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Thread: how do you respond when someone tells you "YOU CANT DO THAT!"

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    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    had a man today in Flint ask me if I was the "po lice"

    I responded no. he quick responded, mainnnn you can't do that, if the police round here see you he'll shoot you dead!

    I politely told him "I absolutely can carry like this and if you can own a gun, you can too, frankly, if it was illegal I wouldn't be doing it"

    he said "main I got my ccw and I know you can't do that"

    I said "I also have a cpl, and I can do it."

    he just kept stonewalling me with NO YOU CANT DO THAT I KNOW IM RIGHT.

    how should I handle situations like this?

    I politely told him I had dealings with the police quite often, and none have ever shot me.

    thoughts?

    please keep the legality from your answers, most topics get side tracked with law citations about firearms. we all know we are within our legal right to do what we do, how can I respond to people who stonewall?

    had a few positive encounters today as well.

    talked to a kid young kid, about 10 maybe, at blockbuster I asked him if there was anything rad I should rent, he told me he was looking for call of duty, then his eyes lit up real big when he noticed my gun and kind of shyed away to the other side.

    once I was on the other side he talked to me for a minute then his dad came over and we talked video games for a second, then his eyes lit up too, "you just walk around packin like that?"

    I responded "absolutely, it's 100% legal, if you'd like more information check out opencarry.org"

    as I walked away I heard his son ask "don't you have to have a licence to carry a gun?"

    his father responded that i probably did. I think it was a positive encounter.

    the cashier asked me on my way out "you just open carry like that?" I said yeah and he told me how awesome it was to see people doing it and asked if I got hassled a lot.

    i got a couple thumbs up from dudes at best buy.

    I carry a brown galco shoulder holster and mostly wear black and white clothes so it's always highly contrasted and visible.

    anyway, sidetracked, answer my question!

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    drown him

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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    Unfortunately some people are unwilling to accept that OC is legal. I believe a lot of this is due to poor training in their CPL class. Most people who have be unreceptive to OC are those that have CPLs. I've sat in on many classes to hear instructors scare the class into thinking if you even print or your gun shows for a split second you'll be charged with disturbing the peace or brandishing. On at least a dozen occasions I've had recent CPL recipients approach me and say I was brandishing. Most were open to learning OC was legal and upset their instructor lied to them. If I see they have no willingness to learn I refer them to the website, hand them a brochure if I have one available and walk away.

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    People usually ask "are you a police officer". I find this hilarious given my rotund physique. If i were a cop I'd be the baddest doughnut munching cop on the force. But i just respond "no I am not"

    Often their next question is either about a "ccw" occasionally they get it right and say CPL

    But my favorite question is " How can you carry a gun like that?" to which i respond that "the belt helps a lot"

    I have as of yet not had a roving legal scholar inform me how "you can't do that" I guess my answer would be to smile and say "call the police" "we can wait till they get here" or better yet ask him if he would be willing to make a citizens arrest. I would ask him if he seemed to be willing to go the citizens arrest route to ball park his net worth for me so i can let my lawyer know how much we can get. I'm sure said legal beagle would probably just tell me they are trying to do me a favor cause they know the law and they don't want to see me get in trouble.
    :celebrate

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    After about the third "you can't do that", I might just say, "OK. I can't do it." And walk off.

    I've only once had a "You can't do that." A cab driver in line behind me at a convenience store. I told him real confident, "Sure I can. Wait right here, I'll get you (a copy of the law, or something)." Then I brought him an envelope I keep in the car with all the little legal points printed out from official websites and so forth. Of course, this only works if your car is just a few strides away.

    I think a big factor is the confidence level in the OCers reply. Forceful is one thing, but casual is almost sublime in its effect of undermining the other party's confidence. "Oh, yeah. (yawn) Been legal for years. 1776 in fact."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    sprinklerguy28 wrote:
    Unfortunately some people are unwilling to accept that OC is legal. I believe a lot of this is due to poor training in their CPL class. Most people who have be unreceptive to OC are those that have CPLs. I've sat in on many classes to hear instructors scare the class into thinking if you even print or your gun shows for a split second you'll be charged with disturbing the peace or brandishing. On at least a dozen occasions I've had recent CPL recipients approach me and say I was brandishing. Most were open to learning OC was legal and upset their instructor lied to them. If I see they have no willingness to learn I refer them to the website, hand them a brochure if I have one available and walk away.
    That's about the gist of it right there.

