Idea for grievance filling - Community College carry with CHL

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I'm a student (mature) at a community college and carry an empty holster (pamphlets, cards, etc.) on campus in protest of the colleges rules abotu firearms and weapons on campus. I'm working on a grievance to the school regarding the issue and would appreciate any thoughts or inputs of what might be a good argument.

Keep in mind, sources to any law, case law, or new stories would be necessary to support the argument. Any binding case law would be good, would love to see Maxwell's case get a favorable finding before I file but that could be a long time.



So far here is what I'm looking at:

ORS 166.170 Preemption

ORS 166.173? Auth of city and county to regulate carry of loaded firearms - an most definitely the "ordinances in violation are void" part and the CHL exemption.

ORS 166.250 general rules

ORS 166.260 CHL exemption.

ORS 166.262 Prohibition on police to arrest for violation of 166.250 of 166.370 if person has a CHL in posession.

ORS 166.360 and 370 Definitions and carry in public places as well as the CHL exemption.

Another ORS, don't have the number handy that specifically states this community college is a "municipal corporation" and a "political subdivision of the state". -- Hard for them to say they aren't when an ORS specifically lists them as such.

Probably the ORS that restricts CHL issuance to 21 and over

The schools student code of conduct

The Districts Board of Education Policy

Number and proximity of registered sex offenders within 8 blocks of so of the campus. (parking is a bear here and many students walk several blocks to park as well as those that bicycle or walk because they have no vehicle.

Local police policy for reaction to an "active shooter" call. i.e. if there is a bad guy, the police aren't going to enter (I have to verify local policy) but rather "secure the perimeter" and a lawfully carrying student may be the only chance he and his classmates have. On this point I will be try to make it absolutely clear that such a student would only be "hunkering down" with those in HIS class or escaping with them while having some level of self defense capability.

Terry v Ohio in regards to detainments, searches, etc.

Probably federal law on the school exemption for a person licensed and lawful under state law to carry at school. (I have the reference just not open and handy).

The fact that the main campus is located in downtown buildings with public (city) streets and sidewalks on all sides of all buildings so carry right outside the door is lawful with a CHL. I think I will avoid trying to argue that unlicensed carry on those sidewalks is lawful due to the "grounds adjacent" language in 166.360 and my argument is for those with CHL's.

Some cases of armed students intervening on college campus's. Loyola, and a couple others I have data on.

"Uncomfortable" students or staff doesn't trump state law.

Removing the threat of expulsion for violation of unlawful policies will remove the issue from being an issue without a binding court decision which they wouldn't be able to reverse. They could always reverse their decision if they made it without court action if things change.

That many students carry already, they just do so quietly because they know the law is on their side if they were to be "made". This would simply remove the threat of expulsion from those students and the expense of civil liability lawsuits from the school. -- This one I'm waffling on including due to not knowing how many might be carrying and what kind of negative action might be taken after the authorities have their eyes opened to this fact. Since I don't know any students who CC (by design) I couldn't say how many but I also couldn't be compelled to divulge that information in any suit.



Any other ideas or suggestions? I can try to find sources but if you have them it would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

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Here:

http://www.oregonfirearms.org/news/20011126gunsinps.html

Read the entire page, but especially the very last paragraph. I do NOT disarm when stepping on to a college campus, nor do I intend to. I have CC'ed at Portland Community College and Mt. Hood Community College sevral times inthe last few weeks as I am thinking about enrolling for Spring term. I am totally within my rights to CC, and I will do it.

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Ironbar wrote:

Here:

http://www.oregonfirearms.org/news/20011126gunsinps.html

Read the entire page, but especially the very last paragraph. I do NOT disarm when stepping on to a college campus, nor do I intend to. I have CC'ed at Portland Community College and Mt. Hood Community College sevral times inthe last few weeks as I am thinking about enrolling for Spring term. I am totally within my rights to CC, and I will do it.

Click to expand...

