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Thread: Any experience with Front Sight?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    I've seen some stuff on TV about Front Sight in NV, and saw an ad in recent NRA mags for a special offer (4 days training + XD45 Tactical+ other goodies for $1,200). It's tempting; the XD's worth about $500, so the rest is going for about $700. Nevertheless, it's still a good chunk of change, especially when you factor in travel to "scenic" NV, hotel, meals, etc.

    So, does anybody have any experience (good or bad) with Front Sight? Did you find the training worthwhile? Worth the $$$? Thanks.
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Eeyore wrote:
    I've seen some stuff on TV about Front Sight in NV, and saw an ad in recent NRA mags for a special offer (4 days training + XD45 Tactical+ other goodies for $1,200). It's tempting; the XD's worth about $500, so the rest is going for about $700. Nevertheless, it's still a good chunk of change, especially when you factor in travel to "scenic" NV, hotel, meals, etc.

    So, does anybody have any experience (good or bad) with Front Sight? Did you find the training worthwhile? Worth the $$$? Thanks.
    If you just want great training you can get 4 days at front sight for under $500, but I don't think that includes the gun. All the money for these sales goes to the Second Amendment March. The certificates were donate to us by Front sight as a fund raiser.

    http://secondamendmentmarch.americom...-Training.aspx

    I have heard that the instruction is top-notch. Never heard anything bad about the training. The owner has had some business problems that he seems to be working out. But as far as the training it's worth it.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    If you just want great training you can get 4 days at front sight for under $500, but I don't think that includes the gun.
    According to their website, the 4-day defensive handgun course is normally $2,000. How are you getting it for $500?
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    I have never been to front sight however, please google them and "scam".

    They are in bankruptcy protection right now, some of their members and investors have also sued them.

    Also google Front Sight and Scientology, some interesting things you should read about their association with this cult.

    I have also heard there are some great instructors -- the course can be worth it, but do not fall for the sales tactic that will ask you to give $5000-$500,000 for a facility that does not exist. This is what the owner is being sued for.

    I just recommend that you do research on the net before handing over $5,000 for a membership and promises. Perhaps the owner means well, perhaps he is a scam artist. I do not know.

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    I have attended the following courses at Front Sight:

    4 day defensive handgun course, 2 day defensive handgun course, 2 day skill builders defensive handgun course, 2 day practicle rifle course and the 4 day tacticle shotgun course.

    The training is great, the advertising can get old but I just ignor it.

    You can get a certificate to attend a 4 day defensive handgun course on ebay for about $125 and up, see here http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trk...All-CategoriesandFrontSighthas specials like you are talking about all the time such as this membership one http://www.frontsight.com/3.asp.

    Look at their site it has quite a bit of information.

    I highly recommend their training.

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    Pace wrote:
    I have never been to front sight however, please google them and "scam".

    They are in bankruptcy protection right now, some of their members and investors have also sued them.

    Also google Front Sight and Scientology, some interesting things you should read about their association with this cult.

    I have also heard there are some great instructors -- the course can be worth it, but do not fall for the sales tactic that will ask you to give $5000-$500,000 for a facility that does not exist. This is what the owner is being sued for.

    I just recommend that you do research on the net before handing over $5,000 for a membership and promises. Perhaps the owner means well, perhaps he is a scam artist. I do not know.




    Google comes up with lots of things. Like these links that might be you?



    http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=652237



    http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651898


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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I' was greatly dismayed to find out about the Scientology link with front Sight's owner, but even MORE disturbed by the fact that he's running a pretty dicey business model and has been sued for fraud and breach of contract by investors in the recent past...

    And even WITH all these dubious dealings, he still is a major sponsor for MAY gun-rights organizations, like NCGR here in NC, the JPFO, and even the Alex Jones radio show. You'd think that people in the gun rights movement, and anti-NWO folks like Jones would want to distance themselves from a fraudster and cultist like Mr. Piazza.

    I'm not sure what to think, but I CAN say that his progressively increasing fee structure, advertising style, and shameless celebrity name-dropping DOES seem to be rather Hubbard-esque.

    They are not getting my money, that's for sure. I won't even see a Tom Cruise movie in the theater because I can't stand the idea of putting money in the pockets of that particular cult. And even if they WERE legit, I can't justify flying to Nevada several times a year for "training".

    I just hope this thread doesn't get OCDO put on some kind of "Scientology Hit Squad" list.

