Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 26

Thread: Promotion at work and ...

  1. #1
    Regular Member gis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    264

    Post imported post

    a number of the company functions including corporate security now report to me. I have been making a lot of noise aboutour deficiencies, so they handedthem to me to fix. I do carry at work, as my boss and his boss (president/CEO) are both pretty pro-gun having come from the military and LE backgrounds. It's probably better to say that they don't pay too much attention to the gun issues as long as everything is legal. I am pretty free to make whatever changes I want, and will asrelated to our emergency preparedness and response, but I am debating how explicit I should be regarding an employee's right to carry. I am leaning toward staying silent on this subject (as is the current policy) and letting people do whatever they want as long as they do so legally. While I would love to issue a policy protecting the right to carry and even go a step further and utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan, I am worried that doing so will cause a severe backlash fromPersonnel and Corporate Counsel departments where we have more than our fair share of liberals. Any ideas?

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    418

    Post imported post

    I think "don't ask, don't tell" is a pretty good policy...

    If you create a policy that acknowledges the right to carry, the libs will push for a counter policy.

  3. #3
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580

    Post imported post

    gis wrote:
    a number of the company functions including corporate security now report to me. I have been making a lot of noise aboutour deficiencies, so they handedthem to me to fix. I do carry at work, as my boss and his boss (president/CEO) are both pretty pro-gun having come from the military and LE backgrounds. It's probably better to say that they don't pay too much attention to the gun issues as long as everything is legal. I am pretty free to make whatever changes I want, and will asrelated to our emergency preparedness and response, but I am debating how explicit I should be regarding an employee's right to carry. I am leaning toward staying silent on this subject (as is the current policy) and letting people do whatever they want as long as they do so legally. While I would love to issue a policy protecting the right to carry and even go a step further and utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan, I am worried that doing so will cause a severe backlash fromPersonnel and Corporate Counsel departments where we have more than our fair share of liberals. Any ideas?
    I agree with don't ask, don't tell. I wholeheartedly disagree with " utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan,"

    A person does not need a CHP to conceal at his own place of business.

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
    1. Any person while in his own place of business;


  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Louisa County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    821

    Post imported post

    Armed wrote:
    I think "don't ask, don't tell" is a pretty good policy...

    If you create a policy that acknowledges the right to carry, the libs will push for a counter policy.
    Agreed.

    Don't start a battle that the lawyers will be called in to end. We know which side they will stand on.

    eta: I wish I worked where you do. We have a "Not on our premises" policy.

  5. #5
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Newport News, VA, ,
    Posts
    1,586

    Post imported post

    Armed wrote:
    I think "don't ask, don't tell" is a pretty good policy...

    If you create a policy that acknowledges the right to carry, the libs will push for a counter policy.
    This sounds like the best approach. But you may have to deal with individuals who might choose to OC. Without a stated policy, it may be awkward to condone CC, but not OC.

    Also, what will you tell a new hire? Some might ask, but most probably won't, and if CC is the accepted mode, they won't even know that it's being done.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  6. #6
    Regular Member gis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    264

    Post imported post

    peter nap wrote:
    gis wrote:
    a number of the company functions including corporate security now report to me. I have been making a lot of noise aboutour deficiencies, so they handedthem to me to fix. I do carry at work, as my boss and his boss (president/CEO) are both pretty pro-gun having come from the military and LE backgrounds. It's probably better to say that they don't pay too much attention to the gun issues as long as everything is legal. I am pretty free to make whatever changes I want, and will asrelated to our emergency preparedness and response, but I am debating how explicit I should be regarding an employee's right to carry. I am leaning toward staying silent on this subject (as is the current policy) and letting people do whatever they want as long as they do so legally. While I would love to issue a policy protecting the right to carry and even go a step further and utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan, I am worried that doing so will cause a severe backlash fromPersonnel and Corporate Counsel departments where we have more than our fair share of liberals. Any ideas?
    I agree with don't ask, don't tell. I wholeheartedly disagree with " utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan,"

    A person does not need a CHP to conceal at his own place of business.

    PN, it's not meant to be a political statement. I am very big on training, and anyone that I makea part of MY response plan and accept liability forbetter be trained to my satisfaction. It is not about the county issuing one a piece of paper.

    I agree with you about not needing a CHP to conceal in one's own place of business. However, wouldn't an employee need permission from the "boss" (whoever that may be) without a CHP? In a corporate environment I don't want to become an authority granting an amployee a right to carry. That's bad for many reasons. I would rather they had a CCW and carried legally under the "don't ask don't tell" rule.


