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Thread: Burglary in progress call, homeowner with shotgun shot 17 times

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/83048462.html
    Don't drink and NOT obey police commands!

    He told detectives he started to fire as he was backing away, heard gunshots and saw Harney fall. He didn't know the other officer had tripped.
    So you start to open fire...before your partner falls...
    You heard gunshots? Yes, that is what happens when you open fire, one guy does it, so does everyone else.
    Your partner fell and you thought he got shot OUT OF NOWHERE?
    Huh...


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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Poosharker wrote:
    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/83048462.html
    Don't drink and NOT obey police commands!
    I see you changed your initial comment indicating support for the gunowner/deceased, Poo. Good judgment.



    Here's all we need to know:

    Willard was carrying a loaded 12-gauge shotgun. When he didn't immediately heed commands to drop the weapon, and pointed it at the uniformed officers, three of them opened fire, according to the police reports.
    A total of 17 shots were fired. Willard was hit four times. He died just inside the door of his home.
    Willard, 31, had been out enjoying a night of drinking with friends. He apparently was locked out of his house, and had kicked the front door and then stumbled loudly through his back yard before forcing his way through the back door.



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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    This story has so many twists....

    Maybe the police officer should have shut his mouth and consulted an attorney


    Been harassed by the police? Yelled at by the anti-gun neighbors? Mother doesn't approve?

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    Man, oh man! That's terrible! Three separate officers pop off 17 rounds total and they hit the guy 4 times. I thought they taught those guys how to use guns.:shock::what:
    I am the person responsible for myself, my wife and my son. I take that VERY seriously.

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    I do not know the training given now, but when I was still working, most of the range quals were done shooting at paper. Few agencies had actual stress fire training. A few had the FATS program which was better than paper punching but still not great for stressful conditions. I was fortunate to experience stress training at the Treasury academy. anyone who would be interested in seeing what this was like, PM me and I will sttach a document describing it.

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    Anyone here have experience shooting at moving targets in the dark, while afraid and possibly being shot at? I'm guessing not many have done that. Why do people insist on making a huge deal out of how many rounds were fired?

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Why I want to take the dark house course at FAS.....real life conditions for shooting, especially when it comes to home defense. A situation that is the most likely for your average civilian to ever have to shoot in self defense.

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    Dr. Fresh wrote:
    SNIP Why do people insist on making a huge deal out of how many rounds were fired?
    Because the misses can hit innocent people. What is applied to the citizenis only fair to apply tocops--if you launch it, you own it.

    What is the other little saying? Everybullet you fire has a lawsuit attached to it?

    I recall just a few years ago a story in the news here in northern VA. BATFE goons in a Suburban bumpedinto another car while traveling on a busy interstate. (According to the story, the citizen was at fault. And you can guess the source on that information.) Thecitizen andBATmenpulled over. Thecitizenallegedly opened fire on the BATmen. The BATmen returned fire.The BATmen missed every shot. Every shot went somewhere besides its target along a busy interstate highway in high-density, traffic congested, Northern Virginia!!!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Wow, what a mess.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Dr. Fresh wrote:
    SNIP Why do people insist on making a huge deal out of how many rounds were fired?
    Because the misses can hit innocent people. What is applied to the citizenis only fair to apply tocops--if you launch it, you own it.

    What is the other little saying? Everybullet you fire has a lawsuit attached to it?

    I recall just a few years ago a story in the news here in northern VA. BATFE goons in a Suburban bumpedinto another car while traveling on a busy interstate. (According to the story, the citizen was at fault. And you can guess the source on that information.) Thecitizen andBATmenpulled over. Thecitizenallegedly opened fire on the BATmen. The BATmen returned fire.The BATmen missed every shot. Every shot went somewhere besides its target along a busy interstate highway in high-density, traffic congested, Northern Virginia!!!
    How how many self defense cases have been prosecuted as murder because the defender emptied his mag?

    Edit to clarify: I am not saying the police are wrong in this and agree with Trigger Dr. and others who have posted, no matter how good you are at the range, things are different in the real deal.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    I would not be so quick to criticize shooting under pressure, in the dark, shooting while moving or even while the threat is moving.

    Do not be so arrogant as to feel you can do all this without even being subjected doing this in a controlled environment and see what you know or don't know.