    We're already on ENOUGH lists... :shock:
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Hey, Dreamer, Xenu was pro 2A so cut them some slack...



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    I don't think I'd want to be associated with Alex Jones if I was trying to run confidence scams.

    I've never heard a bad review of this guy's training. I've heard about the scientology, etc. but never heard anyone say they got bad training. I guess he can do what he wants as long as the product he's selling is what you need.

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    Yeah, I have been a Front Sight member for about 3 years now, they have never brought up anything about any religion, they only talk about the 2nd amendment and gun training and things you need to know if you are involved in a shooting and their biggest emphasis is to how to avoid getting in those situations but to be prepared if something bad does happen.

    Any of the litigation information and Scientology information on the web is old and some of the links are no longer active.

    I have attended 5 courses at 5 different times and have never seen Dr Piazza. The only contact is his emails and blog reports and broadcast phone calls reminding people of specials or advertisements.

    The only information about Dr Piazza and Scientology that I know ofis what I have reasearched on the web, and it is all old information and says that Dr Piazza claims to be Catholic but has attended some Scientology meetings and uses some of thesame type ofmarketing that they use.

    There have been two people that have tried to tie Front Sight to Sicentology and both have been sued by Dr Piazza and both caseshave been settled out of court. Out of thousands that have attended the courses there that seems like small potatoes to me.

    Dr Piazza did have big plans for a community at Front Sight that has yet to come to fruition, however those plans are still in place, will they ever come to fruition? I don't know, and for what I use Front Sight for it doesn't matter to me. I hope the place succeeds, at least for what it is now if not his whole dream because it is great training and I have a great time whenever I go, heck what is not fun about eating up hundreds of rounds of ammunition especially when it is in a controlled training atmosphere?

    For training I highly recommend it, would I invest in the community? Not at this time. Would I buy a Membership to Front Sight? Yes if I could afford it, but would not pay the full price since there seems to be some sort of special going on all the time. For example, last time I attended he was offering a membership for $5000, but you got one free so two could get a membership for $2500 each, then the courses that were listed in that membership you could attend free of charge for the rest of your life.

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    What is it about these civilian gun training centers and financial troubles? Jeff Cooper had troubles at Gunsite and now this stuff about the "FrontSight" place. Anyway if I had the time I might shoot defensive pistol competitions, but I for one don't have the time or the wherewithal to travel to FrontSight, and if I have four or five days of vacation and 5 grand I am going to take about 1500 bucks to Wheeling Island and see if I can turn it into 10 grand at blac kjack and Four Card Poker.

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    Walther wrote:
    I have attended the following courses at Front Sight:

    4 day defensive handgun course, 2 day defensive handgun course, 2 day skill builders defensive handgun course, 2 day practicle rifle course and the 4 day tacticle shotgun course.

    The training is great, the advertising can get old but I just ignor it.

    You can get a certificate to attend a 4 day defensive handgun course on ebay for about $125 and up, see here http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trk...All-CategoriesandFrontSighthas specials like you are talking about all the time such as this membership one http://www.frontsight.com/3.asp.

    Look at their site it has quite a bit of information.

    I highly recommend their training.
    +1

    I attended the 4 day defensive handgun course by purchasing a certificate off of ebay for about 200 bucks. Those certificates are only good for your first course. For that price it was well worth it.

    As far as their lifetime memberships go, I question his business model. It seems to be based on the prospect of never ending exponential growth. My advice would be skip the membership, but take advantage of the training by buying a certificate while you still can.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    I can think of better ways to spend that kind of money....
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Yeah. Like at Wheeling Island. Hey, if you play 3-card poker, bet the "Pair Plus" by itself. Really. And don't stay at the casino hotel, go three miles east to St. Clairsville and check into the America's Best Value Inn. I'd take five grand to Wheeling before I would take a hundred to Front Sight. At least I might - and almost always do - wind up with nearly as much as I came with and perhaps a bit more.

    Really, I have the brochures, and this "Doctor" Pizza looks like a supercilious A-hole to me. And I took their little quiz and sorry guys, but I think a .380, a .38 or a 9mm is plenty good. Front Sight is a ".4x+" snob site. (I am not disparaging those who carry .40 cal minimum. If you feel .40 up is necessary to protect you, who am I to judge? I can shoot ful-house .44 Mag one-handed, but I am quite comfortable with a .380 tucked into my belt or under my armpit, TYVM).

