Where can one OC in PFZ and how?

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(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

(c) A sports arena or stadium.

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under Michigan liquor control code, ..., where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the business...

(e)Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that propery or facility.

(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

(g) A hospital.

(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college or university.

(3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

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Let's just whittle these places down. Subsections 1(b), 1(c), 1(g), and 1(h) are all very clear.

You cannot carry your pistol concealed at a day care or place where children are being cared for, a sports arena or stadium, a hospital, or a dormitory or classroom of an institution of higher education. However, subsection (3) allows for the pistol to be concealed in the parking areas.

This means that we can drive to these places, take off the pistol, secure it safely in the vehicle, and then proceed to do our business; or get out of the vehicle and make sure that the pistol is 100% visible to the whole world and go about our business as long it is not posted that firearms are not allowed.

However, one must recall that MCL 750.234d states that a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of ...a day care center, a sports arena, ora hospitalamong other places. It goes on in subsection 2(c) to states that the law does not apply to "a person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon."

So, taking these two statutes together, a person with a valid CPL from Michigan or its equivalent in any other state may openly carry in these areas.

Open carry is not clearly defined to state how much of the firearm must be exposed to be open. Therefore, to be sure that one is open carrying (unless they want to be the case of first impression and can fund that), let's make sure our firearm is proudly displayed on our bodies in 100% full view for the whole world to admire our personal choice in armed protection. Otherwise the "ice might be too thin."

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mpearce wrote:

(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

(c) A sports arena or stadium.

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under Michigan liquor control code, ..., where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the business...

(e)Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that propery or facility.

(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

(g) A hospital.

(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college or university.

(3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

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The key here is concealed. And then we have to look to the MCL that deals with PFZ's for those that do not have a CPL to get the rest of the story. See subsection 2

750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor;
penalty.
Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the fol-
lowing:
(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of
1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that
firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is wi
rmission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 d
fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
History: Add. 1990, Act 321, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991;—Am. 1992, Act 218, Imd. Eff. Oct. 13, 1992;—Am. 1994, Act 158, Eff. Aug. 15, 1994.


Edited to add: I thought you were asking a question...

Anyway I agree if you are going to OC in a PFZ do so proudly with no way for the gun to become covered!!

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http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/36728.html

Here's a handy reference chart created by the wonderful people on this website!

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EM87 wrote:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/36728.html

Here's a handy reference chart created by the wonderful people on this website!

Click to expand...

EM87, the chart is a good starting point. However, everyone should be aware that a district court judge discussed that CC w/ CPL on school property or premises. While 28.425o(1)(a) allows a parent to carry concealed while driving off or picking up their child who attends the school as long as the firearm is a vehicle and subsection (3) exempts the parking areas of the premises listed in subsection (1), the judge seemed inclined to find aperson, who is bringing their child to merely play on the playground equipment and with the intent to carry openly off the parking area, to be in violation of this subsection as the firearm is concealed in the vehicle and their child did not attend the school and was not being dropped off or picked up. One word of caution is that the case did not really deal with that issue. So imlo, this may be a gray area still.

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What I would hope to do is share my legal opinions (as an attorney) with those who have looked at the wonderful chart EM87 referenced and still have questions about the where and hows of this particular issue.

A fellow 2A supporter most likely viewed this chart and was found by a court to have slipped up from his thread on this site. I would like to provide a means and place for those who want to be clear to ask general questions to all and have someonelicense to practice law in this wonderful state tobe able to offer some legal opinions, resources, and clarifications.

I would hate to see another 2A supporter in trouble like the first. Please let's limit the discussion to the topic at hand. I have narrowed down the list to those that are a bit more tricky. So forget about the crystal clear ones.

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This thread needed to be written. Thanks. Good to have you here mpearce

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There is no gray area that I can see. There is NO CC allowed on school property, except for the clause of dropping off/picking up a student; and that exception is only called into because in Mich... inside a vehicle is considered concealed. Even during this time of dropping off/picking up, you are not supposed to exit the vehicle onto school property. If you must exit the vehicle, you are required to remove your gun before doing so. Other than that, you can only OC w/CPL while on school property. So in the above circumstance, if you have a CPL and you must exit the vehicle you must OC to be in compliance with the PFZ law.

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WARCHILD wrote:

There is no gray area that I can see. There is NO CC allowed on school property, except for the clause of dropping off/picking up a student; and that exception is only called into because in Mich... inside a vehicle is considered concealed. Even during this time of dropping off/picking up, you are not supposed to exit the vehicle onto school property. If you must exit the vehicle, you are required to remove your gun before doing so. Other than that, you can only OC w/CPL while on school property. So in the above circumstance, if you have a CPL and you must exit the vehicle you must OC to be in compliance with the PFZ law.

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I disagree based on the recent court cases I mentioned earlier. The judge stated that(I don't recall his exact words) driving onto the school property to allow your child to play and your child does not attend the school would be a violation. This was only in response to discussion during the hearing and not really addressed by the purpose of the hearing.

So, the defendant believed that he could drive onto the parking lot, holster his firearm in an open carry position, and allow his child to play. The judge stated that the minute the firearm was in the car, it was concealed and therefore, a violation.

