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Thread: Be Careful...

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    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9506660

    January 29th, 2010 @ 11:40am
    SANDY, Utah (AP) -- A Murray police officer is in good condition after accidentally shooting himself in the hip.

    Murray police Detective Kenny Bass says the officer accidentally shot himself while getting ready for work at his Sandy home Thursday afternoon. He was taken to a hospital in good condition.

    Bass says the officer is a 14-year veteran of the department. He says the officer was putting the gun in its holster when the incident happened.

    Bass says Murray police policy generally calls for weapons to be loaded when an officer is on duty or preparing for work.

  2. #2
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    YoZUpZ wrote:
    Bass says the officer is a 14-year veteran of the department. He says the officer was putting the gun in its holster when the incident happened.

    Bass says Murray police policy generally calls for weapons to be loaded when an officer is on duty or preparing for work.
    GLOCK?



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    HankT wrote:
    YoZUpZ wrote:
    Bass says the officer is a 14-year veteran of the department. He says the officer was putting the gun in its holster when the incident happened.

    Bass says Murray police policy generally calls for weapons to be loaded when an officer is on duty or preparing for work.
    GLOCK?

    This might make me want to start concealing... it would suck to have a cop (especially this one) point his gun at you from a MWAG call, and accidentally shoot you, heck... they shoot themselves... I know its illegal, but that wouldn't stop you from getting shot :shock:

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    Too bad people are too stupid to realize: Cops don't know all the laws, and most of them rarely train with firearms!

    Remember!Keep your finger off the trigger. Unless you're a cop, this rule does not apply to Police, they are exempt from this rule

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    Too bad people are too stupid to realize: Cops don't know all the laws, and most of them rarely train with firearms!
    Huh?

    Can you support this claim?

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    ABSOLUTELY! Thank you for bringing this up Hank! I have had 2 police officers tell me, they shoot ONCE every 3-6 months. That was enough to satisfy me! Thank youagain for reminding me to post that

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote:
    Too bad people are too stupid to realize: Cops don't know all the laws, and most of them rarely train with firearms!
    Huh?

    Can you support this claim?
    ABSOLUTELY! Thank you for bringing this up Hank! I have had 2 police officers tell me, they shoot ONCE every 3-6 months. That was enough to satisfy me! Thank youagain for reminding me to post that
    OK. You have a sample of 2.

    Out of how many?

    How many police officers are there....in the state.... in the U.S.....?

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    Hank, you question everything that EVERYONE says... I think you need to learn to post your own topics, so we can question every single thing you say, it sounds good to me

    2 officers were asked, 2 told me the same answer. I'm not sure if you know math, but thats 100%!

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    2 officers were asked, 2 told me the same answer. I'm not sure if you know math, but thats 100%!
    I know a small sample when I see one. And I know that only foolish/lazy people generalize from small samples to large populations.

    And, most importantly,unpersuasive people.




    b1ack5mith wrote:
    Hank, you question everything that EVERYONE says... I think you need to learn to post your own topics, so we can question every single thing you say, it sounds good to me
    217 topics started. How many have you started b5?


    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_us...pics_started=1

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    HankT wrote:


    b1ack5mith wrote:
    Hank, you question everything that EVERYONE says... I think you need to learn to post your own topics, so we can question every single thing you say, it sounds good to me
    217 topics started. How many have you started b5?


    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_us...pics_started=1
    Did you really just say that to show off? You just proved to me, and the rest of the forum, that you have no life. Will you tell the forum that you also play WoW and the Sims?

    Good day Sir!

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    YoZUpZ wrote:
    SNIP heck... they shoot themselves... I know its illegal, but that wouldn't stop you from getting shot :shock:
    What statute makes it illegal for a cop to shoot himself before he shoots you?

    Cite, please.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    HankT wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote:
    Too bad people are too stupid to realize: Cops don't know all the laws, and most of them rarely train with firearms!
    Huh?

    Can you support this claim?
    Can you support any counter-claim, Hank?

    Why do people assume that just because police officers carry guns that any significant portion of them are actually firearms enthusiasts or even do any more training with their firearms than is required by their departments?