I've read it previously (just re-read it). The problem is that while it IS legal, the schools can and usually will expell the student ala Jeff Maxwell as WOU and then it's a big legal battle for which they have the taxpayers funds to spend and the student must finance their own fight.

The goal of the grievance being filed is to either get them to flat out acknowledge they have no authority to restrict lawful carry or get them on the public record as saying they do in order to take further action.

Interestingly, Portland and Lane Community Colleges policies are, at least the way they're written, in compliance with state law. How they "interpret" them is unknown but at least their printed policy doesn't blatantly violate the law.

When I decided to go to college i thought hard about whether to carry concealled, openly (as I usually do), or an empty holster. I chose the empty holster as an "in your face" challenge as concealed would have done nothing to challenge the unlawful policies and open carrying would have most likely found me in the same situation as Jeff Maxwell (even though he was concealed).

I carry the holster, pamphlets, and speak/write about legal carry at every opportunity, to the dismay of the anti's.

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Hello everyone, I've been surfing through topics on this site for a little while now and I just can't help myself. I must chime in. I too am a Community College student. I go to PCC. Earlier today I sent an e-mail to the head of my campus. It is as follows:

Hello Mr. *****

As you can see my name is **** **** and I am a PCC student. I have a few questions about one of PCC's policies. Not of its character mind you, I just need some clarification. In section 17 of General Policies in the Student Resources Guide it states, "failure to comply with the following rules regarding firearms and weapons: a. The use, carrying, exhibiting, or displaying of any weapon (as defined by Oregon Revised Statute 161.015), or facsimiles thereof, is prohibited on or in College facilities, except as provided by Oregon Law or when approved by College administration for official College activities."

Could you define "facilities" for me? Is it only a building such as in Oregon Revised Statute (ORS) 166.360 where it defines a "Court facility" is "a courthouse or that portion of any other building occupied by a circuit court"? Or is "facilities" referring to the public property on which the buildings sit?

The Resources guide doesn't specifically mention anything about ORS 166.370, which addresses the possession of a firearms. Could ORS 166.370 be what, "provided by Oregon law," refers to in section 17?

In ORS 166.370 section three, letter "d," it grants the privilege of "a person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun." Section three also exempts that person from section one, which makes possession of a "dangerous weapon" a felony, in or on a "public building." In section four of ORS 166.360 one of the definitions of a "public building," is "a college." That being said, am I correct in that trained, law-abiding citizens who have a concealed handgun license can legally exercise their Second Amendment right to protect themselves anywhere on Portland Community College property? Or has someone found a way around these statutes? If so, could you tell me specifically, which law(s) they are using to do it? I appreciate your help in these clarifications as I am a law-abiding citizen who strives to follow and respect the rules.

Again, thank you for your help and for your time.
**** ****

I thought I would start off very polite and just question the policy. I have no idea what to expect as a reply. My dream is that they will say, "oops lets change that to accommodate those who posses a license." I would be happy with, " we discourage the action and ask that you keep it concealed at all times but you have the legal right." But more realistically it will just be, "no guns allowed." Or they will send the e-mail around from person to person for six months until someone loses it. Whatever they do it is nice to see I am not the only opposition they will be facing.

We-the-People, I will be writing my final paper for one of my classes on the censorship of firearms in schools (ironic isn't it). I will be spending the next two weeks researching the topic and can post and or e-mail any relevant findings. Aside from my paper, have you in any way challenged the school's policy yet? If so, do you have and documentation of them denying your right to carry?

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I haven't yet filed my grievance with the school. It seems that pulling 16 credits including a research English class puts a bit of a strain on time. LOL

So far I have carried an empty holster daily. I know of two (there are probably others) incidents where someone has gone to security to report me as "I think there's a guy with a gun out there".I am yet to be approached by security other than the one guard on one of the campuses with whom I have a very friendly conversation relationship with.

I have made contact with a member of the Board of Education about filing a grievance for a policy that is in violation of state law (did not identify the policy) and was referred to the President of RCC. Once I get the time I will be filing a grievance through the regular channels, starting with a counselor and working it up. If I get no satisfaction through that process I will then appeal it to the Board and if that fails, seek an attorney for court action. I figure they will most likely resist but hope that they see the error of their ways.