  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580

    Post imported post

    gis wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    gis wrote:
    a number of the company functions including corporate security now report to me. I have been making a lot of noise aboutour deficiencies, so they handedthem to me to fix. I do carry at work, as my boss and his boss (president/CEO) are both pretty pro-gun having come from the military and LE backgrounds. It's probably better to say that they don't pay too much attention to the gun issues as long as everything is legal. I am pretty free to make whatever changes I want, and will asrelated to our emergency preparedness and response, but I am debating how explicit I should be regarding an employee's right to carry. I am leaning toward staying silent on this subject (as is the current policy) and letting people do whatever they want as long as they do so legally. While I would love to issue a policy protecting the right to carry and even go a step further and utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan, I am worried that doing so will cause a severe backlash fromPersonnel and Corporate Counsel departments where we have more than our fair share of liberals. Any ideas?
    I agree with don't ask, don't tell. I wholeheartedly disagree with " utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan,"

    A person does not need a CHP to conceal at his own place of business.

    PN, it's not meant to be a political statement. I am very big on training, and anyone that I makea part of MY response plan and accept liability forbetter be trained to my satisfaction. It is not about the county issuing one a piece of paper.

    I agree with you about not needing a CHP to conceal in one's own place of business. However, wouldn't an employee need permission from the "boss" (whoever that may be) without a CHP? In a corporate environment I don't want to become an authority granting an amployee a right to carry. That's bad for many reasons. I would rather they had a CCW and carried legally under the "don't ask don't tell" rule.
    It wasn't meant as political. There are plenty of other opportunities for that. It was meant as factual. No, permission isn't needed unless policy says otherwise.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, SC
    Posts
    970

    Post imported post

    peter nap wrote:
    [/b][/i]A person does not need a CHP to conceal at his own place of business.

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
    1. Any person while in his own place of business;
    Does this mean I could carry concealed at the golf course where I work?

  9. #9
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Newport News, VA, ,
    Posts
    1,586

    Post imported post

    gis wrote:
    PN, it's not meant to be a political statement. I am very big on training, and anyone that I makea part of MY response plan and accept liability forbetter be trained to my satisfaction. It is not about the county issuing one a piece of paper.

    I agree with you about not needing a CHP to conceal in one's own place of business. However, wouldn't an employee need permission from the "boss" (whoever that may be) without a CHP? In a corporate environment I don't want to become an authority granting an amployee a right to carry. That's bad for many reasons. I would rather they had a CCW and carried legally under the "don't ask don't tell" rule.
    Without knowing any of the details of your "response plan", could any of these folks that you include in it be considered "armed security" personnel? If so, they might need certification. Not saying who might be doing the "considering". Could be anybody.

    Employees might be considered as being "in their place of employment" v a business owner being "in his/her place of business".
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  10. #10
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Midlothian, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    596

    Post imported post

    hunter45 wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    A person does not need a CHP to conceal at his own place of business.

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
    1. Any person while in his own place of business;
    Does this mean I could carry concealed at the golf course where I work?
    If you own the golf course, you are fine.

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580

    Post imported post

    2a4all wrote:
    gis wrote:
    Without knowing any of the details of your "response plan", could any of these folks that you include in it be considered "armed security" personnel? If so, they might need certification. Not saying who might be doing the "considering". Could be anybody.

    Employees might be considered as being "in their place of employment" v a business owner being "in his/her place of business".
    I'm not going to do the wild eyed "CITE,CITE" like some. Look at security definations and you'll see the difference.

    As far as (One's place of business) that's been decided also.

  12. #12
    Regular Member gis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    264

    Post imported post

    2a4all wrote:
    Armed wrote:
    I think "don't ask, don't tell" is a pretty good policy...

    If you create a policy that acknowledges the right to carry, the libs will push for a counter policy.
    This sounds like the best approach. But you may have to deal with individuals who might choose to OC. Without a stated policy, it may be awkward to condone CC, but not OC.

    Also, what will you tell a new hire? Some might ask, but most probably won't, and if CC is the accepted mode, they won't even know that it's being done.
    We are in a very congested part of NOVA, and the only person I know who has ever open carried at work is me. All others I know about have a CHP and conceal. And even I usually conceal a work. I have no problem with CC as long as it's legal. Peter nap seems to suggest that it would be legal without CHP and without company's permission. I don't agree. I think that an employee without a CHP would need permission if there was no company policy condoning CC. Since "don't ask don't tell" seems to be the consensus, I can't really see having a process for authorizing CC without a permit.