    Do we assume that because police officers carry radios that some large portion of them are ham operators in their spare time?

    Do we assume that because officers use computers in their cars and elsewhere in their jobs that any significant number of them spend their free time playing with Linux?

    Would any rational person assume that because police officers use cars in their jobs that any significant portion of them are into building hot rods, restoring old cars, watching NASCAR, or any other auto related hobby?

    Do you figure that because police officers carry handcuffs that any significant number of them use handcuffs in their private "recreation"?

    What is YOUR sample size to suggest that police officers, generally, are doing much more practice or training with their firearms than the bare minimum required by their department?

    Note, I'm not saying what the number is or isn't. I'm just pointing out that to challenge someone else's claim is one thing. But to support a counter claim is quite another thing.

    Charles


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Ever seen the CCW ads, "I am Cop for 14 years and we are professionals and know more about Conceal Carry Permit and the laws then a NRA Cerified Pistol Instructor!" Or something like that, I say this proves that is not the case!

    Can anyone say GLOCK! Good thing he was not using a "Smart Carry" holster! :shock:
    Utah Certified Concealed Firearms Permit Instructor
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    HankT wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote:
    TIn a survey of criminals(read that as FELONS IN PRISON), Professors James D. Wright and Peter Rossi of the Social and Demographic Research Institute at the University of Massachusetts conducted a study in 1982 and 1983 paid for by the U.S. Department of Justice. (Professor Rossi was a former President of the American Sociological Association.) The researchers interviewed 1,874 imprisoned felons in ten states.

    88% of the criminals surveyed by Wright and Rossi agreed with the statement that, “A criminal who wants a handgun is going to get one.”(read this to mean that these felons are not obeying the gun laws and the Legislature cannot figure this out)

    Wright and Rossi reported that:
    81% of interviewees agreed that a “smart criminal” will try to determine if a potential victim is armed.

    74% indicated that burglars avoided occupied dwellings, because of fear of being shot.

    57% said that most criminals feared armed citizens more than the police.

    40% of the felons said that they had been deterred from committing a particular crime, because they believed that the potential victim was armed.

    57% of the felons who had used guns themselves said that they had encountered potential victims who were armed.

    34% of the criminal respondents said that they had been scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed citizen.
    oo bad people are too stupid to realize: Cops don't know all the laws, and most of them rarely train with firearms!
    Huh?

    Can you support this claim?
    I am looking for the Article that states that Cop killers practice more with a firearm then the Police. I found this first!


    Utah Certified Concealed Firearms Permit Instructor
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    HankT wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote:
    Too bad people are too stupid to realize: Cops don't know all the laws, and most of them rarely train with firearms!
    Huh?

    Can you support this claim?
    FOUND IT! :celebrate

    New Findings from FBI about Cop Attackers & Their Weapons

    New findings on how offenders train with, carry and deploy the weapons used to attack police officers have emerged in a 5‐year study by the FBI research summary called Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers.

    Data reveals that most would be cop killers:

    Show signs of being armed that officers miss. Have more experience using deadly force in "street combat" than their intended victims. Practice with firearms more often and shoot more accurately. Have no hesitation whatsoever about pulling the trigger.

    "Violent Encounters" also reports in detail on:

    The personal characteristics of attacked officers and their assaulters. The role of perception in life‐threatening confrontations. The myths of memory that can hamper OIS investigations. The suicide‐by‐cop phenomenon.

    From a pool of more than 800 incidents, the researchers selected 40, involving 43 offenders and 50 officers, visited crime scenes and extensively interviewed surviving officers and attackers alike.

    Weapon Choice

    Predominately handguns were used. All but one was obtained illegally, usually in street transactions or in thefts. None of the firearms in the study was obtained from gun shows. Only 1 offender hand‐picked a particular gun "because he felt it would do the most damage to a human being." None of the attackers interviewed was "hindered by any law ‐federal, state or local that has ever been established to prevent gun ownership.”

    Familiarity

    Several of the offenders began regularly to carry weapons when they were 9 to 12 years old, although the average age was 17. Gang members especially started young. Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% regularly practiced with handguns. Averaging 23 practice sessions a year usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods, back yards and street corners in known drug‐trafficking areas.