If not, I plan to file the largest dollar valuecivil suit possibleand hope that their accountants and/or lawyers say "settle it". I don't care about money so a settlement would have to include a reqrite of the policy to comply with CHL carry rights under the law,NO confidentiality agreement, and legal fees. Hopefully the cost and potential loss in a jury trial willmake them blink.

I think it is time for all of us to bring suit against all of "them" as they will simply continue their strong arm tactics with threat of expulsion and other sanctions to intimidate students who can not afford the cost and hassle of a court battle while they can simply dig deeper into the tax payers pockets to fund their lawyers and any loss that might occur. It's a major flaw in our system.

As for PCC, I have a letter from one of the deans in my history files somewhere (a reply to an e-mail from me) in which that dean states that the school is in full compliance with state law because of the "except as provided by Oregon law" language in their policy. I'll try to find it and get it to you.

Also, I am in contact with Jeff Maxwells attorney and he's hoping to have some news to release soon, perhaps it will come before your paper is finished though that's doubtful with the snails pace speed of the court system here.

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I am very, VERY interested in this topic as I will begin attending PCC starting Spring term. Please keep up the updates. Thanks!

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Okay, I found the e-mail from PCC in my archives. I've never put an entire e-mail into a forum message so don't know how to do that but I'll cut and paste it below.



BEGIN CUT AND PASTE OF E-MAIL FROM PCC

FROM: tobaccofree@pcc.edu <tobaccofree@pcc.edu>

DATE: Friday, October 02, 2009 4:21 PM

TO: ME, REMOVED

Re: Your activist policies



Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.



We understand that you are frustrated about PCC's new tobacco free policy. The new policy was approved after several years of discussion, study, and input from students, faculty, staff, and the neighborhood associations surrounding the campuses. Several committees considered ways to deal with the complaints about second-hand smoke (and the dangers it presents to those with respiratory problems), difficulties with enforcement, costs of cleaning up litter (and the concern about cigarette butts never biodegrading), etc.



We have spent a year preparing for this policy to go into effect, and we sincerely hope that it will lead to a healthier environment for our students, employees and visitors.



Regarding your comments about our rules on firearms, our current PCC Code of Student Conduct complies with state law (note the boldfaced phrase):



The use, carrying, exhibiting, or displaying of any weapon (as defined by Oregon Revised Statute 161.015), or facsimiles thereof, is prohibited on or in College facilities, except as provided by Oregon law[/b] or when approved by College administration for official College activities.





Linda Reisser

Dean of Student Development, PCC Cascade

END CUT AND PASTE OF E-MAIL FROM PCC

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Well i'm glad they made that clear <sarcasm>. What "boldfaced phrase" is she talking about? All she did was cite the school's policy. She in no way defined or interpreted it. I hope I get a better response from my e-mail. I will post it when or if I receive one. If I don't get one or they send me the go around, I'm thinking of writing to the sheriff and asking him of his interpretation of the law.

Have you thought about writing a definitional essay for your appeal? You could say, "per ORS X, Y, and Z it is legal to carry firearms on campus." You could then go into detail, about X, Y, and Z. At the end you could ask them to include "we agree" or "we disagree" with your claim. You could ask them if they are going to disagree, to cite specifically, the statute(s) that allow them to deny us our right. This is kind of what I have planned for future letters to the school and sherif.

What is Maxwell's case about? I'm not sure I've read about it, but then again i'm horrible with names.

16 credits? WOW, props to you that's a hefty workload. I'm only taking 8 this quarter and between work and my 2 year old son life is crazy. It's going to get more intense in about 5 weeks when I start and taking 12 credits. I can't imagine 16.

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It seems her bold faced emphasis didn't come through in the cut and paste. Ooops. Her original message had "except as provided by Oregon law" in bold. I didn't check to make sure it made it through after pasting it.