    The Marksman in Puyallup (just off hwy 512 and Canyon Road) offers a class that involved the F.A.T.S. system and you will be introduced to a couple of situations per student of a shoot don't shoot situation.

    The Firearms Academy of Seattle offers training in shooting moving targets, shooting while you are moving to cover, shooting from cover, shooting it low light, no light and with flashlight to draw from holster and engage targets in minimal time.

    After this you will have a better understanding of what influences that are being placed upon you in these situations except for being shot at.

    Law Enforcement are introduced into scenario's during training although not on an annual basis as qualifications are also at still targets.

    So go and find out where you stand as you may confirm you can do it, or surprised that it was different then you thought and walk away with knowing more then you knew when you walked in.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    BigDave wrote:
    I would not be so quick to criticize shooting under pressure, in the dark, shooting while moving or even while the threat is moving.

    Do not be so arrogant as to feel you can do all this without even being subjected doing this in a controlled environment and see what you know or don't know.

    The Marksman in Puyallup (just off hwy 512 and Canyon Road) offers a class that involved the F.A.T.S. system and you will be introduced to a couple of situations per student of a shoot don't shoot situation.

    The Firearms Academy of Seattle offers training in shooting moving targets, shooting while you are moving to cover, shooting from cover, shooting it low light, no light and with flashlight to draw from holster and engage targets in minimal time.

    After this you will have a better understanding of what influences that are being placed upon you in these situations except for being shot at.

    Law Enforcement are introduced into scenario's during training although not on an annual basis as qualifications are also at still targets.

    So go and find out where you stand as you may confirm you can do it, or surprised that it was different then you thought and walk away with knowing more then you knew when you walked in.
    I wasn't trying to say that I'd have hit him with all 17. I'm a terrible shot (working on it, I swear), just ask SVG. But, seeing how these guys ARE TRAINED for shooting under pressure and probably in the dark, you'd think they'd have done a little better than 23.5%.
    I am the person responsible for myself, my wife and my son. I take that VERY seriously.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    tyguy808 wrote:
    BigDave wrote:
    I would not be so quick to criticize shooting under pressure, in the dark, shooting while moving or even while the threat is moving.

    Do not be so arrogant as to feel you can do all this without even being subjected doing this in a controlled environment and see what you know or don't know.

    The Marksman in Puyallup (just off hwy 512 and Canyon Road) offers a class that involved the F.A.T.S. system and you will be introduced to a couple of situations per student of a shoot don't shoot situation.

    The Firearms Academy of Seattle offers training in shooting moving targets, shooting while you are moving to cover, shooting from cover, shooting it low light, no light and with flashlight to draw from holster and engage targets in minimal time.

    After this you will have a better understanding of what influences that are being placed upon you in these situations except for being shot at.

    Law Enforcement are introduced into scenario's during training although not on an annual basis as qualifications are also at still targets.

    So go and find out where you stand as you may confirm you can do it, or surprised that it was different then you thought and walk away with knowing more then you knew when you walked in.
    I wasn't trying to say that I'd have hit him with all 17. I'm a terrible shot (working on it, I swear), just ask SVG. But, seeing how these guys ARE TRAINED for shooting under pressure and probably in the dark, you'd think they'd have done a little better than 23.5%.
    They are not trained. Most police officers (patrol) put in 500 rounds a year.
    Live Free or Die!

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    gogodawgs wrote:
    They are not trained. Most police officers (patrol) put in 500 rounds a year.
    Hmmm, I put out that many last weekend.
    I am the person responsible for myself, my wife and my son. I take that VERY seriously.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    tyguy808 I was not implying that you were saying you could do better, it was posted for information and how to find out where you might be in that realm of shooting.

    This is because where can you find a range to let you do these things?
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    BigDave wrote:
    tyguy808 I was not implying that you were saying you could do better, it was posted for information and how to find out where you might be in that realm of shooting.

    This is because where can you find a range to let you do these things?
    Kitsap rifle and revolver club in Bremerton

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    tyguy808 wrote:
    gogodawgs wrote:
    They are not trained. Most police officers (patrol) put in 500 rounds a year.
    Hmmm, I put out that many last weekend.
    I have been shooting 50 every Friday. I am fortunate that Champion Arms is right down the street from where I work.

