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Thread: OC in the park and contacted by SPD

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    Regular Member bennie1986's Avatar
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    I went to the same park with my wife and son today that I was at when I got the ticket for carrying.When wegot there the cop wasalready at the park but she didn't notice me at all. I was carrying myM&P40 in a tac leg holster. After we were there probably 15min someone approached the officer andlether know thatI had a gun.The officer approached me in a very calm and respecting manner and asked ifI had a gun or a tazer. She explained that she was approached by someone that was concerned and just wanted to make contact.She also saidthat sheknew thatI wasn't doing anything illegal.She asked if I had a CPL but didn't ask to see it or my ID. She told me that because I have a CPL that means that I had to CC. I told her that I have researched that because another officer said the same thing and its not true. She said oh okay and we wished each other a good day. The best part was everyone watching got to see her walk away and me go about my business!

    Kudos to the SPD for a change! They need more officers like her!

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Exellent! Still sounds like Spokane needs a training bulletin.
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    bennie1986 wrote:
    . She told me that because I have a CPL that means that I had to CC.
    I've never understood this line of thought. Just because I have a license to drive a car doesn't mean I can't ride a bike, or take a bus, or walk. Just because I have a license to hunt, doesn't mean I'm not allowed to buy meat at the store. Why, then, would having a license to concealed carry mean I'm no longer allowed to open carry?
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Good analogies, Tawnos.

    I don't follow the thought process that leads a LEO to say stupid things like that. Ridiculous! Total lack of common sense.

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    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    Possibly a transplant from somewhere this might be true? Someone who hasn't bothered learning local laws to do their job correctly....

    Just a guess...
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    j2l3 wrote:
    Possibly a transplant from somewhere this might be true? Someone who hasn't bothered learning local laws to do their job correctly....

    Just a guess...
    Even a transp-lant from a different state has to attend and complete the Wa Academy within a certain time frame.

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    Trigger Dr wrote:
    j2l3 wrote:
    Possibly a transplant from somewhere this might be true?* Someone who hasn't bothered learning local laws to do their job correctly....

    Just a guess...
    Even a transp-lant from a different state has to attend and complete the Wa Academy within a certain time frame.
    Not always. They are allowing laterals from other states to test out of the academy, which I personally am against.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Deputy Chief Flo Simon here in Bellingham tried to tell me the same thing. But she was a little more hostile and forceful about it. Looks like you are training the SPD one step at a time.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
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    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    Trigger Dr wrote:
    j2l3 wrote:
    Possibly a transplant from somewhere this might be true? Someone who hasn't bothered learning local laws to do their job correctly....

    Just a guess...
    Even a transp-lant from a different state has to attend and complete the Wa Academy within a certain time frame.
    Doesn't mean they lose their prejudice from where they were before, nor does it mean they have learned the locval laws they are supposed to enforce.

    I've seen many transplants who try to enforce what they knew from somewhere else, even when it doesn't apply here.
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    bennie1986 wrote:
    ...She told me that because I have a CPL that means that I had to CC...
    That's right, if you have a CPL, you must carry concealed. Once you get your CPL, you must carry a gun, on your person, 24/7/365 from then on or you can be fined, arrested, or hanged.
    IBTL

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Oops.

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    I've also been told I must conceal since I have a CPL, I wonderwhat the people who think this believe the constitution to be?

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    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    ShooterMcGavin said:

    ''That's right, if you have a CPL, you must carry concealed. Once you get your CPL, you must carry a gun, on your person, 24/7/365 from then on or you can be fined, arrested, or hanged. ''

    What a great response! So much better than ''show me where it says that'' because she has already proven that either she can't read or that she prefers others to tell her what something says. A wonderful reductio ad absurdum. It will now be in my kit bag of snappy retorts to dippy statements.

    MD

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    Machoduck wrote:
    ShooterMcGavin said:

    ''That's right, if you have a CPL, you must carry concealed. Once you get your CPL, you must carry a gun, on your person, 24/7/365 from then on or you can be fined, arrested, or hanged. ''
    Well, why do you think my handle on here is what it is....?!?