The definitional essay methodology is pretty much what I've been working on (between class assignments and lifes requirements). I will include the official police policy for an active shooter inside one of the school's buildings, campus securities official policy, and probably the state police policy. That's assuming that they will release them when I request them. If at first they say "no" I'll try to FOIA them. I expect if I have to go that route they will resist on teh grounds of security issues. Alternatively, I've considered contacting the chief of police explaining that I'm an RCC student working on an essay about firearms and schools and would like to interview him. Of course being a good "journalist" I would ask if he minded my recording the interview so that I would be able to transcribe it accurately later.

I also need to update my statistical database of school shootings with a "lawfully carried firearm used unlawfully" catagory or something similar. Nice to be able to show the statistics of the college and K-12 schools as regards gun violence. There have been several incidents where faculty or staff used a firearm to stop a shooter....and none that I know of that involved an active shooter who was licensed to carry.

The Maxwell case is Jeff Maxwell. USMC veteran attending Western Oregon Univ uner the GI bill. He was reported to security because someone saw that he had a pocket knife. When security asked about the knife he handed it to them and was told it was against the rules. They then asked if he had any other weapons on him and he truthfully (though unnecessarily I believe) told them he had a carry permit and pistol as well as another pocket knife. They took him into "custody", called the cops, cops arrested him, he was booked and released. The District Attorney later dropped the charges saying "In the interest of justice" rather than admitting that the cops violated ORS 166.262 which specifically denies them any authority to arrest for carrying concealed when presented with a CHL (including in college campuses).

Western Or Univ then held a kangaroo court, convicted him though they weren't sure on what charges, sentenced him to have a psych eval done and to write a 10 page essay on, among other things, "the importance of following the law even in incidents of civil disobedience". He was later told he was "not welcome on any Oregon Univ system school".

The total school ban was lifted in negotiations with his lawyer pending outcome of the court actions filed against the schoolso I guess he's back at school.

Bottom line, both the school and the police violated state law.



The 16 credits is probably easier than 12 for you. No kids, no job, no financial worries, and the VA is paying for tuition and books. On the other hand, at 48 years old, going to class and listening to a bunch of crap that is against my beliefs is difficult. I don't hold back my opinions though. I actually convinced my speech teacher that, indeed, firearms on campus by CHL holders was indeed legal and that being prepared was, in fact, a necessity. I think that's about as good as you can get for a public acknowledgement that the schools policy is wrong from a working teacher.

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Well i'm shocked. I got an email back from PCC today. It says the following:

Thanks for your questions. Regulation of firearms comes up from time to time.

First, as to your question on facilities. In the context of PCC, facilities means the land and buildings for which we (PCC) have a legal responsibility. That could be buildings and land that we own, or that we lease, or that we rent.

As to the regulation of firearms, you obviously are aware of the statutory authorities and limitations that exist in Oregon law. The statute provides for the issuance of a concealed weapon permit to persons who are able to meet a variety of criteria. Note that the section of the statute references concealed. If a weapon is concealed, and is the subject of a lawfully-issued concealed weapons permit, PCC would have no knowledge of it. So assuming lawful activity by trained, law-abiding citizens (your words), PCC has no need to regulate that which is otherwise lawful activity.

The "trick" in these matters, as I'm sure you're aware, is that the statute describes lawful activity, and assumes that those with the training/criteria necessary to gain a concealed permit will in fact undertake lawful activity. PCC has the authority to manage the educational environment, subject to a variety of laws and regulations (including the concealed weapons rules) and obviously the open display of weapons can impact that environment.

You asked specifically: "That being said, am I correct in that trained, law-abiding citizens who have a concealed handgun license can legally exercise their Second Amendment right to protect themselves anywhere on Portland Community College property?" In the abstract, the answer is "yes". But, the Second Amendment addresses the right of the people to keep and bear arms. The determination of whether behavior demonstrated in the course of "protecting oneself" is or is not lawful may be a different matter. Just wanted to mention that so I didn't leave you with a mis-impression.

Hope this helps answer your questions. Feel free to call or stop by for a visit if you get to Sylvania.

