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Thread: 3 OC Interactions

  1. #1
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    I had to title my vehicle which meant a visit to both the Sheriff's office and the Clerk's office. CC is legally prohibited at both locations.

    After a few minutes interacting with one of the clerks at the sheriff's office, THE sheriff himself (not a deputy) comes out to address me.

    Sheriff: Are you with the service?
    Me: No
    S: You can't carry in here.
    Me: I'm sorry, but I can't conceal carry in here. I'm open carrying.
    S: This is a county building, you're not allowed to carry in here.
    Me: Your sign, as well as the law, only specifies CC, not OC.
    S: It's against the law to carry in here, you'll have to put that back in your vehicle.
    Me: Are you asking me to do it now, or in the future.
    S: Future.

    So I got his name and I've already written a letter. I'm going to drop it in the mail tonight. I hope this can be resolved amicable. If not, I'll take addition steps--not to mention actively campaigning against him this fall.

    Next, I went to the courthouse to visit the Clerk's office. I was standing in line as a man approached me.

    Man: I couldn't help but notice you're carrying. Can I ask why?
    Me: For personal protection--I can't CC in here so I'm OCing.
    Man: I'm a magistrate here, you're not allowed to do that.
    Me: I'm sorry, but I know my rights and I've researched the laws; CC is banned, OC is legal.

    The man simply shrugged and went his own way. I thought for sure he was going to call the police, but he didn't. I really wish I had gotten his name so I know who to vote for this fall--or rather, who NOT to vote for.

    I was walking back to my truck when a guy on the street:

    Man: Who do you work for?
    Me: I'm a teacher.
    Man: Are the kids that bad?
    Me: Haha no, I DO NOT carry at school. However, I do carry for personal protection.
    Man: Oh cool, didn't know you could carry like that.
    Me: Yeah, it's definitely legal. Do you carry?
    Man: No, I'm an ex-con. I wouldn't trust myself with one anyways.

    Haha I think we can all be glad he doesn't carry! Anyways, I'm very anxious to see how my correspondence with the Sheriff is going to work out. I'll keep you all posted.

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    Fantastic!

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    Actually, CCW I believe is legal in a county clerk's office. From the KSP web site:

    http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/conceal.htm#restrict

    • Police station or sheriff's office.
    • Detention facility, prison or jail.
    • Courthouse (Court of Justice, courtroom or court proceeding).
    • County, municipal, or special district governing body meetings.
    • Meeting of governing body of a county, municipality, or special district.
    • General Assembly session, including committee meetings.
    • Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense beer or alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to that purpose.
    • Elementary or secondary school facilities (without the consent of school authorities).
    • Child-caring facilities, day care centers, or any certified family child care home.
    • Areas within an airport where restricted access is controlled by the inspection of persons or property.
    • Any place where federal law prohibits the carrying of a firearm.
    Sheriff's office is banned, no mention of county clerk.


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    http://ag.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/A0497C.../0/OAG9709.htm

    We recognize access to county offices and local courts may as a practical matter be obtained through shared building entrances and hallways. We can find no authority, however, for the proposition that local courts may ban deadly weapons in county offices located in the same courthouse or courthouse annex as those local courts. Indeed, we note that ownership, operation, and maintenance of a county courthouse, generally, are county functions. KRS 26A.090(6); 26A.110; 26A.130; 67.080(2)(b); 67.130.

    Of course, the legislative body of a county may act pursuant to KRS 237.115 to prohibit those who are licensed to carry concealed deadly weapons from carrying concealed deadly weapons in portions of buildings owned, leased or controlled by the county. See OAG 96-39. Additionally, a license to carry a concealed deadly weapon does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed deadly weapon into a police station or sheriff's office, a detention facility or jail, or a meeting of the governing body of the county. KRS 237.110(12)(a), (b), and (d). Finally, with respect to the authority of the county to prohibit the open carrying of deadly weapons in a courthouse or courthouse annex, we note the ordinance prohibition embodied in KRS 65.870 extends only to “any part of the field of regulation of the transfer, ownership, possession, carrying or transportation of firearms, ammunition, or components of firearms or combination thereof.

