, The Evening News shares some of the postings from Your Talk, the newspaper’s online forum.

    Most topics draw a few responses, but some seem to set the board on fire. Here are excerpts from a recent popular online conversation:


    MONROETALKS. COM

    Jan Jay shoots dogs — might be ‘legal’ but won’t make you popular


    Poster BigRedDog asked people to offer their thoughts about an incident in which Exeter Township resident Jan Jay shot two dogs on his property that he says were menacing. Their owner, Daphnia Davis of Ash Township, argues that the action wasn’t necessary.

    Home Depot to close distribution center EDITOR’S NOTE: The opinions expressed on Talk It Over are not those of The Evening News and represent only a portion of the comments expressed on http://www.monroetalks.com. To read all posts, visit the Web site.

    The Chicken:
    It is hard for me to believe that these types of breeds would actually charge someone.

    It is also hard to believe that one would continue to charge despite a gun shot being fired.

    But let’s just say the Mr. Jay’s description of events are true. ...

    Why would you injure an animal and not finish the job? That is cruel ... very cruel ... even if he needed help to search for them.

    NewDawn: We have Animal Control! He should of called them and not taken the matter into his own hands. That is what they get paid for.

    The dogs’ owner would have had to pay a fine and the dogs would not have had to suffer the way they did.

    jbs49238: The pet owner should be suing Mr.

    Jay for the pet bills soon. No evidence of attack ... If you shoot an intruder on your property and fail to kill him, you can be sued for damages. I fail to see a difference here







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    ">Copyright 2010 Monroe Publishing Co. 01/29/2010




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    "NewDawn: We have Animal Control! He should of called them and not taken the matter into his own hands. That is what they get paid for."

    :quirky

    Good Grief


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    Article published at MonroeNews.com on Jan 26, 2010
    Two sides of a story