Randy McEwen
District Vice President POB 19000
p 503-977-4335 Portland OR 97280
f 503-977-4960
c 503-704-8266

I had to read this twice just to be sure I wasn't dreaming. It comes as a sigh of relief now knowing I can bring the only affective means of protection with me to school without institutional repercussion.

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I would follow up with a request for an actual piece of paper with that statement and a signature of an appropriate official. "Just in case".

I was disappointed that they still seem to think that your CHL means if you don't conceal that they can do something about it. But hey, baby steps!!!!!!


NOW.....anyone interested in writing a letter to RCC asking them about their firearms policy? As a student filing a grievance on their written policy, I'd love to have someone else ask so that I can say "see, you told this guy" (and it's not me).

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I've been told by some very trustworthy sources that e-mails can be just as good as a signed letter. It came from a PCC account with the VP Dean's name on it, and it was CC'd to four other staff members so I'm sure there wouldn't be any contest. I've forwarded the e-mail to a bunch of e-mail accounts for preservation just in case.

I agree the emphasis on concealment is little disappointing. But hey, at least we can carry, thats a lot more than other campuses allow. This year should be interesting with Mcdonald vs. Chicago and Maxwell vs. WOU both playing out. Hopefully we will be victorious in both cases and it will be easier to take the next "baby step" and push for open carry.

I might be interested in writing the letter for you. I'll see how much time I have tonight. I think i'll pose as a potential student with a few questions about the schools policies. I see some room for improvement over my last letter and can incorporate parts of it into this new one.

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I was thinking that the letter would be from a prospective student or a parent concerned that thier adult child wouldn't be allowed to lawfully carry.The propective student looking for a school is probably the best. Mentioning that PCC allows lawful carry and is therefore "in the running" might be helpful if RCC goes "oh really"?

I too am watching the Mcdonald and Maxwell cases.

I was going to file my grievance this quarter but I'm pulling 16 units of which 12 are heavy classes. Next quarter I have 16 scheduled (4 in class and 1 online)but plan to drop one after meeting with instructors in the first week and determining what is going to be an acceptable work load. Hopefully that will allow me some breathing room and the time to work on the grievance.

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I'm still waiting to hear back from RCC. I sent an e-mail to Lynda Warren on the 2nd. She replied back on the 3rd saying she would be out of the office for 2 days and would get back to me sometime this week. I ran across this article http://www.dailyvanguard.com/guns-prohibited-on-campus-1.2161303 that should be helpful to you though. Disregard the title of it, the content is what's important; mainly this part:

“You have all the rights and privileges of a permit,” Soto said.
However, if it’s reported to CPSO that a person has a gun on campus, officers may ask them to turn over their weapon or to leave campus.
“Though you cannot be arrested for having a weapon,” Soto said.
If the person with a gun does not leave or turn over the weapon, they can be arrested for trespassing or for brandishing the weapon if someone else sees it, because it is illegal to show a weapon that is supposed to be concealed.

Note that PSU is admitting you can legally carry a firearm with a license and that they "cannot" have you arrested for it.

That last sentence is the second baby step to overcome. The first step; acknowledgement that we can legally have firearms on campus. Second, defining "brandishing" and "concealed" in a context that is realistic. I mean just where is the line? If someone sees the outline of the butt of your firearm up against your t-shirt is that enough for "brandishing?" Hopefully this doesn't become a sort of "loop-hole" that will be capitalized upon by the school systems until we can pass legislation that allows open-carry.

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Oregon does NOT have a "brandishing" statute that I am aware of (and I've done a ton of research. As regards "brandishing" tehre are two statutes that are similar to the general intent of other states brandishing statutes."Menacing" (ORS 163.190) and "Pointing Firearm at Another" (ORS 166.190).

