Confused reactions to OC in Kenner Wal-Mart?

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I read, and commented in, the thread about one of your fellow Louisiana OCer's dispicable treatment in the Kenner Wal-Mart.

I then followed, with horror, the completely inept and clueless reactions on how this was to be corrected.

One person stated, "I'll never shop there again!". As if not spending your $8.67 is going to put a $400 billion/year business in the gutter. HA! Oh, it may feel good, but please explain how this is going to change the sickening way OCer's are going to be treated there? Especially since you AGREE to do what they desire: GO AWAY!

Yeah. What a wonderful idea.

Then Mark Edward Machiafava offers an excellent suggestion and gets panned.

Then, a thread is posted asking when the "invasion" of the Kenner Wal-Mart is to take place.......AS A SATIRE!

Do any of you have a clue? You treat an open carry meet-up there as a satirical responce to them running roughshod over your freedom? Other than meekly comply with this anti-gun business' wish, what ARE you proposing? People who propose actually DOING something are being derided, so I guess the only approach to standing up for your freedom that is willingly supported by all, is: DO NOTHING. (Or stop spending your $17.58 there. Which is pretty much the same as doing nothing when you look at Wal-Mart's annual revenue.)

You laugh and react with derision at increasing your Open Carry presence at Kenner Wal-Mart by having a meet-up.

Well, look at the people here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum36/36717.html

Here are some people reacting to the unlawful stop of a fellow OCer on the Las Vegas strip. These are a bunch of professionals. They may not look like the suit and tie type in their photos, but when it comes to making a stand against the horrific treatment of one of their own, they are GOLD. They DO something. They UNIFY. They band TOGETHER. Just because one of them was hassled. Professionals. They provide a fit and admirable example of people who stand up for their rights. How American.

I've seen nothing but petty bickering and squabbling here. Then, when a valid action is proposed, it is torn apart and reacted to with derision and scorn by posting a satire of it.

Even though Kenner is more than 14 hours away, I'm seriously considering "invading" it myself.

If you won't unify and work together as a group of people working for a common cause, maybe you could ask the guys over there in the Nevada forum to do it for you. I'm sure they would be glad to help. It's what professionals do.

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These guys are mostly CC'ers, at best,

too busy formulating their bylaws and such,

you know, following the NRA (negotiate rights away) approach to building an empire vs actually accomplishing anything of substance.

PM me anytime, I'll go with you.

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Was the unlawful stop of the Vegas OCer done by a LEO? If so, you're comparing apples and oranges.

Law enforcement (as government entities) is bound to obey the laws of the country/state/parish/city. Therefore, if they (legally) cannot stop you for OCing, you are completely justified in the march-type response.

If a Wal-Mart manager asks you to stop OCing on the property, it's a different ball game. It's a corporation, not a government entity, and as such they can ask you to take your gun outside. An armed march on Wal-Mart wouldn't do anything except probably get all of the marchers kicked out - and guess what, the manager would be legally justified in doing so.

Don't get me wrong, I think we should be able to walk into Wal-Mart armed and un-harassed just like on a public street in Louisiana. But private property owners (and their representatives) are legally allowed to ask you to leave the premises. If you want to change that, you need to change the law, through the legislative or judicial branches.

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LOL, it's a shame very few here actually learn.

WalMart has a policy which allows OC in the POLICE STATE OF LOUISIANA.

As an employee of WalMart, a manager is supposed to OBEY the wishes of HIS bosses. Hence, an OC event there would convey the message to not only the sheeple shopping there, but to the employee-type sheeple WORKING there.



And yes, you ARE welcome.

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But private property owners (and their representatives) are legally allowed to ask you to leave the premises.

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They are also legally allowed to post a sign stating that firearms carriers are not welcome.

If they don't want you in there, why don't they tell you to stay out instead of waiting for you to enter and then asking you to leave?

Know why? Because it is against Wal-Mart policy to prohibit you from carrying theresince Wal-Mart policy mirrors state law. Yet, they don't have a problem doing so because everyone happily complies with their wishes instead of making them work at it.

Why did they ask him to leave if they won't ask him to stay out in the first place?

Because they can. Standing by and watching while doing nothing has a tendency to convince them that kicking out perfectly law abiding citizens that are not told not to enter, and are not doing anything wrong is the perfect way to get rid of your unwanted @$$.The fact that you willingly stay away is confirmation in itself.

It's a corporation, not a government entity, and as such they can ask you to take your gun outside.