    Talking about matters of which one's knowledge is so severely limited that they cannot even have valid information, and even still spread misinformation is ignorance (for lack of a better term. I'd imagine that most of us can't avoid it at one time or another). Clinging to those beliefs when presented with pertinent facts is "willfully ignorant", and I'm not so ignorant that I believe I'll change the sort who has such character instilled into their personality makeup.

    I might tell them that the state's AG office has been on all the major local networks on record as saying "it's legal" after the Hasting's stroll.

    I might also tell them that as well as the AG, the MSP also say it's legal.

    I might also point out that the statute on brandishing doesn't apply to OC, and there is no way they will find it in the statute, and that there is an AG opinion clarifying the matter.

    I once talked to someone who just looked me in the eye and said,"It's brandishing", after having been told that I knew better and that I could prove it. I consider that willful ignorance, and I'll not waste my time with them. When they demonstrate a reluctance to listen to reason, logic, and law, then there really isn't much to do with them because by doing so they have demonstrated that they care not about facts when those facts get in the way of their fantasy world.

    I've gotten to the point where when someone tells me something like "OC is illegal.", I just dismissively reply by saying, "I know what I'm talking about. " I did this with a woman at church who saw one of my MOC T-Shirts. She tried to argue with me that, "It isn't smart." I just smiled and said that I've been around people doing it in various, high-traffic areas in and around Grand Rapids, and even had the police present while nothing happened. Her response? "It isn't smart". I just didn't have the heart to tell her that neither was clinging to ignorance just because it shatter's the myth of one's agenda so I just said, "I know what I'm talking about." If a person isn't going to at least be respectful enough to consider that, "Just maybe I know more about it than them." then I see no reason why I should waste my time trying to enlighten the willfully ignorant.

    I once saw Sal Glesser (president of Spyderco) post on the forums something to the effect that, "If you argue with an idiot on the internet, then people watching won't be able to tell the difference between the two of you.". If people don't care to learn from what I (as well as others) have thoroughly researched, then I figure there are probably enough more productive things for me to do with my time than try to convince them that I am correct and they are wrong. I'll give them the information, and I'll correct misinformation, but I'll not waste my time with the willfully ignorant. There are better things to do, and enough people who are interested enough in the truth to listen.

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    Regular Member bobn911's Avatar
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    Sometimes when I get asked if I'm a cop I have to stop and think of who is asking. I am a reserve cop. I always say no to kids and their parents because I don't want them to think you have to be a cop to OC,and sayI'm a reserve toLE if I'm asked.

    I did make one, what I feel as a, bad blunder to a young kid. He, with wide eyes, asked if it was real and why did I carry a gun. I said yes it's real and I carry because I can. I should have said yes it's real and I carry to protect myself. Lesson learned.

    Later, Bob
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    Regular Member bobn911's Avatar
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    Double tap. Sorry
    Life Member: NRA (Benefactor), GOA, SAF, MUCC, and Case Collectors Club
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    WHY ! and carry oc cards on you to pass out it helps,

    the cards make people think more (in my opinion) becouse they figure you have taken the time to make cards, and you may know what you are talking about.

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    mastiff69 wrote:
    WHY ! and carry oc cards on you to pass out it helps,

    *the cards make people think more (in my opinion) becouse they figure you have taken the time to make cards, and you may know what you are talking about.*
    Yep the easy and best solution is after any discussion hand them an MOC pamphlet and card and be on your way.

  11. #11
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    kyleplusitunes wrote:
    had a man today in Flint ask me if I was the "po lice"

    I responded no. he quick responded, mainnnn you can't do that, if the police round here see you he'll shoot you dead!

    I politely told him "I absolutely can carry like this and if you can own a gun, you can too, frankly, if it was illegal I wouldn't be doing it"

    he said "main I got my ccw and I know you can't do that"

    I said "I also have a cpl, and I can do it."

    he just kept stonewalling me with NO YOU CANT DO THAT I KNOW IM RIGHT.

    how should I handle situations like this?

    I politely told him I had dealings with the police quite often, and none have ever shot me.

    thoughts?

    please keep the legality from your answers, most topics get side tracked with law citations about firearms. we all know we are within our legal right to do what we do, how can I respond to people who stonewall?

    had a few positive encounters today as well.

    talked to a kid young kid, about 10 maybe, at blockbuster I asked him if there was anything rad I should rent, he told me he was looking for call of duty, then his eyes lit up real big when he noticed my gun and kind of shyed away to the other side.

    once I was on the other side he talked to me for a minute then his dad came over and we talked video games for a second, then his eyes lit up too, "you just walk around packin like that?"