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    G20-IWB24/7 wrote:
    Machoduck wrote:
    ShooterMcGavin said:

    ''That's right, if you have a CPL, you must carry concealed. Once you get your CPL, you must carry a gun, on your person, 24/7/365 from then on or you can be fined, arrested, or hanged. ''
    Well, why do you think my handle on here is what it is....?!?
    Clearly, it is because you went and got a CPL, and are now required by law to carry (concealed) at all times. If you hadn't done that, you would still have your right to OC or to not carry at all.
    IBTL

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    Well, it is a step in the right direction, a baby step, but a step anyhow.

    IMO, the way it should have happened was the SPD officer should have informed the "concerned citizen" that what you were doing was legal and from her observation you were doing nothing that would warrant her approaching you. Of course, that would be expecting a whole lot more knowledge of the law than what a lot of the enforcers of the law seem to have on the subject of OC.

    The other park goers saw her approach you, chat with you, and who knows how many assumed from that point on you were also police from the nature of your encounter. Of course, this is just conjecture on my part, but is well within the realm of possibilty.

    bob

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Tawnos wrote:
    bennie1986 wrote:
    . She told me that because I have a CPL that means that I had to CC.
    I've never understood this line of thought. Just because I have a license to drive a car doesn't mean I can't ride a bike, or take a bus, or walk. Just because I have a license to hunt, doesn't mean I'm not allowed to buy meat at the store. Why, then, would having a license to concealed carry mean I'm no longer allowed to open carry?
    With you on this. The concept of "Concealed Means Concealed" seems to be passed around by some older "Instructors". Not just with various PD's but also those who are running their own "schools" and offer courses at various ranges.

    Rember the post here in the last year or so where someone from Tukwila read the passage printed on the back of the CPL and tried to convince everyone that THAT meant you had to carry concealed if you had a CPL? Merely states that when carrying concealed you must present the CPL when asked by one with authority to ask.
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    Most officers know better,for themostpart John Q Public does not know the law. Officers lie to the public all the time in order to get cooperation. Notice how fast she backed off when Bennie knew better. LEOs have 2 reactions either they get hostile for percieved lack of respect or they just back off.
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    Regular Member Lammo's Avatar
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    bennie1986 wrote:
    I went to the same park with my wife and son today that I was at when I got the ticket for carrying.When wegot there the cop wasalready at the park but she didn't notice me at all. I was carrying myM&P40 in a tac leg holster. After we were there probably 15min someone approached the officer andlether know thatI had a gun.The officer approached me in a very calm and respecting manner and asked ifI had a gun or a tazer. She explained that she was approached by someone that was concerned and just wanted to make contact.She also saidthat sheknew thatI wasn't doing anything illegal.She asked if I had a CPL but didn't ask to see it or my ID. She told me that because I have a CPL that means that I had to CC. I told her that I have researched that because another officer said the same thing and its not true. She said oh okay and we wished each other a good day. The best part was everyone watching got to see her walk away and me go about my business!

    Kudos to the SPD for a change! They need more officers like her!
    Devil's advocate for half a second. Maybe this officer asked if you had a CPL to eliminate the possibility that you were unlawfully in possession of the pistol. Logically, if you have a CPL you are not a convicted felon and, therefore, you can CC or OC all you want. If I were a cop that might be how I would casually establish that you were not a prohibited person. Of course, I wouldn't follow up by telling you that you are required to CC if you have a CPL so that's probably not what this particular officer was up to.

    PS - - which park?

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    bennie1986 wrote:
    SNIP She explained that she was approached by someone that was concerned and just wanted to make contact.She also saidthat sheknew thatI wasn't doing anything illegal.She asked if I had a CPL but didn't ask to see it or my ID. She told me that because I have a CPL that means that I had to CC.

    If she said those things in that exact sequence, she lied. Poorly.

    First she said you were doing nothing illegal. Then she said you were illegally carrying by not concealing as required by a CPL? You were not illegal, but you were illegal. Give me a break, copper.

    Also, no cop investigates "just to make contact". Another deception. Designed to lull you. If she had found something suspicious, you can bet the farm she would have been calling back up. What was she gonna do? Hit on you if your wife hadn't been there? This was not a social contact.

    Well done on handling your end of it to a successful conclusion--meaning you didn't get detained or arrested.