    Regarding new employees, part of the interview process, if they get far enough along, is a nice lunch, where of course I open carry. I hadinterviewees react differently (or not at all) to my sidearm. They also get a bigpacket of company policies with an offer letter that they are asked to review and acknowledge as a condition of the offer. The ones interested in carrying will be able to look for weapons policy and find none (i.e. permission to carry) before taking the job. That's exactly what I did when I accepted.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, SC
    Posts
    970

    Post imported post

    VCDL President wrote:
    hunter45 wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    A person does not need a CHP to conceal at his own place of business.

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
    1. Any person while in his own place of business;
    Does this mean I could carry concealed at the golf course where I work?
    If you own the golf course, you are fine.
    The country club is owned by the members, and I am also a member as well as an employee. So I don't know, maybe I do technically count as an owner?

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682

    Post imported post

    hunter45 wrote:
    VCDL President wrote:
    hunter45 wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    A person does not need a CHP to conceal at his own place of business.

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
    1. Any person while in his own place of business;
    Does this mean I could carry concealed at the golf course where I work?
    If you own the golf course, you are fine.
    The country club is owned by the members, and I am also a member as well as an employee. So I don't know, maybe I do technically count as an owner?
    Did the members form a corporation (word used loosely here) or does each member hold an equal share of the entity as a whole? If not the second (which would be very exceptional as it would require all members to vote on everything) then you arean employee of the corporation (again, the word is used loosely) as well as a shareholder/member. Since you are not the head of the corporation you are not at your place of business when working as an employee. You would only need the owner's permission if there was a notice that others - non-employees - were prohibited from carrying -- unless you work in the part of the country club where they serve alcohol for on-premises consumption (see concealed carry permit laws for need for permission of owner).

    Why didn't you ask about how far you have to be from a school? It's so much easier to answer that -- NOT!

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  15. #15
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Northern Piedmont of Virginia
    Posts
    2,373

    Post imported post

    If I were in your position, I'd want to have a list of the people, possibly with photographs, who have indicated a desire to be armed while at work. And I'd want such people to be organized and receive special training for emergency situations. But a major reason for the facebook is that the security guys need to be able to tell the cops who's supposed to have a gun, so they'll be able to distinguish them from the intruders who are not. So my policy would be to encourage lawful carrying of firearms, but under certain conditions. Anyone who wants to carry ought to notify you that they're doing so, and you need to be satisfied with their level of training. Anyone can carry openly with no training at all, and you can get a CHP with a one-hour online video course. I'd want to be sure that guns will be treated properly. So I would establish a "company carry permit", and tell people who do not have proper training, or who want to pull their guns out and try out the laser grip on the co-workers that they're not allowed until they complete a proper training course. You could arrange to offer one as an employee benefit, btw.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  16. #16
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,848

    Post imported post

    user wrote:
    So I would establish a "company carry permit", and tell people who do not have proper training...
    Yeah!! and then make them go register their guns.... but only revolvers, not any of those new fangled semi-autos... and only in original Colt Blue.. not of those new fancy colors and make them pay some sort of fee to carry.. kinda like a tax.. yeah.. thad be cool... and make them buy their ammo from the company so they load their gun with the correct appropriate load (feel free to charge what you want for ammo since they HAVE to buy it from you or they can't carry).. just for fun so they don't get each others guns mixed up.. make sure everyone is photographed (you already said that) AND fingerprinted! OMG, this is gonna be great!
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  17. #17
    Regular Member gis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    264

    Post imported post

    ed wrote:
    user wrote:
    So I would establish a "company carry permit", and tell people who do not have proper training...
    Yeah!! and then make them go register their guns.... but only revolvers, not any of those new fangled semi-autos... and only in original Colt Blue.. not of those new fancy colors and make them pay some sort of fee to carry.. kinda like a tax.. yeah.. thad be cool... and make them buy their ammo from the company so they load their gun with the correct appropriate load (feel free to charge what you want for ammo since they HAVE to buy it from you or they can't carry).. just for fun so they don't get each others guns mixed up.. make sure everyone is photographed (you already said that) AND fingerprinted! OMG, this is gonna be great!
    If I had my choice, I would run it like a police department (SOPs, in-service training, qualificatons, standard issue equipment, etc.). Been there, done that. However, I am working under pretty weird constraints, which are the reasons for our deficiencies in the first place. On one hand I have NY libs running Pesonnel. On the other hand, I have ourGeneral Counsel (he and the CEO are old army buddies) who believes thatabsence of apolicy equates toabsence ofliability. For clearly different reasons, both would rather "not talk about it".

    What I am leaning towards is setting up appropriate incident command with a small handpicked group of people with the right training and equipment. They will be identifiable in an emergency via yellow vests, etc. We will coordinate plans with the local LE. However, everyone else will be on their own regarding carrying, with all the benefits andproblems of the "don't ask don't tell" scenario.