    Quotes from officers:
    Twice per year, 1 day, 1 night. 3,5,7,15,25 yd lines. 50 rounds.

    We qualify four times a year, from the 3, 7, 15, and 20 yard lines. One of the qualification courses is a night qualification. One is an off-duty weapon and shotgun qualification. One of 'em is a "duty ammo qualification" in which we shoot up all our old duty ammo and get new boxes. The last one is done during yearly 40 hour in-service.
    We qualify twice a year. 3ft. 5yds. 7yds. 15yds. 25yds. and 50 yds. We shoot center mass and head shots both. It is a 20 rd. course with time limits of as short as 3 seconds to 8 seconds depending on the distance. We shoot standing, high kneeling, and low kneeling from cover support and cover only positions. Unfortunately my dept. does not require night qualifications. They do have training shoots at night with, without lights but always a flashlight. By the way a trend has developed. Night shift guys who have been on nights for a while shoot better in the dark than in the daylight.
    http://forums.officer.com/forums/arc...hp/t-6370.html


    most less than 500 a year....some more as they do have access to the range...

    of course SWAT shoot more, but others shoot the bare min. (desk guys, detectives)

    I am not berating LEO, my buddies are LEO and fortunately I hunt with them and they shoot more as they are 2A advocates and carry off duty as well.

    I would be curious to Trigger Dr experiences???
    Live Free or Die!

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    I have had a hiuge response to my eaarlier post. This is not the document from the academy (FLETC), but my best recollection.

    Phase 1.

    Outdoor range, subdued lighting, up hill run 35yds, assume prone position engage target at 10 O’clock roll to your right onto your back reload, and engage target at 2 O’clock shooting from supine position overhead.

    Phase 2.

    Full daylight, outdoor range transition from left to right taking cover behind vehicle, engage multiple targets firing 9 rounds at 3 subjects. Move through a 3’ diameter culvert while reloading. Upon exiting the culvert negotiate a Hogan’s Alley scenario, shooting on the move and avoiding a hit on a civilian or hostage.

    Phase 3.

    Enter a dim, enclosed range, acclimate your eyes to the lighting and take a position in the shooting stall. On the floor of the stall is fired brass, lots of it. If carrying a revolver, the revolver will be empty and in your holster with retention engaged. The only light comes from rotating red and blue light bar. With 6 rounds in your hand and your hand at your groin, drop the rounds on the ground. Upon command, the paper silhouette begins moving toward you from 25 yds. You have 7 seconds to complete the scenario. Without taking your eyes from the target, drop to your knees and load your weapon enough to get 3 rounds in the target before it reaches the shooting stall.

    With a semi auto, your weapon will have an empty magazine inserted, and you will drop your loaded magazine on the floor from a release point near your groin. Upon command the silhouette starts toward you as you drop to your knees and without looking away from the advancing target, recover the loaded magazine, reload and get 5 rounds in the target before it gets to the shooting stall.

    There was no grading on this course of fire. It was pass / fail.

    Phase 3 was the toughest of all. Try loading a gun and hitting the target under those conditions in a 7 second time frame.



  19. #19
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    tyguy808 wrote:
    I wasn't trying to say that I'd have hit him with all 17. I'm a terrible shot (working on it, I swear), just ask SVG. But, seeing how these guys ARE TRAINED for shooting under pressure and probably in the dark, you'd think they'd have done a little better than 23.5%.
    Yep he couldn't hit for s&*^ LOL...... .
    Nah Tyler you seemed to be a pretty good shot.
    It is a misconception that LEO's constantly train and are good. My Uncle and some from their group, actually had a competition with the HPD in Hawaii. And the LEO's were blown out of the water.

    Statistics prove that gun owners are better shots in the unfortunate case of shoot out also. I believe it is because as gun owners we shoot because we like to and we want to be proficient. Where as for most LEO's it's a job.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  20. #20
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Yep he couldn't hit for s&*^ LOL...... .
    Nah Tyler you seemed to be a pretty good shot.
    It is a misconception that LEO's constantly train and are good. My Uncle and some from their group, actually had a competition with the HPD in Hawaii. And the LEO's were blown out of the water.