    I responded "absolutely, it's 100% legal, if you'd like more information check out opencarry.org"

    as I walked away I heard his son ask "don't you have to have a licence to carry a gun?"

    his father responded that i probably did. I think it was a positive encounter.

    the cashier asked me on my way out "you just open carry like that?" I said yeah and he told me how awesome it was to see people doing it and asked if I got hassled a lot.

    i got a couple thumbs up from dudes at best buy.

    I carry a brown galco shoulder holster and mostly wear black and white clothes so it's always highly contrasted and visible.

    anyway, sidetracked, answer my question!
    One of our members has the best response. He say to them okay if you are right I will give you my gun, but if you are wrong you have to give me yours. Then let him prove himself right. I also heard a rumor that one our members won $500 off a LEO on a bet like this.

    Money talks.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    I also heard a rumor that one our members won $500 off a LEO on a bet like this.
    hahaha...sucker.

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    "I can, I am, and I will!"
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

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    1776"

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    One of our members has the best response. He say to them okay if you are right I will give you my gun, but if you are wrong you have to give me yours. . . .
    (Raises hand) That was my suggestion.

    Or, if they don't have a gun, estimate the costof your gun and tell 'em that's what they canthrow in the pot on your little wager.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    dougwg wrote:
    drown him
    +1


    or, failing that, you could ask them to provide you with the law that makes it illegal.

    You could also tell them to off... but that might be bad for our image.

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    I had a friend fresh out of the academy tell me “I can’t do that”. Then he proceeded to tell me I can’t carry a pocket knife either. This could be the root cause of many problems we read about here. The initial training some officers are receiving is lacking and false.

    Don't even get me started on what he said when I told him I did not have to carry ID when OCing.


    ETA to the OP: youtried but there is not too much else you could do other than walk away and say okay. The funny thing is he was probably telling his friends that night about how you can OC.



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    Lacking seems to be more prevalent than false, at least from the conversations I've had with recent academy grads.

    It seems that many of them will fill in the blanks by themselves and then suggest that they just learned it in the academy. Once pressed, all that I have spoken to have finally admitted, "well, that wasn't really covered in class..". And it isn't just about guns.

    I really think too much time is spent at the academy teaching take-down techniques, interrogation/interview techniques, and high speed driving and not nearly enough about the actual law, constitution and rights of the people. The fact that so many officers blatantly disregard the bill of rights tells me that it's not a choice, it's a fundamental lack of understanding.

    The Lansing event is a perfect example. A dozen officers and not one of them decided to protect the rights of the people. I simply don't believe that a dozen officers made a choice to disregard those rights. I believe that a dozen officers didn't completely understand that what they were doing was a gross violation of the 4th amendment.

    When an officer is sworn in, they swear to uphold the laws of the United States and the State of Michigan and the constitution of both. I've never heard a swearing in that included "I solemnly swear to write x tickets per week" or "to interrogate and search whenever possible".

    The swearing in, for the most part, is the same as it has been for many many years. The things that are stated in that oath are clearly the things that use to be regarded as the most important duties of an officer. Serve, Protect, Uphold. That even the LEO educational institutions now teach so little of those things is a shame. It's also the root cause of a great number of the civil rights violations that we so commonly see.

    JMO.
    Ben

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    Oh, and Wolverine, please adjust your state to Michigan so that we get credit for having you as a member.

    Click "My Account" up at the top and then "Profile" to make the change.

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    wolverine1856 wrote:
    Welcome Wolverine

    The site does not recognize a Michigan location when it's keyed-in all on one line in your Profile.

    Go to Profile and pick USA under Country. After doing this an addtional box (State) will appear where you pick Michigan.

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    PilotPTK wrote:
    Lacking seems to be more prevalent than false, at least from the conversations I've had with recent academy grads.

    It seems that many of them will fill in the blanks by themselves and then suggest that they just learned it in the academy. Once pressed, all that I have spoken to have finally admitted, "well, that wasn't really covered in class..". And it isn't just about guns.

    I really think too much time is spent at the academy teaching take-down techniques, interrogation/interview techniques, and high speed driving and not nearly enough about the actual law, constitution and rights of the people. The fact that so many officers blatantly disregard the bill of rights tells me that it's not a choice, it's a fundamental lack of understanding.

    The Lansing event is a perfect example. A dozen officers and not one of them decided to protect the rights of the people. I simply don't believe that a dozen officers made a choice to disregard those rights. I believe that a dozen officers didn't completely understand that what they were doing was a gross violation of the 4th amendment.

    When an officer is sworn in, they swear to uphold the laws of the United States and the State of Michigan and the constitution of both. I've never heard a swearing in that included "I solemnly swear to write x tickets per week" or "to interrogate and search whenever possible".

    The swearing in, for the most part, is the same as it has been for many many years. The things that are stated in that oath are clearly the things that use to be regarded as the most important duties of an officer. Serve, Protect, Uphold. That even the LEO educational institutions now teach so little of those things is a shame. It's also the root cause of a great number of the civil rights violations that we so commonly see.

    JMO.
    Ben
    You hit the nail on it's head. They (Officers) for the most part are ignorant of the law. I don't blame them as they are educated by the system to believe what they believe which is often wrong. The agency they work for are staffed with liberal agenda superiors who dumb down the force with wrong information and the agenda folks there often "forget" to infomr the officers of the laws as they are rulled on or opined on by the legal system when it goes against their agenda. Then when they are called on the carpet for this they scream they don't have enough funding and then it's forgotten unless their funds are hit with a law suit. I have spent seveal years informing a number of officers I know of the real situation. Most had NO idea OC was legal because they were told by the Dept it was NOT!

    This again falls under what I have said for years we the people need to win the hearts and minds of the Police and LE community. Most when allowed to see the truth will change their mindset. Buy a cop a cup of coffee and hand him a OC hand out. The sudden hearing by an officer "I got that" when they are trying to pay for a cup of coffee or a soda throws them completely because they are used to most of the community seeing them as adversaries. I know because I have done it, and that 75 cents is worth much more when I hand them a informational hand out. I have done this for other causes. Now I am thinking of doing such for this cause as well. Even if you object to that, just walking up and saying hello while they enjoy their coffee of sandwich and handing them a leaflet and thanking them for doing a great job will throw them. It rarely ever happens and you just might win a heart and mind. Yes some cops are jerks but so are some garbage men, and so are some right here on this site as evidenced by the constant vitriol by some.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    I meant drown him with facts

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    ChuckWagon-SMVM wrote:
    People usually ask "are you a police officer". I find this hilarious given my rotund physique. If i were a cop I'd be the baddest doughnut munching cop on the force. But i just respond "no I am not" ...
    You've obviously never been to Eaton Rapids. They have (had?) an officer there who weighs more than I do, and is shorter than me. I am 6'2" tall and weigh in at 285 lbs. But, it's possible he's had a heart attack since the last time I saw him.

    Big Gay Al
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  23. #23
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    dougwg wrote:
    I meant drown him with facts
    meh, either way.

    In any case whenever someone asks if I'm a cop, they always have this like... "I'm really nervous but I'm pretending to make a joke so you can't tell" tone.

    Like when I went to Dunkin' Donuts the other day, and someone asked me "oh, are you undercover? *nervous chuckle*"

    Last time someone tried to tell me "My dad has a CCW and that is illegal", he waited until I left and told my girlfriend. I went back there the next day, [he was an employee] and handed him an MOC trifold, while carrying of course.

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    sprinklerguy28 wrote:
    Unfortunately some people are unwilling to accept that OC is legal. I believe a lot of this is due to poor training in their CPL class. Most people who have be unreceptive to OC are those that have CPLs. I've sat in on many classes to hear instructors scare the class into thinking if you even print or your gun shows for a split second you'll be charged with disturbing the peace or brandishing. On at least a dozen occasions I've had recent CPL recipients approach me and say I was brandishing. Most were open to learning OC was legal and upset their instructor lied to them. If I see they have no willingness to learn I refer them to the website, hand them a brochure if I have one available and walk away.

    I was almost thrown out of my CPL course for bringing this up. I attempted to argue, but the instructor quite literally said, "I will refuse to certify you if I think that you are going to leave here with the intention of openly carrying." I just shut up and prayed for the end of the class to come quickly.

    He gave the standard "you can't carry open with a CPL/you MUST conceal" and "If your pistol shows even for a second you are brandishing".

    By the way, this was at Advanced Ranges in Flint. I love their facility, but I won't take any more classes there.

    I was extremely disappointed by this. I had gone there about a year ago and I was really impressed by Steve Fisher from MDFI when I took his Handgun 101 course. From that moment I had planned to take my CPL course there. Unfortunately, Steve is no longer afiliated with AR and they have this other guy in there. His name is Wayne McIntyre, formerly of the Genessee County Sheriff's Department, and he claims to be with a company called Progressive Combatives, but I couldn't find anything about them upon searching.

    Sorry if this was OT.


  25. #25
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    I open carry at least a few times every week, and i've yet to have anybody tell me "you can't do that!"


    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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