The judge also said this statute was a technical one. So, imo this judge would interpret the statute as written. Please note that there was not much legal discussion on subsection (3) as the judge had rendered his finding of responsible of concealed carry on school and/or church property.

The other thing is the statute says that one may concealed carry with permission of hte presiding official of the religious facility or premises, but it does not specify if the permission is to obtained prior to entry or after. That is another gray area.

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mpearce wrote:

What I would hope to do is share my legal opinions (as an attorney) with those who have looked at the wonderful chart EM87 referenced and still have questions about the where and hows of this particular issue.

A fellow 2A supporter most likely viewed this chart and was found by a court to have slipped up from his thread on this site. I would like to provide a means and place for those who want to be clear to ask general questions to all and have someonelicense to practice law in this wonderful state tobe able to offer some legal opinions, resources, and clarifications.

I would hate to see another 2A supporter in trouble like the first. Please let's limit the discussion to the topic at hand. I have narrowed down the list to those that are a bit more tricky. So forget about the crystal clear ones.

Click to expand...

This person slipped up before the chart was written. We are all responsible for our own actions and must answer to themselves. This site is no more responsiblefor someone violating a firearmlaw than McDonalds is to my obesity.

If the judge relied on the old law that states the only time you can carry concealed at a school is a parent dropping off/up kids is just showing her ignorance of the statute or is clearly promoting her anti-gun agenda.

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WARCHILD wrote:

There is no gray area that I can see. There is NO CC allowed on school property, except for the clause of dropping off/picking up a student; and that exception is only called into because in Mich... inside a vehicle is considered concealed. Even during this time of dropping off/picking up, you are not supposed to exit the vehicle onto school property. If you must exit the vehicle, you are required to remove your gun before doing so. Other than that, you can only OC w/CPL while on school property. So in the above circumstance, if you have a CPL and you must exit the vehicle you must OC to be in compliance with the PFZ law.

Click to expand...

I disagree also, parking lots are exempt to all CPL holders.

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I stand corrected, I forgot about the parking lot not considered "premises" exemption.

I hate it when my keyboard is wrong.:uhoh:

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Venator wrote:

This person slipped up before the chart was written. We are all responsible for our own actions and must answer to themselves. This site is no more responsiblefor someone violating a firearmlaw than McDonalds is to my obesity.

If the judge relied on the old law that states the only time you can carry concealed at a school is a parent dropping off/up kids is just showing her ignorance of the statute or is clearly promoting her anti-gun agenda.

Click to expand...

Venator, in no way am I saying that this site or any other site is a shield for the open carrier or the concealed carrier. I am trying to provide a service to those who may not be clear on the law as I have seen several threads questioning this very issue. This should be but one resource to everyone, with the utmost resource being common sense and our individual brains. If one slips up or makes an innocent mistake, then he or she should accept the consequences that are sure to follow.

The judge in this particular case was referring to MCL 28.425o(1)(a) as it is currently written. The judge did not discuss subsection (3) as the issues in the case revolved around cc in pfz and not oc in pfz. The judge's statements came after his decision that the defendant was cc in pfz, so subsection (3) became irrelevant as testimony revealed the defendant entered with playground with the firearm concealed, according to prosecution witness. The judge's decision is not binding, but something to discuss amongst ourselves and decide for yourself on.

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defendant entered with playground with the firearm concealed

Hence he was in violation; To wit he was charged and convicted. I don't mean to disagree, but two separate issues are being argued as one; which is clearly not the case. That is the basis of my contention.

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mpearce wrote:

(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

(c) A sports arena or stadium.

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under Michigan liquor control code, ..., where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the business...

(e)Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that propery or facility.

(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

(g) A hospital.

(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college or university.

(3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

Click to expand...

Are parking lots exempt as not being "premises" or, in the case of schools, does the added stipulation of "dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school" apply?

Which one is it?

Or does a judge get to arbitrarily decide which one to go by?

I admit to being a trifle confused at this point.:uhoh:

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Doesn't apply..... his whole situation has nothing to do with the drop off exemption.
He was charged for CC while walking on school property.... per testimony...period.

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WARCHILD wrote:

Doesn't apply..... his whole situation has nothing to do with the drop off exemption.
He was charged for CC while walking on school property.... per testimony...period.

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Thank you. I understand that now.

But my question remains....

Are parking lots truly exempt or does the dropping off/picking up a student extra stipulation apply?

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Yes, as I was corrected by Brian. Parking lots are not considered premises. Therefore are exempted.


ETA: Given the info that's been posted, I would have to say the judge did interpret the law correctly per facts and testimony.

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What about loaded magazines? Ive never seen a cite either way. Is there one, and if so, is there a distinction made between being on foot, or in a vehicle. I have heard conflicting convincing arguments, but I still dont know where I stand.

If traveling, I know that if the gun is cased, in the trunk etc., the ammo is supposed to be seperate, but thats all I have seen proof of.

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Very simple:

CPL: Loaded anywhere in the car or on your person

W/O CPL: Unloaded, stored in a case, in the trunk or in the passenger compartment; in an area inaccessible to the occupant.
There is no stipulation the ammo has to be separately stored from the gun.