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    This is what I wrote about my experience there on another forum:

    Some of you might have heard of a firearms training school called front sight (http://www.frontsight.com) outside of Vegas. Well, last Wednesday I left to attend their 4 day defensive handgun course.

    I had heard a lot of good things about them (from sources other than their website). Their courses are ridiculously expensive, 2,000 dollars for a 4 day course. They also sell various lifetime memberships that allow you to take certain courses as many times as you want (which courses depend on what sort of membership you get). Anyways, when people buy these lifetime memberships, they also give them certificates that are good for a free course. The only catch is you can only use one certificate, if you want to take another class you have to pay. The certificates go for around 200 bucks on ebay, so myself and a friend bought some and signed up (used live cashback to make it more of a slick deal). I booked everything on priceline for the trip. 6 nights / 7 days at the stratosphere, a rental car, and round trip flight from DC to Vegas came out to 464 per person. The course goes from Friday to Monday, but we decided to stay until Wednesday night to have some fun after the course. There was also a 50 dollar background check fee, and you have to bring 800 rounds of ammo, which comes out to about 180 bucks for 9mm at walmart. That brings the total to 894. I also ended up paying a 40 dollar resort fee at the hotel, and another 180 dollars for insurance, so 1114 after that, plus food, gas, and misc. Still way under the 2,000 dollars alone that it would cost to attend the class.

    Our flight left at 6 pm and we had a 2 hour layover in Denver. That flight ended up getting delayed. We then got stuck in traffic on las vegas blvd after we arrived. I think we got to bed sometime after 3 AM Thursday night, so we only got about 2 hours of sleep.


    Hotel:




    Front Sight is located outside of Pahrump, about an hour west of Las Vegas. It's out in the middle of the desert with nothing around. If I ever attend another class I'll be staying in Pahrump and not vegas. That extra hour of driving really sucks when you're already out there for 12 hours a day.

    Confused GPS:




    Entrance to Front Sight:





    Lots of bullets! We could only bring 11 lbs on the plane, so we had to ship the rest to ourselves at the hotel.




    The instructors all had pretty impressive resumes. Lots of former military (usually Marine Corp) and law enforcement with extensive backgrounds in firearms training. Our instructor was from Venezuela. I don't remember the specifics but he was involved a lot with training people to fight in Columbia.




    We also had two assistant instructors, one was a horse girl who drove a Challenger, the other was a guy who was involved in some kind of security company in Las Vegas.

    There were between 300 and 400 people there that weekend. There were 40 people per class, divided into two groups. Everyone was paired up and while one person shot, the other one would stand behind them to coach and watch for safety issues. I was really surprised at how diverse the crowd was. I expected to see a lot of males in my age group. I'd say about 15-20% were females. There was an 11 year old kid in my class (him and his mom were taking it together). There was also a father with two daughters in our class, one 18 and the other one a bit younger. The oldest in the class was probably in his 70's.

    At the range on the first day:







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    It was a hot weekend. It's true what they say about it being a dry heat. Even at 100 degrees it didn't feel that bad. You just have to make sure you drink a lot of water.




    The first day started out with a lecture on Front Sights purpose and the five levels of competence. Most people fall under unconciously incompetent. The instructor who gave the lectures was a retired sherrifs deputy and had some pretty amazing stories, which made the lectures pretty entertaining. After that we hit the range until lunch time. After lunch we had another lecture, "Moral and Ethical Decisions Associated with the Use of Deadly Force", then range activities for the rest of the day. The first day we probably only shot 100 rounds. We learned chamber/mag checks, how to properly draw you're weapon, trigger reset, sight alignment, sight picture, and trigger control. No concealment on the first day.

    Day two, the entire morning was range time. Despite being out there for about 12 hours a day, everything went by really fast and is kind of blurred together. I think we were still shooting from OWB int he morning, and switched to concealment in the afternoon. After lunch we had another lecture, this one about civil liability. The rest of the day was spent at the range.

    Day three was mostly shooting. We only had one lecture, which was on tactical movement. Later in the day we would learn how to properly go around a corner, or through a door. Just learning the basics of how to clear a house, which sucks to have to do alone. If you don't have a reason to clear your house (a family member is elsewhere in the house), then stay where you are and call the police. Definitely learned some interesting things, like if you're looking around a corner of a wall, don't stand up against that wall. Bullets don't deflect like a pool ball would on a table at the same angle they hit. They bounce off at a very narrow angle to the wall, almost sliding along the wall. You want to stand back 5 or 10 feet from the wall you are using as cover to avoid getting hit by a ricochet.