    One spoke of being motivated to improve his gun skills by his belief that officers go to the range two, three times a week to practice. In reality, victim officers in the study averaged just 14 hours of sidearm training and 2.5 qualifications per year.

    Only 6 of the 50 officers reported practicing regularly with handguns apart from what their department required, and that was mostly in competitive shooting. Overall, the offenders practiced more often than the officers they assaulted. The offender quoted above about his practice motivation, fired 12 rounds at an officer, striking him 3 times. The officer fired 7 rounds, all misses.

    More than 40% of the offenders had been involved in actual shooting confrontations before they feloniously assaulted an officer. Ten of these "street combat veterans," all from "inner‐city, drug‐trafficking environments," had taken part in 5 or more "criminal firefight experiences" in their lifetime.

    Only 8 of the 50 LEO victims had participated in a prior shooting; 1 had been involved in 2 previously, another in 3. Seven of the 8 had killed offenders.

    Concealment

    The offenders said they most often hid guns on their person in the front waistband, with the groin area and the small of the back nearly tied for second place. Some occasionally gave their weapons to another person to carry, "most often a female companion." None regularly used a holster. 40% at least sometimes carried a backup weapon. In motor vehicles, they most often kept their firearm readily available on their person, or, less often, under the seat. In residences, most stashed their weapon under a pillow, on a nightstand, under the mattress all within immediate reach while in bed.

    Almost all carried when on the move and strong majorities did so when socializing, committing crimes or being at home. About one‐ third brought weapons with them to work. Male offenders said time and time again that female officers tend to search them more thoroughly than male officers.

    In prison, most of the offenders were more afraid to carry contraband or weapons when a female CO was on duty. On the street, however, both male and female officers too often regard female subjects as less of a threat, assuming that they are not going to have a gun. Researchers concluded that more female offenders are armed today than 20 years ago.

    Shooting Style

    Twenty‐six of the offenders claimed to be instinctive shooters, pointing and firing the weapon without consciously aligning the sights. They practice getting the gun out and using it. They shoot for effect. Or as one of the offenders put it: "We're not working with no marksmanship. We just putting it in your direction, you know. It don't matter long as it's gonna hit you. If it's up at your head or your chest, down at your legs, whatever. Once I squeeze and you fall, then if I want to execute you, then I could go from there."

    Hit Rate

    Offenders delivered at least some rounds on target in their encounters. Nearly 70% of assailants were successful in that regard with handguns, compared to about 40% of the victim officers. Efforts of offenders and officers to get on target were considered successful if any rounds struck, regardless of the number fired. The offenders might have had an advantage because in all but 3 cases they fired first, usually catching the officer by surprise. Indeed, the report points out" 10 of the total victim officers had been wounded and thus impaired before they returned gunfire at their attackers.

    Missed Cues

    Officers would less likely be caught off guard by attackers if they were more observant of indicators of concealed weapons. These include manners of dress, ways of moving and unconscious gestures often related to carrying. Officers should look for unnatural protrusions or bulges in the waist, back and crotch areas, watch for shirts that appear rippled or wavy on one side of the body while the fabric on the other side appears smooth. In warm weather, multilayered clothing inappropriate to the temperature may be a giveaway. Because they eschew holsters, offenders reported frequently touching a concealed gun with hands or arms to assure themselves that it is still hidden, secure and accessible and hasn't shifted. Such gestures are especially noticeable whenever individuals change body positions, such as standing, sitting or exiting a vehicle. If they run, they may need to keep a constant grip on a hidden gun to control it. Just as cops generally blade their body to make their sidearm less accessible, armed criminals do the same in encounters with LEOs to ensure concealment and easy access.