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Then why is there a problem with making them do this repeatedly by having an OC meet-up?

I have just realized the cure for both our problems!

WILL ALL PERSONS HERE WHO WISH TO DO NOTHING TO STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS PLEASE LEAVE AND NEVER RETURN?

There. This solves everything. You see, those who willingly comply with things they don't like will no longer participate here!

After all, they meekly crawled away from Wal-Mart with their tail between their legs when asked. If they're going to cave in and disappear when asked to "go away" by a firearm hostile store manager, the least they can do is be consistent and go away when asked to do so by someone who believes in the same thing they do.

( I have no desire for anyone to leave here. I enjoy conversations about ways to advance our common cause. Just because I disagree with your views doesn't mean I don't wish to discuss them.)

Just feel free to explain how allowing yourself to be pushed around by major corporation and willingly following their wish for you to go away should be followed, and leaving a forum you enjoy participating in because someone asks is any different.

If you enjoy something, whether it's participation in a conversation, or the right of self defense, how does willingly forfieting it help you to enjoy it?

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Superlite27 wrote:

But private property owners (and their representatives) are legally allowed to ask you to leave the premises.

Click to expand...

They are also legally allowed to post a sign stating that firearms carriers are not welcome.

If they don't want you in there, why don't they tell you to stay out instead of waiting for you to enter and then asking you to leave?

Know why? Because it is against Wal-Mart policy to prohibit you from carrying theresince Wal-Mart policy mirrors state law. Yet, they don't have a problem doing so because everyone happily complies with their wishes instead of making them work at it.

Why did they ask him to leave if they won't ask him to stay out in the first place?

Because they can. Standing by and watching while doing nothing has a tendency to convince them that kicking out perfectly law abiding citizens that are not told not to enter, and are not doing anything wrong is the perfect way to get rid of your unwanted @$$.The fact that you willingly stay away is confirmation in itself.

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Maybe because the manager doesn't know he/she can post such a sign? It's not like everyone knows all of the law, and let's face it, OC isn't something most business owners encounter, so I don't blame them for not knowing everything about it.

And yes, Wal-Mart has a policy stating that they follow state law. I believe there is a multi-page thread in General Discussion about that policy, and there are suggestions that the policy as stated does not forbid a manager to ask an OCer to leave. Basically, the state law allows a business representative to ask someone to leave, so (in a twisted sort of way) Wal-Mart is conforming to state law when they ask you to leave. Again, I don't like it, but it's perfectly legal for them to do so.

Now, I'd prefer to take the corporate policy at face value and assume that means that if the state allows OC, then all Wal-Marts in the state allow OC. So if a manager goes contrary to corporate policy, don't you think it would be better to first try to inform the manager that he is in error? State the relevant laws and corporate policy, and give him a chance to see the truth. While jensen_lover (the guy who ran into trouble at the Kenner Wal-Mart) said it was legal to OC, he was forced to respond quickly and on his feet, and a more prepared approach to management may be more persuasive. Sometimes it does work - see witerango's thread about his experience with the Lowe's in Marrero. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum26/33508-1.html

Of course, it's entirely possible that management refuses to change their minds. Then go to Plan B - complaints to corporate, armed marches, whatever floats your boat.

Carrying out armed marches, without first even trying a reasoned approach, is being hasty. To sum it up, try the appeal to reason first. Then, if that doesn't work, go for an armed march or whatever. If the appeal to reason works, great, you've accomplished the goal efficiently. If not, you still have the option of whatever else you wanted to do.

It's a corporation, not a government entity, and as such they can ask you to take your gun outside.

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Then why is there a problem with making them do this repeatedly by having an OC meet-up? I have just realized the cure for both our problems! WILL ALL PERSONS HERE WHO WISH TO DO NOTHING TO STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS PLEASE LEAVE AND NEVER RETURN? There. This solves everything. You see, those who willingly comply with things they don't like will no longer participate here! After all, they meekly crawled away from Wal-Mart with their tail between their legs when asked. If they're going to cave in and disappear when asked to "go away" by a firearm hostile store manager, the least they can do is be consistent and go away when asked to do so by someone who believes in the same thing they do. ( I have no desire for anyone to leave here. I enjoy conversations about ways to advance our common cause. Just because I disagree with your views doesn't mean I don't wish to discuss them.) Just feel free to explain how allowing yourself to be pushed around by major corporation and willingly following their wish for you to go away should be followed, and leaving a forum you enjoy participating in because someone asks is any different. If you enjoy something, whether it's participation in a conversation, or the right of self defense, how does willingly forfieting it help you to enjoy it?

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So it's just your way or the highway?:quirky You're forcing a false dichotomy on people here. Nobody's letting themselves be "pushed around" by a corporation. I'll say it one more time, the law allows Wal-Mart or any other business to ask customers to leave for a number of reasons, including OC. If you want to debate the philosophy/ethics/whatever of this, then fire away. But you cannot deny the reality of the laws on the books.

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Here's where most here fail to connect.

".......state law allows a business representative..............."



NO, that is not accurate. Louisiana law allows an AGENT...............



The question is, is a Walmart employee/manager also an AGENT ?



Yes, you ARE welcome.

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mark edward marchiafava wrote:

Here's where most here fail to connect.

".......state law allows a business representative..............."



NO, that is not accurate. Louisiana law allows an AGENT...............



The question is, is a Walmart employee/manager also an AGENT ?



Yes, you ARE welcome.

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Oops, wrong term, thank you for correcting me. So how is an "agent" defined? I've searched a bit but haven't found a definition of "agent" in LA Law yet. I can make my own assumptions about what an "agent" of Wal-Mart is (definitely not a floor employee), but I'd rather get the legal definition.

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call the secretary of state, 225-925-4707,ask them to email you a link to the exact reference,

it's there for the asking.

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*Yawn*

I'm so tired of folks writing these touchy-feely posts.

If you're gonna OC, know the law and your rights. Man up and don't let rent-a-cops or minimum wage workers have an effect on you. Go about your normal business in your normal lives and OC. If you are detained, don't talk to the cops and get a lawyer.

Here in Louisiana, OCing is legal in most places. Where it's not - let's try to change that.

WHAT ELSE IS THERE TO TALK ABOUT?

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Carrying out armed marches, without first even trying a reasoned approach, is being hasty. To sum it up, try the appeal to reason first. Then, if that doesn't work, go for an armed march or whatever.

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I see your point. By all means, talk with Wal-Mart. Get their input on how they will allow you to express your 2nd Amendmant rights by OCing in their stores. If an agreeable outcome can be achieved by this manner, I whole heartedly agree.

Yet, to not OC in that store untilthis happensis not an acceptable alternative for me.

If any business treats me as if I am a criminal and ejects me from their property when it is both lawful, and within their own policy that I am able to OC there, I'm going back at every opportunity. If I am asked to NOT come back, I'm going to ask everyone to go there in my stead until I get a note from the Wal-Mart Big Cheese to shove in the manager's face.

Either OC is O.K. (according to their own policy) or it is NOT. I am determined to force them into a black or white answer instead of tap dancing around.

It is either written in stone that OC is a no-go, or it is written in stone that it is A-OK.

Which?

Until you get a definate answer, whether calling them and "talking", or loading up and "walking", they are simply playing you.

The most likely outcome is the ON-HIGH almighty supreme Wal-MArt commander will tell you it's A-OK.

Then Mr. Manager will kick you out again when you go back.

If they're gonna give you the run around, give it right back.

Y'all have a good weekend.

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mark edward marchiafava wrote:

These guys are mostly CC'ers, at best,

too busy formulating their bylaws and such,

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Ah, here we go, belittling the REAL OC'ers here.

Say what ya want hypocrite, we don't call ourselves champions of OC while covering our guns.

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mark edward marchiafava wrote:

These guys are mostly CC'ers, at best,

too busy formulating their bylaws and such,

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

A bit of truth to that statement, maybe not to CCers generally, but some people who form groups and then never actually do anything - like an ice berg, most organizational effort goes unseen, and little is above water

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I'm here in Monroe, La and usually CC. If heading to the deer lease I usually have a gun on my side and I may get gas or whatever but I don't hide my weapon when I go inside to pay. I haven't had any problems so far. When I go to WalMart I usually CC but if I happen to go in while OCing I don't want a hassle. I will be going to WalMart this weekend and I think I will ask for a Manager and ask him/her what that stores policy. I will try to remember to get on here and let you folks know what they said.

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Mike wrote:

mark edward marchiafava wrote:

These guys are mostly CC'ers, at best,

too busy formulating their bylaws and such,

Click to expand...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

A bit of truth to that statement, maybe not to CCers generally, but some people who form groups and then never actually do anything - like an ice berg, most organizational effort goes unseen, and little is above water

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So Mike, your post is a bit ambiguous. What are your thoughts about groups of OCers banding together into more formal organizations to promote, defend, and raise awareness about open carry at the local & state levels?