    For years, Jan Jay says, he has been fighting nuisance dogs that wander onto his rural property in Exeter Township and kill his livestock.But a neighbor *** Person lives one mile away !***[/i]said he’s gone too far after he shot her two dogs at point-blank range, leaving one with pellet marks across its body and another that might be permanently blind."He could have shot in the air," said an emotional Daphnia Davis, *** Discharging firearm into Air Illegal and Unsafe ***[/i] the dogs’ owner, who lives on Exeter Rd. about a mile from the Jay property. "He didn’t have to shoot them in the face."But Mr. Jay said he was defending himself from attack. He also said he was trying to protect his geese from the two dogs that came onto his property last week. He said at first he shooed them away with a rake but opened fire as the two dogs aggressively came toward him."I was petrified," Mr. Jay said.*** Upon going to auto heard noise of flock fighting in glass pen [ entire eleven acres fenced.} Found two dogs mulling goose ,Took rake handle and thunked dogs dropped same and headed for hills [ dogs] . Martin L. King day Called MC-911 Non – emergency number , Told would not take call ? Call AC –Asked for Supervisor Told it was not up to him but LT –MCSD [ Home is 300 plus feet from road , to wait for Police. After so me t i m e]Dogs pacing back and forth at main fence. Car was idling. Decided to close gate and wait for PD , At that point Dogs came at me from INSIDE yard showing teeth and snapping at walker and legs[/i] . [/i]"The dogs attacked me."A Monroe County sheriff’s deputy investigated the incident. On Monday, Monroe County Assistant Prosecutor Michael Brown said he reviewed the case and decided not to file criminal charges because he believes[/b] Mr. Jay did not break any laws."The dogs were shot on his property," Mr. Brown said. "The geese were cornered. There were no conflicting statements."The decision not to file charges was upsetting to Mrs. Davis and Trina Stillwagon, shelter manager at the Humane Society of Monroe County. Ms. Stillwagon became involved in the case when she and her staff helped find and nurse the injured dogs."They’re clearly friendly dogs," Ms. Stillwagon said. "It’s disappointing. These dogs were no bother to anyone."An outspoken critic of many government issues over the years, Mr. Jay said he has probably lost 200 birds, such as geese and ducks, in the past decade from stray dogs wandering onto his property and attacking his livestock."Everybody loves to bring their dogs to the country and dump them," he said. "This is nothing new."He wasn’t familiar with the dogs and he and Mrs. Davis said they don’t know each other. Mr. Jay said the dogs were going after his geese so he rapped them on the head with a rake. Shortly afterward he says he was in his driveway when the dogs, which he said were staring at him from the road, came after him. Mr. Jay said he used his walker to try to keep them away, but then he pulled out his .410 caliber handgun."I pumped a round into it," he said. "The other came at me so I pumped a round into it."Mr. Jay, who has a concealed weapon permit, says he legally carries a handgun for protection. After firing at the dogs, he called Monroe County Central Dispatch.Mrs. Davis describes her dogs as friendly and passive. The larger of the two, Brodie, is a 3½-year-old golden retriever-lab mix. The smaller is Rags, an 8-month-old Australian shepherd that she and Humane Society workers describe as timid.Both dogs survived the shooting and were nursed back to health at the Humane Society office on N. Telegraph Rd. Ms. Stillwagon said Brodie is blind and will need to be retrained with his owners. Rags, which had a large area of his body shaved to remove the pellets from the gunshot blast, is back home."They’re not ferocious," Mrs. Davis said while playing with her two pets. "They’re mild and gentle."Mrs. Davis said Mr. Jay’s story doesn’t make any sense because she, too, has chickens, ducks and turkeys on her property and the dogs never bother them."These dogs are out there with those animals all the time," Mrs. Davis said. "They’ve never bothered any of those animals."Mrs. Davis said she keeps the dogs penned, but they must have escaped. She said she searched for days for her dogs going door-to-door in the area between Carleton and Maybee but couldn’t find them.Ms. Stillwagon and her crew also searched for the dogs and eventually found them injured and bloodied. She said it took thousands of dollars to care for the dogs. One was located at the Monroe County Animal Control pen."We were happy to help those dogs reunite with their family," Ms. Stillwagon said. "I’m proud of my staff."Assistant Prosecutor Brown cited a 1919 law that allows property owners to use force to protect their livestock from dogs. He said owners who lose livestock to predators like wild dogs are entitled to compensation from the county, but Mr. Jay said he has received very little money for his losses over the years.Mrs. Davis believes Mr. Jay was cruel to her dogs and was upset that he will not be charged criminally."That’s unfair," she said, her voice shaking. "That’s very unfair." Dogs appear on s cc TV for five days prior to Monday ,No tags ,no rabies, and no call to MC animal Control till after ?[ cctv not checked till after .[/i]
    [/i]

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    ooppss
    [/i][/i][/i][/i][/b][/i][/i]

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    After looking at the picture of the owner and the dogs in question... I can see how now how the dogs got off the property and why the owner did not go looking for them.

    My only question is, will the owner of the dogs be investigated? How many times has her animals escaped her property? How many times did she go after and retrieve them? What condition is her home in?

    Those are all questions that any competent investigative reporter would think of and investigate....

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    Well, I probably am old-school on this...

    The way I grew up, you keep your property under control. If you are not capable of doing so, and your property creates begins to impede my enjoyment of my property, I have the right to correct the situation, as I see fit.

    If you don't want your dogs shot, the solution is very simple. Keep them off of my property.

    To few people want to accept responsibility for anything. This woman should have been apologizing to Mr. Jay for the considerable inconvenience her dogs had caused him, and asking him how much the ammo cost, so she could reimburse him.



    Am I off base here?


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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    You're not off base in the least.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Would it be wrong if this Mr. Jan Jay were to now go and "finish" the job?

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    dougwg wrote:
    Would it be wrong if this Mr. Jan Jay were to now go and "finish" the job?
    Depends on your definition of "finish".
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    taxwhat wrote:


    jbs49238: The pet owner should be suing Mr.

    Jay for the pet bills soon. No evidence of attack ... If you shoot an intruder on your property and fail to kill him, you can be sued for damages. I fail to see a difference here





    If this guy really thinks its acceptable for an armed burglar to sue you if you shoot him inside your own home, then he can suck a fart directly out of my cornhole.

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