    Statistics prove that gun owners are better shots in the unfortunate case of shoot out also. I believe it is because as gun owners we shoot because we like to and we want to be proficient. Where as for most LEO's it's a job.
    Can you cite these statistics and the source, SVG?

    Those would be interesting.

  21. #21
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Another study examined newspaper reports of gun incidents in Missouri, involving police or civilians. In this study, civilians were successful in wounding, driving off, capturing criminals 83% of the time, compared with a 68% success rate for the police. Civilians intervening in crime were slightly less likely to be wounded than were police. Only 2% of shootings by civilians, but 11% of shootings by police, involved an innocent person mistakenly thought to be a criminal. [145]

    http://rkba.org/research/cramer/shall-issue.html#T145

    I need to learn to search better, I had better cites when I first looked for this statistic, but I didn't book mark them.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Interesting study, SVG, but I don't think it really addresses the question about police vs non-police marksmanship. Rather it's about the fact that when victim engages in self-defense, there's hardly ever any ambiguity about who's the bad guy, whereas police arriving on the scene have to sort it out.

    As your cited reference says:

    The Missouri research does not prove that civilians are more competent than police in armed confrontations. Civilians can often choose whether or not to intervene in a crime in progress, whereas police officers are required to intervene. Being forced to intervene in all cases, police officers would naturally be expected to have a lower success rate, and to make more mistakes...In addition, the Missouri study was not restricted to "carry" situations, but also included self-defense in the home. Persons using a gun to defend their own home, who know its layout much better than does an intruder, might be expected to have a higher success rate than would persons using a gun in a less familiar public setting.

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    kparker wrote:
    Interesting study, SVG, but I don't think it really addresses the question about police vs non-police marksmanship. Rather it's about the fact that when victim engages in self-defense, there's hardly ever any ambiguity about who's the bad guy, whereas police arriving on the scene have to sort it out.

    As your cited reference says:
    The Missouri research does not prove that civilians are more competent than police in armed confrontations. Civilians can often choose whether or not to intervene in a crime in progress, whereas police officers are required to intervene. Being forced to intervene in all cases, police officers would naturally be expected to have a lower success rate, and to make more mistakes...In addition, the Missouri study was not restricted to "carry" situations, but also included self-defense in the home. Persons using a gun to defend their own home, who know its layout much better than does an intruder, might be expected to have a higher success rate than would persons using a gun in a less familiar public setting.
    That is a good point. The sorting out thing. But sad too that there are many cases of Police shooting the wrong people. There are many cites on this I can't find the main one I read several months ago. So I chose the one that I thought would be the least "pro-gun" in fairness.

    http://www.gunfacts.info/

    Has many links. But sometimes they are hard to trace.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Dr. Fresh wrote:
    SNIP* Why do people insist on making a huge deal out of how many rounds were fired?
    Because the misses can hit innocent people.* What is applied to the citizen*is only fair to apply to*cops--if you launch it, you own it.

    What is the other little saying?* Every*bullet you fire has a lawsuit attached to it?

    I recall just a few years ago a story in the news here in northern VA.* BATFE goons in a Suburban bumped*into another car while traveling on a busy interstate.* (According to the story, the citizen was at fault.* And you can guess the source on that information.)* The*citizen and*BATmen*pulled over.* The*citizen*allegedly opened fire on the BATmen.* The BATmen returned fire.**The BATmen missed every shot.* Every shot went somewhere besides its target along a busy interstate highway in high-density, traffic congested, Northern Virginia!!!*
    Can you find a news report of this incident?

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    marshaul wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Dr. Fresh wrote:
    SNIP Why do people insist on making a huge deal out of how many rounds were fired?
    Because the misses can hit innocent people. What is applied to the citizenis only fair to apply tocops--if you launch it, you own it.

    What is the other little saying? Everybullet you fire has a lawsuit attached to it?

    I recall just a few years ago a story in the news here in northern VA. BATFE goons in a Suburban bumpedinto another car while traveling on a busy interstate. (According to the story, the citizen was at fault. And you can guess the source on that information.) Thecitizen andBATmenpulled over. Thecitizenallegedly opened fire on the BATmen. The BATmen returned fire.The BATmen missed every shot. Every shot went somewhere besides its target along a busy interstate highway in high-density, traffic congested, Northern Virginia!!!
    Can you find a news report of this incident?
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...070600009.html
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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