    As always, I recommend refusing consent to the encounter itself. Politely:

    "Officer, no offense. I know you're probably just doing your job. But, I do not consent to this encounter."

    This immediately removes it from the realm of a consensual encounter and leaves no room for mistake or later discussion by the police that you consented to talk to them.

    Others recommend, and I support,immediately asking, "Am I being detained?" And if not, walking away. The only reason Isuggest differently is because police can go around in circles dodging the question, and nobody ever really establishes that you do not consent to having an encounter with the police. You hung around asking questions, right? A small detail that may not mean much; but I like keeping my rights clear. And boxing in the cops. By refusing consent to the encounter, they had better have RAS to continue it/detain me.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    there was a court rulling,,somewhere,,i read it,,, and it said that it was the resposability of the citizen to stop a consentual encounter by just walking away!!

    i the cop really thinks they are detaining you,, they will not let you leave,,one way or another you will know the score!!
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    1245A Defender wrote:
    there was a court rulling,,somewhere,,i read it,,, and it said that it was the resposability of the citizen to stop a consentual encounter by just walking away!!

    i the cop really thinks they are detaining you,, they will not let you leave,,one way or another you will know the score!!
    I remember discussing that. Was that in Washington state?

    I'll bet it doesn't pass constitutional muster if it is written as you said. Verbally refusing consent should do it; no need to risk being manhandled because some court didn't think about an overt verbal refusal.

    Better sort this one out. It might make a little bit difference in tactics. Anybody remember that case? Can you post a quote and link?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Lammo wrote:
    bennie1986 wrote:
    I went to the same park with my wife and son today that I was at when I got the ticket for carrying.When wegot there the cop wasalready at the park but she didn't notice me at all. I was carrying myM&P40 in a tac leg holster. After we were there probably 15min someone approached the officer andlether know thatI had a gun.The officer approached me in a very calm and respecting manner and asked ifI had a gun or a tazer. She explained that she was approached by someone that was concerned and just wanted to make contact.She also saidthat sheknew thatI wasn't doing anything illegal.She asked if I had a CPL but didn't ask to see it or my ID. She told me that because I have a CPL that means that I had to CC. I told her that I have researched that because another officer said the same thing and its not true. She said oh okay and we wished each other a good day. The best part was everyone watching got to see her walk away and me go about my business!

    Kudos to the SPD for a change! They need more officers like her!
    Devil's advocate for half a second. Maybe this officer asked if you had a CPL to eliminate the possibility that you were unlawfully in possession of the pistol. Logically, if you have a CPL you are not a convicted felon and, therefore, you can CC or OC all you want. If I were a cop that might be how I would casually establish that you were not a prohibited person. Of course, I wouldn't follow up by telling you that you are required to CC if you have a CPL so that's probably not what this particular officer was up to.

    PS - - which park?
    To play the devil's devil's advocate. She can ask whatever she wants she doesn't need to be told unless she can state PC/RAS. Right?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  24. #24
    Regular Member Lammo's Avatar
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Lammo wrote:
    bennie1986 wrote:
    SNIP
    Devil's advocate for half a second. Maybe this officer asked if you had a CPL to eliminate the possibility that you were unlawfully in possession of the pistol. Logically, if you have a CPL you are not a convicted felon and, therefore, you can CC or OC all you want. If I were a cop that might be how I would casually establish that you were not a prohibited person. Of course, I wouldn't follow up by telling you that you are required to CC if you have a CPL so that's probably not what this particular officer was up to.

    PS - - which park?
    To play the devil's devil's advocate. She can ask whatever she wants she doesn't need to be told unless she can state PC/RAS. Right?
    Sure, but unless the encounter goes horribly wrong that would only matter if you're doing something unlawful. That is, if the contact turns into a seizure that leads to a search revealing contraband that leads to an arrest then you'll get the contraband suppressed and the charges dismissed if there was no probable cause for the seizure. If you're just hanging out in a park minding your own business you would be within your rights to refuse to give any information. Unless you are driving there is no general authority for law enforcement to demand information or obligation to provide it.
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    gogodawgs wrote:
    Exellent! Still sounds like Spokane needs a training bulletin.
    Spokane PD and Spokane County have both issued open carry training bulletins.

    Can't force the officers to read it though

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