    Mind set

    Thirty‐six of the 50 officers in the study had experienced hazardous situations where they had the legal authority to use deadly force but chose not to shoot. They averaged 4 such prior incidents before the encounters that the researchers investigated. It appeared clear that none of these officers were willing to use deadly force against an offender if other options were available. The offenders were of a different mind‐set entirely. In fact, the study team did not realize how cold blooded the younger generation of offender is. They have been exposed to killing after killing, they fully expect to get killed and they don't hesitate to shoot anybody, including a police officer. Offenders typically displayed no moral or ethical restraints in using firearms. In fact, the street combat veteran offenders survived by developing a shoot‐first mentality. Officers never can assume that a criminal is unarmed until they have thoroughly searched the person and the surroundings themselves. Nor, in the interest of personal safety, can officers let their guards down in any type of law enforcement situation.

    Source: NC Air National Guard, FBI

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    HankT wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote:
    2 officers were asked, 2 told me the same answer. I'm not sure if you know math, but thats 100%!
    I know a small sample when I see one. And I know that only foolish/lazy people generalize from small samples to large populations.
    So how large a sample would be sufficient? How about five?

    I ask that, because a sample consisting of five randomly-selected officers, none of whom practice more than what is required by their department, would not only be statistically significant, it would more than satisfy the generally-required 95% confidence interval.

    Specifically, it would mean there's only a 5% chance that more than half of officers practice on their own.

    With two officers in the sample, the hypothesis is supported to a 75% confidence level. Not tremendously convincing, but it certainly is enough to put the burden of proof on YOU.

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    Okay, this isnt going to make me popular but I will tell the story like it was. Maybe someone might learn from it. I was a lowly guard. But I will bet I handeled guns every bit as much and likely more, than most LEOs. That is because of over 35 years of a average of 65 hours a week carrying a gun. I worked ungodly overtime. And by the way on that job we requalified and trained as much as most police or sheriffs depts. At the time I had about30 years in. I was tired, I had done 12 hours, it was shift change, and maybe 6 officers were sitting around. On this deal I was going to give my company gun to the relieving officer. I reached and absently mindedly cocked the gun in the holster! I caught myself, and walked out to feigh spitting as I dipped snuff anyway. Went out and corrected the matter.

    Another time I and my best friend, a seasoned LEO even older than me, went somewhere and I found a set of new grips I had been looking for, for a model 60 S&W. (Thats a .38 snub for you auto guys). His house was nearby. I unloaded my revolver, got a screwdriver from him and changed grips. We both were well experianced gun aficiados, both carried on the job for years. Bill looked at my gun (unloaded), picked it up and dry fired it at a rug nailed to the liveing room wall with a elk on it for a aiming point. No big deal, we were always checking out each others stuff. When he got through, I right in front of him reloaded. He was looking me in the eye talking as I did. I made the mistake of not putting it back in my pocket immediately instead of leaveing it on the coffee table between us. Bill reached over, picked up the gun again and fired at the elk rug just as I hollered HEY! He cussed me out and thought initaly I had tricked him on purpose. At first he couldnt belive I obvisouly loaded the gun under his nose and he didnt notice it!

    The moral of that story is dont be so darn judgemental! When people are new to guns, just learning etc, its really a novelty to them and they no doubt are more aware due to theseriousness, etc than a old vet is! When you wear a gun all day, every day, its easy to get complacant when the novelty wears off. I have been around a number of similar incidents like that with other old timers, but those were the only two that I can think of that happened to me personaly. I also knew a police chief in my small home town when I was young that shot himself in the butt in the restroom at city hall.


    Here is another incident I just remembered. Another friend of mine was close to 65 years old at the time. I worked with him. He had been a retired LEO, and had done another 20 years or so with us as a armed guard. He was right at retirement age with us on his secound career, so this guy had about a good 45 years already packing for a liveing! He had done his rounds in the middle of our graveyard shift and was passing the time in the cheifs office. Office was empty and the chief home sleeping. He unloaded his gun (he thought) and was dry fireing at the clock on the wall. BANG! He blew the clock dead center off the wall! The chief himself was a hard nosed LAPD retired captain also doing a secound career. My buddy went in to see the chief after he came in the morning. He threw his badge on the chiefs desk, the chief handed the badge back, told him to put it back on, and said, I woulda fired ya if you missed!

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    Dead center of the clock?? GOOD SHOT on his part!

    This didn't make you unpopular. Stuff happens, atleast you didn't have the gun go off.