  18. #18
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Northern Piedmont of Virginia
    Posts
    2,373

    Post imported post

    Well, I can see the point of not having a written policy - having litigated such issues, myself. So you know what you want to do, why not just do it? You might want to establish some kind of training for the just plain folks, too, though, like, knowing when to get under the desk?
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  19. #19
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671

    Post imported post

    user wrote:
    If I were in your position, I'd want to have a list of the people, possibly with photographs, who have indicated a desire to be armed while at work. And I'd want such people to be organized and receive special training for emergency situations. But a major reason for the facebook is that the security guys need to be able to tell the cops who's supposed to have a gun, so they'll be able to distinguish them from the intruders who are not. So my policy would be to encourage lawful carrying of firearms, but under certain conditions. Anyone who wants to carry ought to notify you that they're doing so, and you need to be satisfied with their level of training. Anyone can carry openly with no training at all, and you can get a CHP with a one-hour online video course. I'd want to be sure that guns will be treated properly. So I would establish a "company carry permit", and tell people who do not have proper training, or who want to pull their guns out and try out the laser grip on the co-workers that they're not allowed until they complete a proper training course. You could arrange to offer one as an employee benefit, btw.

    +1 I think that these are some valid ideas.

    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,510

    Post imported post

    gis, when my wife ventured briefly into national retail (she's now safely back to self-employed, with all its risks and rewards), I read her employee handbook very carefully for weapons restrictions. This being a well-known national retailer (a pet specialty chain), I figured they would have a strict "no weapons" policy.

    Nope. My paraphrase from memory (it's been a few years): "Employees may not possess any illegal weapons on Company property, including parking lots."

    And that was that. No distinctions between guns and other weapons, or on/off duty. Their butts were covered for liability by forbidding illegal weapons, but legal employees could carry, even on the clock.

    I'd suggest similar wording in your employee handbook or standards of conduct.

    Edit: I think it actually said "employees may not illegally possess weapons", which is probably more clear.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
    Posts
    3,806

    Post imported post

    gis wrote:
    While I would love to issue a policy protecting the right to carry and even go a step further and utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan....
    1. Any legal backlash if something goes down?

    2. Would the be considered security guards by the city/state in that case?
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

  22. #22
    Regular Member gis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    264

    Post imported post

    AbNo wrote:
    gis wrote:
    While I would love to issue a policy protecting the right to carry and even go a step further and utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan....
    1. Any legal backlash if something goes down?

    2. Would the be considered security guards by the city/state in that case?
    1. Legal backlash from whom? If something goes down, there will be law suits no matter what happens. If the company does nothing to pretect employees, someone who got hurt could sue the company for failing to protect them. I would definitely do that, as a matter of principle,if I was prohibited from carrying. I would hope that the company accepts civil liability for lawful actions of its employees. The law suits would probably be against the company anyway, as they have deeper pockets than individual employees.

    2.I do not believe so. They are not bodyguards (not protecting named individuals) and are not guarding property/building. They would simply be acting in their own defense andcoincidently in defense of others who happento be in the vicinity of the threat occuring on restricted access private property where they are employees. To me this is the same as if you and your brotherworked fora 7/11 and planned/trained for how you would respond in a coordinated fashion if, for example, and armed robbery takes place. I would argue that training and planning makes such a response safer and more effective, and therefore more defensible from a liability standpoint.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Alexandria, Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    3,765

    Post imported post

    I picked up a book a couple of years ago that basically is a carry policy for a business. Unfortunately, I can't locate it right now (if you saw my bookshelves.....). Will try to locate and post info. Point is, exemplar policy exists.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

  24. #24
    Regular Member gis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    264

    Post imported post

    Tess wrote:
    I picked up a book a couple of years ago that basically is a carry policy for a business. Unfortunately, I can't locate it right now (if you saw my bookshelves.....). Will try to locate and post info. Point is, exemplar policy exists.
    Thanks. I would be curious to read the wording and see the source. I know of at least one major company with a carry policy. A friend works there. It's a private security and armored car company in Texas. Any office employee can carry provided they pass the same qualification course of fire as the security guards, which unfortunately isn't much. They are also limited to the list of carry guns thatguards carry. Most people that carry there are CHPs or former LEOsqualified under 218.

  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Alexandria, Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    3,765

    Post imported post

    Found it.

    "Guns in the Workplace"
    "A Manual for Private Sector Employers and Employees"
    (C) 2006
    by Chuck Klein, edited by William M. Gustavson, Esq.
    Merril Press
    ISBN 13: 987-0-036783-49-9
    ISBN 10: 0-936783-49-4
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •