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Thread: Had an interesting convsation w/kirkland PD.

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    I was talking to a sargent at my college in Kirkland about trainning memo's for OCing. He told me if they get a call about a man w/gun, the dispatcher dosen't info the complaintant that its legal and that when they show up they suggest in as strongest terms possible to cover up. He told me that he thought it was stupid and that the OCer should carry concealled so not to alarm the public. I ask him what type of world would it be if everone OCed and the public wasn't alarmed by the sight of a person OCing. He said it would never happen. I said JUST GIVE US TIME.

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    I think people being alarmed at OC is the exception not the rule. I open carry daily and rarely run into incidents and most of the incidents I do see on a daily basis are positive.

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    And when they respond to your lawful activity simply end the non-consensual encounter and go about your business.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Kildars wrote:
    I think people being alarmed at OC is the exception not the rule. I open carry daily and rarely run into incidents and most of the incidents I do see on a daily basis are positive.
    +1....in all my time OCing, the negative reactions have been few and very far between. The cop is one who obviously has a issue that you dare challenge his "authority" by wearing a gun on your hip....don't you know only police are special and well trained enough to do that? *barf*

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    joeroket wrote:
    And when they respond to your lawful activity simply end the non-consensual encounter and go about your business.
    Exactly. They have no reason to require ID, no probably cause to detain you, and no reason to continue the encounter at all once they have visually observed that you are not breaking any law.

    At any point after they walk up and initiate an encounter, you should ask if you are free to go, and do so.

    If they say you are not free to go ask them precisely what crime they believe is being committed which gives them cause to detain you.

    If they can't provide one and still won't let you walk away, ask that they call their superior officer and have him or her show up. Don't talk to much at this point either.

    If you are walking around some guys have found that it is useful not to have their CPL with them. They can't then make you cover up because you would then be breaking the law.

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    So they can't make you show ID and Check the serial number on your gun for weather it is stolen? I had a young seattle officer tell mehe could do this 6 months ago, but he didn't.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    heresolong wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    And when they respond to your lawful activity simply end the non-consensual encounter and go about your business.
    Exactly. They have no reason to require ID, no probably cause to detain you, and no reason to continue the encounter at all once they have visually observed that you are not breaking any law.

    At any point after they walk up and initiate an encounter, you should ask if you are free to go, and do so.

    If they say you are not free to go ask them precisely what crime they believe is being committed which gives them cause to detain you.

    If they can't provide one and still won't let you walk away, ask that they call their superior officer and have him or her show up. Don't talk to much at this point either.

    If you are walking around some guys have found that it is useful not to have their CPL with them. They can't then make you cover up because you would then be breaking the law.
    ...or it can be their Superior officer who shows up and detains you at gun point.....with numerous threats..... still refusing to give you RAS but making it understood that it will not end up good for you if you were to leave.....(but eventually returning your weapon and sending you on your way)

    But then you have a reason for grievance and due compensation.

    I agree with your post and I don't carry my CPL or I.D. if I am walking around. I go sterile. Makes it harder for them to violate your 4th.

    Sounds like Kirkland needs a meet. We can invite the local PD.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    seattleric007 wrote:
    So they can't make you show ID and Check the serial number on your gun for weather it is stolen? I had a young seattle officer tell mehe could do this 6 months ago, but he didn't.
    NO. seattleric007, you do not consent to any searches..... he would need RAS/PC to search your gun/serial number.
    Live Free or Die!

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    NavyLT wrote:
    NO. seattleric007, you do not consent to any searches..... he would need RAS/PC to search your gun/serial number.

    A good example is Minnesota v. Dickerson

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...=508&invol=366

    Running the serial number of the gun equates to the search of the pocket when the cop felt a lump...
    Provided the serial is not in plain sight.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    NavyLT wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    NavyLT wrote:
    NO. seattleric007, you do not consent to any searches..... he would need RAS/PC to search your gun/serial number.

    A good example is Minnesota v. Dickerson

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...=508&invol=366

    Running the serial number of the gun equates to the search of the pocket when the cop felt a lump...
    Provided the serial is not in plain sight.
    Not true.* The act of calling in the serial number to check if it is stolen is the violation part.* You are confusing finding evidence of a crime that is in plain sight and searching for evidence of a crime.
    I am not so sure that is correct NavyLt. The plain sight rule comes into play anytime the officer is in a place that he has the legal right to be.

    There is no search warrant requirement for plain sight items.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    So AMGcall doesn't give them a RAS/PC to demand ID? And I should leave my conceal carry license in the car, so they can't make me cover up.
    Ask for a sargent if they make demands for ID or my gun. Don't resist physically, but don't give permission. Thanks guys for schooling me in this.

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    joeroket,

    Yes, if you're OCing in a public place, any and all officers are completely free to ogle your firearm as much as they want. What's disputed is: do they have a right to demand to see the serial number, take temporary possesion of the firearm so they may transcribe or inspect the serial number, and call in the serial number for whatever purpose thay might have.

    I would hope not.


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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    seattleric007 wrote:
    So AMGcall doesn't give them a RAS/PC to demand ID? And I should leave my conceal carry license in the car, so they can't make me cover up.
    Ask for a sargent if they make demands for ID or my gun. Don't resist physically, but don't give permission. Thanks guys for schooling me in this.
    Yep keep up the fight. In a polite respectable manner. This is not only for the movement but for you if ever you have to go to court because of it.

    Oh and leave your ID in the car too. Than the pressure of them demanding your ID is simply "I don't have any on me". Trust me some officers don't like that though, but that is not your problem if they don't like it.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  14. #14
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    I know sudden valley gunner has seen this video from california, but have the rest of you. http://www.opencarryradio.com/?p=435

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    seattleric007 wrote:
    I know sudden valley gunner has seen this video from california, but have the rest of you. http://www.opencarryradio.com/?p=435
    I'm proud of myself. I actually got through the entire video without shouting, punching the monitor, or swearing. But I'm still PISSED!

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    Thanks alot Lt. that spells it out. awesome, thanks!



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    NavyLT wrote:
    In Washington you are only required to show a Driver's License when stopped while driving or show ID for the purpose of issuance of a civil infraction citation. Otherwise identifying yourself to an officer during a Terry Stop verbally by giving your name, address, and birth date are sufficient means to identify yourself.
    If you're not being issued a civil infraction, you are not even required to give name, address, and birth date. In the park when an uninformed officer approached me, I gave my first name and phone number - since I knew that the FOIA request would contain those two things. When she asked for my address, I declined to provide it - I did not want to be the subject of police hassling simply because I'm exercising my rights. Additionally, the officer has no reason to know my birthday, unless they're offering to buy me presents .

    *edit*
    Now there are US Supreme Court cases which rule that verbal identification (name, address, date of birth such as in the statute above), may be required to be given during an investigation when there is RAS of a crime.
    Only if the state has such a law, and only a name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_...ourt_of_Nevada which relied largely on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolender_v._Lawson

    "The Nevada Supreme Court had held that the Nevada statute required only that the suspect divulge his name"
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member ghosthunter's Avatar
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    Since we are on the subject of searches. About four years ago while duck hunting on DF&W lands a game agent contacted my friend and I why we were hunting . We were sitting in low chairs to the ground.

    He patted us both down and looked through our bags. I suspect he was looking for extra shotgun shells which might put us over the 15 shell limit.

    He found none.

    Now do game agents have more powers in this case???

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    No! I do not believe so, remember this statement as your friend " I do not consent to any searches"
    Live Free or Die!

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    Kildars wrote:
    I think people being alarmed at OC is the exception not the rule. I open carry daily and rarely run into incidents and most of the incidents I do see on a daily basis are positive.
    Have been open carrying for 20 months. No law enforcement encounters of any kind, and 95% of people who talk to me about it are people who have conceal carry permits and just didn't know OC was an option.

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