    Learning how to go around corners and through doors:







    Day three was actually a really long day. We finished up around 5:30, but had to be back at 7:30 for a night shoot. We had a short lecture about using your flashlight, then we hit the range to shoot in the dark.

    Day four is again pretty much all shooting. I don't think we learned to many new things on the fourth day. Shooting drills would be something like two shots to the thoracic cavity from various distances (3, 5, 7, 10, and 15 yards). It was usually timed. The target would flip around for between 1.5 and 2.xx seconds, depending on what distance your shooting from. Having to draw from concealment and get off two shots to the thoracic cavity is not easy, especially if your concealment is good.

    They recommend a concealment garmet like a vest to wear overtop of your OWB holster. It may be faster to draw from a setup like that, but almost no one (at least that I know), carries that way. My friend and I decided to carry concealed like we do all the time, IWB with a shirt over top (crossbreed supertuck holster). It definitly made stuff harder. An extra quarter second on your draw time is huge. I had problems with getting a good grip on the gun from my holster. The leather backing prevented my thumb from being behind the gun. After about 10 minutes of using it I had already rubbed the skin from my knuckle on my thumb, and bent my thumb nail back. I put a bandaid on it and put up with it. Later I decided to cut off some of the leather, which helped alot. I could finally get my thumb behind the grip, even if it was a little bit low.

    We also did failure to stop drills. You'd have your normal amount of time to do two shots to the thoracic cavity, then the target would flit around. If it flipped around again and faced you, you'd have to take a shot to the cranialoccular cavity. I don't remember the time limit for the second shot. Other times we would do a designated cranialoccular shot.

    To help with accuracy, we did a drill called the ragged hole drill. They put stickers on the target they call pasties. You have all the time you need, and you aim at the bottom edge of the pastie from 7 yards. You fire five shots, and the goal is to make one ragged hole with the five shots. Mine are on the left:




    One of the coolest things we did was the simulator. They have a house you have to clear. An instructor clips a caribiner on your belt and goes in with you, holding on, so you don't turn around and shoot him. He tells you the scenario is your mother is inside screaming, go! You have to go through and clear the house. As soon as you open the door theres a bad guy staring at you. You procede to clear that room and enter an open doorway, which you have to do quickly after you've "sliced the pie". I think there was a good guy in that room, a family member or something like that (someone had put a bullet between her eyes before). The next room in you first see a man in a suit. Early in the day this same picture had been used as a target, so alot of people shoot him. If you actually took the time to see both his hands, you'd see he only has a cell phone. The next person over is supposed to be your mom taken hostage with the bad guy behind her. One shot to the cranial occular cavity, then one more bad guy next to him. I shot everyone I was supposed to, all hits, but it takes a lot of time when you have to enter a room and figure out who to shoot. If it were real life I feel like I would have been shot already if they saw me come in.

    Another fun drill was a one on one competition, single elimination. This was to try to add some stress. You stood next to another shooter, and you each had three targets. The first was a hostage taker shot, then two regular shots. They had metal targets and you had to make them drop. It sucked because sometimes you'd hit it but it wouldn't fall or spin.






    We learned the three types of malfunctions, how to recognize them, and how to clear them. It was pretty difficult to clear them in the amount of time you had. I can't imagine having to do it under the stress of a real gunfight.

    Heres a drill where we had to shoot multiple targets:

    Drawing






    Scanning as part of after action drills:



    Reholstering





    They packed in so much information in those four days. It's one of those things where you realize how much there is that you don't know. I now have tons of stuff I know I need to practice at home. One of the things that surprised me is that they said on average about 30% of the class will actually graduate. Fortunately I passed and graduated, but my friend didn't. It was still completely worth it for him though. I think our holsters really hampered us during the test, but oh well. No point in training different then how you actually carry.

    Anyone who carries or has a gun for self defense should really look into getting some training like this. I've never done a concealed carry course (I just used my M16 qual as proof of competency), but I seriously doubt it gives you the skills you'll need in a gunfight. In one of the lectures they talk about how people buy a gun and think thats all they need, that they will rise to the occasion if someone is trying to kill them. It's just not true, you lower yourself to the occasion. They call it the rule of 50%. Under the stress of fighting for your life, you'll only be 50% (at best) as good as you are when you train. Not that its impossible to win if you don't have training, people do it all the time. The will to survive is strong. But why not put the odds in your favor?

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    for that kind of money, you would think the ammo would be included.....it's bad enough they have a range in hottest place in the USA > 4 Day course standing under the burning hot sun.... can anyone say heat stroke...:?
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Glock34 wrote:
    for that kind of money, you would think the ammo would be included.....it's bad enough they have a range in hottest place in the USA > 4 Day course standing under the burning hot sun.... can anyone say heat stroke...:?
    They constantly harp on drinking enough. They provide gatoraid and water.

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    I see Dr. Pizzola prefers to teach the Weaver Stance over the Isocoles. Well, good. Personally I think the Weaver is superior. More flexible, not as uni-directional as the Isocoles. Offhand better able to get to the reload mag, etc.

    I guess if you were never in the military this camp would maybe be useful. But I already know how to clear a room. And I hope I never have to.

    BTW if it comes to clearing a room in house to house fighting, I hold with Soviet doctrine: Four grenades, one to each corner. Problem solved. Hard to argue with the technique that brought down Berlin.

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    Really, I have the brochures, and this "Doctor" Pizza looks like a supercilious A-hole to me. And I took their little quiz and sorry guys, but I think a .380, a .38 or a 9mm is plenty good. Front Sight is a ".4x+" snob site. (I am not disparaging those who carry .40 cal minimum. If you feel .40 up is necessary to protect you, who am I to judge? I can shoot ful-house .44 Mag one-handed, but I am quite comfortable with a .380 tucked into my belt or under my armpit, TYVM).
    Not really so, their moto is: "Any gun will do if you will do" They don't disparage any gun that you bring, even HI Points.:PThere is some good natured ribbing going on between makes and models but that is small and only in fun. I think the guns that they bag on the most are the Glocks.

    mpg999 that was a good report on what goes on down there.

    I am also the other way arround, I would rather spend $5000 on something that could protect my family or myself and save theit life than I would waste $100 gambling giving it to some rich dude.

    That being said there is no reason to spend that kind of money because of the specials and certificates available on line.

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    As I mentioned, I would do ones own research on the matter. If you felt that I was implying the guy was a scam artist, I was not, I was asking for people to do their own research. I want to apologize if anyone felt I was making a judgment here on Mr. Piazza. Many people love him, and some people say he is a fraud. I have no idea which one it is.

    That being said, he is running a business, lets not forget -- and his business is selling memberships. He wants to get you in there, then do a sales seminar on why you should join and spend upwards of $250,000 to be a member. These are the same tactics used in almost any up-sell. You are there, you had a great time, your adrenaline is rushing and they tell you that if you "act right now" then you can be a member, be part of the club, have friends...

    Is Mr. Piazza a fire-arms expert? Probably not. However, he is a very smart business person, who realized that he could make a business on this and has hired some really good Grade A++ firearms instructors. I have a lot of respect for that, as that is the American Tradition.

    Is his business in bankruptcy? It seems so. Does that make him a bad guy? No. Many, many Americans and businesses go into bankruptcy unfortunately, especially in this economy.

    Again, my apologies if you felt that I was claiming that he was a fraud, which I was not. I was asking people to do their own research, talk to people. I do recommend again, that no one ever makes a decision about a high-paid membership to anything without discussing with family, waiting a few days. I don't care if its FrontSight or the Disney Book Club.


    Dreamer wrote:
    I' was greatly dismayed to find out about the Scientology link with front Sight's owner, but even MORE disturbed by the fact that he's running a pretty dicey business model and has been sued for fraud and breach of contract by investors in the recent past...

    And even WITH all these dubious dealings, he still is a major sponsor for MAY gun-rights organizations, like NCGR here in NC, the JPFO, and even the Alex Jones radio show. You'd think that people in the gun rights movement, and anti-NWO folks like Jones would want to distance themselves from a fraudster and cultist like Mr. Piazza.

    I'm not sure what to think, but I CAN say that his progressively increasing fee structure, advertising style, and shameless celebrity name-dropping DOES seem to be rather Hubbard-esque.

    They are not getting my money, that's for sure. I won't even see a Tom Cruise movie in the theater because I can't stand the idea of putting money in the pockets of that particular cult. And even if they WERE legit, I can't justify flying to Nevada several times a year for "training".

    I just hope this thread doesn't get OCDO put on some kind of "Scientology Hit Squad" list.

    We're already on ENOUGH lists... :shock:

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