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    @Springer--exactly! And apparently Scott County/Georgetown voted to ban CONCEALED weapons from the Clerk's office which is in the old courthouse. Even though they legally banned CC, they acknowledged that there's no criminal penalty for doing so.

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    After almost 2 weeks of not hearing back from the Sheriff, I gave him a phone call. He said that he referred the matter to the county attorney and that the attorney said that open carry IS permitted in the Sheriff's office.

    I don't know if it was the Sheriff reiterating what the attorney said or if it was his own interpretation, but he said that if the county fiscal court passes a ban on firearms in the future, then it will be no longer legal to carry in county buildings. We, of course, know this cannot be the case per KRS 65.870.

    To sum up, I asked him once more, "In the future, if I open carry in the Sheriff's office, I will be permitted to do so?" He replied, "Yes, as of right now." (Implying this may not be the case in the future?)

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    I seem to recall a certain conversation that goes:

    Me: Your sign, as well as the law, only specifies CC, not OC.
    S: It's against the law to carry in here, you'll have to put that back in your vehicle.
    This is a statement of fact, not opinion. Why would the Sheriff make such a statement? I think a simple, "No, it's not against the law, but I would prefer you didn't." would be in order.

    Again, here we go with the statement of fact:

    but he said that if the county fiscal court passes a ban on firearms in the future, then it will be no longer legal to carry in county buildings. We, of course, know this cannot be the case per KRS 65.870.
    Why would a Sheriff make such a statement of fact? I think a simple, "It's legal to carry in here." would be in order.

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    UPDATE: I took a stroll past the Sheriff's office today and noticed that the previous (and legal) sign that said "Concealed Carry of Firearms Not Permitted" (or to that effect) had been removed and a new one that says "All Forms of Weapons Prohibited From Premises" took its place.

    I called up the Sheriff once more told him that I noticed that a new sign hung in the window that seemed contradictory to what he had told me earlier.

    Sheriff: I don't want anyone dangerous coming in here and shooting up the place.
    Me: I understand where you're coming from, I would sure hate for something bad to happen, however, I don't think you are coming from a Constitutional perspective.
    Sheriff: I'm not claiming to (YIKES).
    Me: I understand that you're up for re-election this fall.
    Sheriff: That's right.
    Me: I would just assume vote for someone who actually knows & respects the law instead of a Sheriff who doesn't know the extent of his authority.
    Sheriff: You have to understand that I'm trying to keep people safe.

    Aaaaand our argument went on in a circle. He did stress the fact that I am permitted to OC in the Sheriff's office and that OC is permitted but he refused to take the sign down--like the sign is going to stop someone from going postal.

    Looks like I'll have to take the next step and contact the county judge.

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    That must be a violation of his Oath of Office. Should we be running laugh tracks in the background when the swearing in ceremony takes place after Sheriffs elections?

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    Should I perform a citizen's arrest haha. Anyways, great find! I don't know if it would apply to me as he stressed that I CAN OC there and no one is going to stop me from doing so. Still, he is knowingly depriving others of the right to carry. I did email the judge executive for the county. We'll see where this goes.

    Plus, it seems like it would take an actual LEO to prohibit someone from OCing in a county building, not just a sign. I dunno, just a thought.

  11. #11
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    Statesman wrote:
    That must be a violation of his Oath of Office. Should we be running laugh tracks in the background when the swearing in ceremony takes place after Sheriffs elections?
    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/070-00/CHAPTER.HTM
    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/070-00/010.PDF

    70.010 Special oath of sheriff.

    (1) In addition to the oath prescribed in the Constitution, every sheriff shall take the following oath: "I, A B, do swear that I will do right, as well to the poor as to the rich, in all things belonging to my office as sheriff; that I will do no wrong to any one for any gift, reward or promise, nor for favor or hatred, and in all things I will faithfully and impartially execute the duties of my office according to the best of my skill and judgment, so help me God."