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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    Hank, you question everything that EVERYONE says... I think you need to learn to post your own topics, so we can question every single thing you say, it sounds good to me

    2 officers were asked, 2 told me the same answer. I'm not sure if you know math, but thats 100%!
    So you tell him he needs to post his own topics and when he shows you that he does, you get on him for it?



    And I just asked four LEO's who told me they shoot anywhere between once and three+ times a month.



    That's 100% on my math too.

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    GenkiSudo wrote:
    And I just asked four LEO's who told me they shoot anywhere between once and three+ times a month.

    That's 100% on my math too.
    That is anomalous with respect to the results of the FBI report.

    Of course, a big problem with drawing conclusions from samples is making sure the samples are selected at random. If you met these cops at the range, or through some other shooting-related event or organization, it wouldn't be a useful sample.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Damn Cop Killer bullets....
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

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    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote:
    Too bad people are too stupid to realize: Cops don't know all the laws, and most of them rarely train with firearms!
    Huh?

    Can you support this claim?
    Can you support any counter-claim, Hank?

    Why do people assume that just because police officers carry guns that any significant portion of them are actually firearms enthusiasts or even do any more training with their firearms than is required by their departments?

    Do we assume that because police officers carry radios that some large portion of them are ham operators in their spare time?

    Do we assume that because officers use computers in their cars and elsewhere in their jobs that any significant number of them spend their free time playing with Linux?

    Would any rational person assume that because police officers use cars in their jobs that any significant portion of them are into building hot rods, restoring old cars, watching NASCAR, or any other auto related hobby?

    Do you figure that because police officers carry handcuffs that any significant number of them use handcuffs in their private "recreation"?

    What is YOUR sample size to suggest that police officers, generally, are doing much more practice or training with their firearms than the bare minimum required by their department?

    Note, I'm not saying what the number is or isn't. I'm just pointing out that to challenge someone else's claim is one thing. But to support a counter claim is quite another thing.

    Charles

    I'm pretty sure to be a cop at least one of those above statements have to apply to you

    /s

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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    ABSOLUTELY! Thank you for bringing this up Hank! I have had 2 police officers tell me, they shoot ONCE every 3-6 months. That was enough to satisfy me! Thank youagain for reminding me to post that
    I was with three departments. One very large, one medium and one small. All three required yearly qualifications. That's once a year folks! I currently shoot once a *month!* Ok, so I don't shoot any full autos, but I do shoot common handguns officers use on and off duty. I consider myself better trained than the average LEO. (my next door neighbor is a deputy sheriff and I'll bet him two doughnuts I am more proficient than he is):celebrate

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    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    ''I'll bet him two doughnuts I am more proficient than he is):celebrate''

    The ultimate cop to cop bet!

    MD

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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    HankT wrote:


    b1ack5mith wrote:
    Hank, you question everything that EVERYONE says... I think you need to learn to post your own topics, so we can question every single thing you say, it sounds good to me
    217 topics started. How many have you started b5?


    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_us...pics_started=1
    Did you really just say that to show off? You just proved to me, and the rest of the forum, that you have no life. Will you tell the forum that you also play WoW and the Sims?

    Good day Sir!

    hehe, I think my "Schmedley" detector just went off! Yes it did, it alerted me to the presence of one who ismaybe fascinated with arguing down to the smallest semantics imagineable then showing off!Fascinating, perhaps??I just had to say it before I shut the hole in my face!

    (Dion Wood). MY FREEDOM PAGE[/COLOR] with valuable links to ALTERNATIVE MEDIA, Internet Radio shows and other sites to restore our FREEDOM & LIBERTYhttp://www.QRZ.com/db/KB9QFH TELEPHONE: +1(800)808-KIWI that's +1(800)808-5494 Tollfree. "NewZealander By Birth, American By The Grace Of God." See also http://www.facebook.com/NewZealandAmerican & http://RTR.org/NewZealandAmerican IN MEMORY OF OUR GOD, OUR RELIGION, AND FREEDOM, AND OUR PEACE, OUR WIVES, AND OUR CHILDREN" (The Title Of LIBERTY)

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