The KEY point in the "menacing"statute is that you must INTENTIONALLY try to place another in fear. The irrational fears of brady bunchers, simply by seeing your weapon, does not constitute INTENTIONAL. Nor would accidentally "printing" or otherwise becoming known. You might get charged, we've all read of bogus charges, but they would either be dropped or you would prevail in court.

www.leg.state.or.us/ors/163.html

Here is the cut and pasted text of those two statutes with BOLD EMPHASIS added by me:

163.190 Menacing. (1) A person commits the crime of menacing if by word or conduct the person intentionally attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious physical injury.

(2) Menacing is a Class A misdemeanor. [1971 c.743 §95]

166.190 Pointing firearm at another; courts having jurisdiction over offense. Any person over the age of 12 years who, with or without malice, purposely points or aims any loaded or empty pistol, gun, revolver or other firearm, at or toward any other person within range of the firearm, except in self-defense, shall be fined upon conviction in any sum not less than $10 nor more than $500, or be imprisoned in the county jail not less than 10 days nor more than six months, or both. Justice courts have jurisdiction concurrent with the circuit court of the trial of violations of this section. When any person is charged before a justice court with violation of this section, the court shall, upon motion of the district attorney, at any time before trial, act as a committing magistrate, and if probable cause be established, hold such person to the grand jury. [Formerly 163.320]

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WOW. How did I oversee this? This is excellent news! I have some rethinking to do now. As well as more questions I need to ask the school systems.

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Just remember, I am not a lawyer.

Also that just because something is not illegal doesn't mean they won't arrest you for it anyway and ruin your day. Even if you are found not guilty, it will cost you money.

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Well I seem to be having some luck with responses to my letters. I received an e-mail back from Lynda Warren, the Dean of college services. It says the following:

Dear Mr. ------

Please accept my apology for my delay in sending you a response to your question, I have been out of town. You are correct that the College’s policy regarding possession of weapons is that “the possession of any dangerous weapon on college property is prohibited unless possessed by a certified law enforcement or public safety office.” However, per ORS 166.370, this prohibition does not apply to those with concealed weapons permits.

Sincerely,

Lynda Warren
CFO/Dean of College Services
Rogue Community College

I'm gonna go ahead and say she isn't especially-well informed on the topic because she referred to an Oregon Concealed Handgun License as a "concealed weapons permit." But hey, it's a common mistake. I'd say it's time to test the waters. Personally, I would start by bringing the letter to the security officers and make sure they understand the law like Dean Warren does. If you would like We-the-People, I can forward her e-mail to you so you can verify authenticity. Supposedly, if you print an e-mail so that it show's the original sender and everyone (if anyone) between you and that person then it is legal proof the e-mail came from the original e-mail address (the exception being a forged or falsified (legal) document). Because giving her e-mail-account password out would violate the privacy laws protecting students who want to send her confidential e-mails, you (or anyone) can pretty-much-rest assured that if it came from her e-mail address, she was the one who sent it. But i'm not a lawyer so you'll have to verify that for yourself.

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Yes, please do forward me a copy of that e-mail. You can find my e-mail addy in my profile by clicking on the "We-The-People" just above my avatar on the left of any message I sent.

Now that finals are over, I want to get to work on this issue and be ready for next quarter. I'm a bit amazed at the lack of knowledge of the rules and policies that the staff at RCC have. I went to the student government VP and several of the officers that were in the office at the time, the student government faculty advisor, and the head of one of the departments, not a single one of them could tell me if I was required by policy to show my student ID to a security guard while on campus, couldn't tell me where to look, etc. The best answer I got was "a lot of students don't even have a valid student ID" (you have to get a new sticker on it every quarter) and you only need it for the library and fiancial aid.

This came up because a guard wanted my ID because he didn't like me asking him questions about his authority to enforce college rules off campus (the city sidewalk next to the building) and I refused.....followed by typical attempts to intimidate such as the threat of a loitering ticket (hard to issue without an ID).

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Message forwarded! Good luck and keep us posted on your progress. As far as the student I.D. goes, we do the exact same thing at PCC. Honestly, they're a waste of time and money because you can use a government issued I.D. (which you need to get your student I.D.) for everything in the business office and library, so long as you know your I.D. number.