    (2) The oath specified in subsection (1) of this section may be administered by any person who may administer an oath pursuant to KRS 62.020. A person shall not administer the oath specified in subsection (1) of this section to himself or herself.
    Effective: June 26, 2007
    History: Amended 2007 Ky. Acts ch. 132, sec. 2, effective June 26, 2007. -- Amended 1978 Ky. Acts ch. 384, sec. 157, effective June 17, 1978. -- Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October 1, 1942, from Ky. Stat. sec. 4555.

    Impartial: –adjective not partial or biased; fair; just: an impartial judge.

    It seems the decision to post anti gun signs in conflict with the state constitution, was biased against lawful gun owners.

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    @Navy

    Yes it is. There are other controversies revolving around Bobby Hammons too. I plan to take an active role campaigning for whoever's running against him this fall. I emailed Tony Hampton, one of the Republicans running against him about OC and haven't heard back from him yet.

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    The executive judge has gotten back with me and said that he confirmed my beliefs concerning the situation were CORRECT. He advised me that he has no authority over the sheriff that I should probably contact the county attorney to encourage the sheriff in the right direction.

    If that doesn't work, I don't know where to go from there. File a complaint with KSP?

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    langzaiguy wrote:
    The executive judge has gotten back with me and said that he confirmed my beliefs concerning the situation were CORRECT. He advised me that he has no authority over the sheriff that I should probably contact the county attorney to encourage the sheriff in the right direction.

    If that doesn't work, I don't know where to go from there. File a complaint with KSP?
    I would just contact the Attorney General's office and be done with it.

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    @Unfettered: I want to go up the chain of command first. It seems like you get more attention and more action at the bottom of the ladder than you do at the top.

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    Sec. 10-8. Deadly weapons within public buildings owned or occupied by the city.
    (a) Prohibition. In order to protect city employees and the general public, no person, except
    sworn law enforcement officers, shall carry concealed deadly weapons in city owned or leased
    buildings. Excepted from this prohibition are city owned buildings used for the private
    residence of individuals.
    (b) Penalty. Persons in violation of this section may be denied access to the city owned or
    leased building. Once access is gained, the offender may be removed from the building.
    Employees of the city may be subjected to personnel action for violation of this section. There
    shall be no criminal sanction for violation of this section.
    (Ord. No. 97-007, § 1, 2, 2-20-97)

    I know the ordinance says "city-owned", not "county-owned", but I couldn't find any county ordinances, only city. And yes, it should probably should be written as "public-owned".

    I fully realize that The People are above all of them, however, I can't file a complaint with The People. I still think it would be more effective to "work my way up the ladder".

    UPDATE: I talked to the county attorney and he initially agreed with the sheriff on the issue. I brought up KRS 522.020 and he said that he'd look into it, he would view the sign himself, and he would discuss it with the sheriff personally.

    I'm not too optimistic about working with them. Right now, I'm unsure of where to go from here. Should I ask for a hearing from the county fiscal court? File a complaint with the AG office? File a complaint with KSP? Contact my county magistrate? The county judge-executive was pretty helpful, I think I might shoot him a few questions.

  17. #17
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    Oh yeah, I'm also thinking of writing a letter to the editor to get some more public attention on the matter.

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    I should also mention that the County Attorney seemed to agree that the sign is unenforceable. The point at which we disagreed was that I believed the sign should be taken down whereas he believed the sign was fine as long as it's not acted upon.

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    langzaiguy wrote:
    I should also mention that the County Attorney seemed to agree that the sign is unenforceable. The point at which we disagreed was that I believed the sign should be taken down whereas he believed the sign was fine as long as it's not acted upon.
    perhaps a protest with signs are in order? That's harder to ignore.