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I don't understand what the big deal is with OC in La?

It's an open carry state with full-state preemption of firearms, except where ordinances were in place before preemption and you have an OAG onopen carry.

It doesn't take 30 or 40 people to have successful OC events. Christ, in Michigan, we started out with 4 at a McDonald's a few years ago. There would have been a few more if it were not for a snow storm that early morning, but whatever.

It only takes a few of you to achieve any OC event. Go to a restaurant, have a picnic, pick up trash along the road, etc, who cares...just do it.

Do what we did in the Michigan sub-forum and create an OC Events Thread. At least this may demonstrate-- not only for current members, but for those who may come along in the future--the seriousness and potential of the OC movement in La.

Three to four years ago, we had the same concerns of being a test case; e.g. MWAG calls, LEO harassment and ultimately arrest. We've come a long ways in Michigan in the lase few years and the test case syndrome is barely existent.

I'm not in any way shape or form trying to Monday Morning Quarterback the OC movement for you in La, I'm just simply saying start an OC Events Thread, have Mike stickie it, organize an OC event and attend. Again, you only need a few to get the ball rolling. If you build it, they will come.

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Most of your comments are on target.
All that is needed is to OC as a group, whether it be 2 or 200.
Instead of forming a mutual admiration society, we should be OC'ing where it's the LEAST acceptable.
Did Rosa Parks board an all-black bus?
Did the lunch counter protesters go to an all-black diner?
Of course not.

There is no need for any empire-building, just do it.

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mark edward marchiafava wrote:

Most of your comments are on target

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Let back up a minute here.

SpringerXDacp:
It only takes a few of you to achieve any OC event. Go to a restaurant, have a picnic, pick up trash along the road, etc, who cares...just do it.

And you say he's on target?

If I recall correctly (and I do) you have REPEATEDLY bad mouthed others who get together at a restaurant. Here's a quick example:

mark edward marchiafava wrote:

PM me anytime, we'll actually OC as a GROUP !!!! (other than sitting at a table in some eating establishment).

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And then here's just one example of your comments on OCer's doing trash pickups:

mark edward marchiafava wrote:

why are SOME OC'ers so fixated on picking up someone else's trash?

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SpringerXDacp:
Three to four years ago, we had the same concerns of being a test case; e.g. MWAG calls, LEO harassment and ultimately arrest. We've come a long ways in Michigan in the lase few years and the test case syndrome is barely existent.

mark edward marchiafava wrote:

There is no need for any empire-building, just do it.

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We in LOCAL are trying to do EXACTLY what Michigan has accomplished, build a strong Pro-OC organization on Michigan's model here in Louisiana. They recognized the power of numbers and have used it to great effect in Michigan. You have done nothing but pooh-pooh the idea of Louisiana OCer's getting organized right from the start.
If you despise this concept so much, if it irks you to read about OCer's meeting in restaurants or doing trash pickup so much, why don't you head over to every meet-up thread on all the other states forums (there's plenty of them) and express your views on what kind of AmeriKans they are?

mark edward marchiafava wrote:

Did the lunch counter protesters go to an all-black diner?
Of course not.

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Clue time mark. The protesters did this AS A GROUP.

Funny thing too, they did it at "some eating establishment".

You want to use them as an example yet based on your rhetoric against LOCAL, you would have advised them not to do anything as a group and God forbid they should meet in a restaurant!

Go away Hypocrite. You lost what shreds of credibility you had when you were photographed illegally concealing in public. The great OC spokesman. Pah.

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Hate to disappoint ya, but I"m here to stay.

You really should consider confirming things before you spout them as fact.

But, I forget, you are just like the rest here, not the least bit interested in the truth.

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wendell chenault wrote:

I'm here in Monroe, La and usually CC. If heading to the deer lease I usually have a gun on my side and I may get gas or whatever but I don't hide my weapon when I go inside to pay. I haven't had any problems so far. When I go to WalMart I usually CC but if I happen to go in while OCing I don't want a hassle. I will be going to WalMart this weekend and I think I will ask for a Manager and ask him/her what that stores policy. I will try to remember to get on here and let you folks know what they said.

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WalMart's policy is well known and has been discussed to death here.
Why ask a manager who probably doesn't KNOW the policy of his masters?
Other than confirming his ignorance, what does it accomplish?
Why not print out WalMart's policy, if hassled, HAND IT TO HIM/HER ?

Don't want to get hassled? LOL, you'll fit right in here, lots of that mentality.