  20. #20
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    Didn't Scott County just have a similar hassle with firearms in their parks? I think a good case could be made that county officials are deliberately and willfully depriving Kentucky citizens of the rights guaranteed by our Kentucky Constitution. I complain that we need some penalties for officials who continue to post anti-gun signs based on nothing more than their own whim with no care that their little made-up law is unenforceable and illegal, because they know they can misuse the power of their official authority to effectively make their word law. Well, it looks like KRS 522.xxx DOES provide significant penalties.

    I'd get everything I could in writing, and I'd record every conversation. At the very least, it'll be extremely useful at election time. Get someone good to run against him, or better yet, run yourself. As long as one party to a conversation knows the recording is being made, it's not eavesdropping in Kentucky.

    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/526-00/010.PDF

    If you have a good sheriff, and with an educated electorate you should, then it's usually good that the sheriff is the highest law enforcement authority in the county, but when you get some authoritarian ninny with no respect for the law or the oath, then it can be a serious problem.

    I completely agree with trying to work locally to put pressure on the sheriff to do the right thing. It's educational, so it's never a waste of time. The Kentucky Attorney General is the last resort when county officials are violating Kentucky law. I'd talk with your magistrate and county judge executive. The best time to do that would probably be the next fiscal court meeting. If they seem resistant to do the right thing and try to talk some sense into the sheriff, then I'd let them know that your next recourse is to call the AG in the morning. If needed, I'd follow up on that threat.

    I'm not beyond blatant open carry in large numbers to protest an unlawful non-law until that stupid sign comes down. Forget about the media giving you any coverage, even though it'd be a very newsworthy local story. They have an agenda, and gun rights isn't it. Believe me, I've tried. There's always YouTube.

    It's pathetic that your county attorney seems OK with the sheriff making up a law and posting a sign that's unconstitutional and in violation of Kentucky law, based on the fact that he only enforces it when people don't know the law and their rights, which is most of the time. I'd be campaigning against the sheriff, county attorney, and depending on the results of a fiscal court meeting, maybe the judge executive and magistrates as well.

    Seriously, now that you've informed them of the relevant Kentucky law that they already should have known, continuing to engage in illegal activities that deprive citizens of their rights under the color of law would certainly seem to define official misconduct, which is a class A misdemeanor, with a maximum sentence of 90 days to one year in jail.

    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/522-00/020.PDF

    That should get someone's attention.

    Buy rice. Buy beans. Buy guns. Buy ammo.
    This is your final SHTF warning.

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    I had to get the address changed on my CCDW so I OC'd at the sheriff's office again. The sheriff was there in person eating some doritos. He had no problem with me OCing. He also said that the sign had a lot of adhesive on it and that it would be hard to take off. I wanted to smack the doritos out of his hand. If this isn't resolved in the next couple weeks, I think I'm going to get the issue on the docket for the next fiscal court meeting.

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    gutshot wrote:
    I still say we should have a group OC in that office.
    I'm in.

    Let's go someplace to eat for an open carry lunch afterward and we can make it the season's first double header.



    Buy rice. Buy beans. Buy guns. Buy ammo.
    This is your final SHTF warning.

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    I think if we're in there with our weapons with no business, it could be construed as disorderly conduct. While I don't think such a charge would be legitimate, I think that the case could be made that we're "intending" to cause "public annoyance" or "an offensive condition with no legitimate purpose".

    Again, while I know this isn't the case, I think that might be too grey of an area.

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    Oh yeah, and again, we're already allowed to OC in the office. If we were going to do something more public, I think a picket might raise more public awareness.

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    I'm tempted to OC into the sheriff's office. Received my CCDW certificate today and when I went to apply for my permit they told me they were out of film. Sheriff Hammons was sitting at the window when I went in to apply too. Guess I'm going to see if Fayette county can take my picture.

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