Promotion at work and ...

gis · Jan 31, 2010

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a number of the company functions including corporate security now report to me. I have been making a lot of noise aboutour deficiencies, so they handedthem to me to fix. I do carry at work, as my boss and his boss (president/CEO) are both pretty pro-gun having come from the military and LE backgrounds. It's probably better to say that they don't pay too much attention to the gun issues as long as everything is legal. I am pretty free to make whatever changes I want, and will asrelated to our emergency preparedness and response, but I am debating how explicit I should be regarding an employee's right to carry. I am leaning toward staying silent on this subject (as is the current policy) and letting people do whatever they want as long as they do so legally. While I would love to issue a policy protecting the right to carry and even go a step further and utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan, I am worried that doing so will cause a severe backlash fromPersonnel and Corporate Counsel departments where we have more than our fair share of liberals. Any ideas?

Armed · Jan 31, 2010

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I think "don't ask, don't tell" is a pretty good policy...

If you create a policy that acknowledges the right to carry, the libs will push for a counter policy.

peter nap · Jan 31, 2010

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gis wrote:

a number of the company functions including corporate security now report to me. I have been making a lot of noise aboutour deficiencies, so they handedthem to me to fix. I do carry at work, as my boss and his boss (president/CEO) are both pretty pro-gun having come from the military and LE backgrounds. It's probably better to say that they don't pay too much attention to the gun issues as long as everything is legal. I am pretty free to make whatever changes I want, and will asrelated to our emergency preparedness and response, but I am debating how explicit I should be regarding an employee's right to carry. I am leaning toward staying silent on this subject (as is the current policy) and letting people do whatever they want as long as they do so legally. While I would love to issue a policy protecting the right to carry and even go a step further and utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan, I am worried that doing so will cause a severe backlash fromPersonnel and Corporate Counsel departments where we have more than our fair share of liberals. Any ideas?

I agree with don't ask, don't tell. I wholeheartedly disagree with " utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan,"

A person does not need a CHP to conceal at his own place of business.

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
1. Any person while in his own place of business;

Glock27Bill · Jan 31, 2010

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Armed wrote:

I think "don't ask, don't tell" is a pretty good policy...

If you create a policy that acknowledges the right to carry, the libs will push for a counter policy.

Agreed.

Don't start a battle that the lawyers will be called in to end. We know which side they will stand on.

eta: I wish I worked where you do. We have a "Not on our premises" policy.

2a4all · Jan 31, 2010

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Armed wrote:

I think "don't ask, don't tell" is a pretty good policy...

If you create a policy that acknowledges the right to carry, the libs will push for a counter policy.

This sounds like the best approach. But you may have to deal with individuals who might choose to OC. Without a stated policy, it may be awkward to condone CC, but not OC.

Also, what will you tell a new hire? Some might ask, but most probably won't, and if CC is the accepted mode, they won't even know that it's being done.

gis · Jan 31, 2010

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peter nap wrote:

gis wrote:

a number of the company functions including corporate security now report to me. I have been making a lot of noise aboutour deficiencies, so they handedthem to me to fix. I do carry at work, as my boss and his boss (president/CEO) are both pretty pro-gun having come from the military and LE backgrounds. It's probably better to say that they don't pay too much attention to the gun issues as long as everything is legal. I am pretty free to make whatever changes I want, and will asrelated to our emergency preparedness and response, but I am debating how explicit I should be regarding an employee's right to carry. I am leaning toward staying silent on this subject (as is the current policy) and letting people do whatever they want as long as they do so legally. While I would love to issue a policy protecting the right to carry and even go a step further and utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan, I am worried that doing so will cause a severe backlash fromPersonnel and Corporate Counsel departments where we have more than our fair share of liberals. Any ideas?

Click to expand...

I agree with don't ask, don't tell. I wholeheartedly disagree with " utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan,"

A person does not need a CHP to conceal at his own place of business.

PN, it's not meant to be a political statement. I am very big on training, and anyone that I makea part of MY response plan and accept liability forbetter be trained to my satisfaction. It is not about the county issuing one a piece of paper.

I agree with you about not needing a CHP to conceal in one's own place of business. However, wouldn't an employee need permission from the "boss" (whoever that may be) without a CHP? In a corporate environment I don't want to become an authority granting an amployee a right to carry. That's bad for many reasons. I would rather they had a CCW and carried legally under the "don't ask don't tell" rule.

peter nap · Jan 31, 2010

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gis wrote:

peter nap wrote:

gis wrote:

a number of the company functions including corporate security now report to me. I have been making a lot of noise aboutour deficiencies, so they handedthem to me to fix. I do carry at work, as my boss and his boss (president/CEO) are both pretty pro-gun having come from the military and LE backgrounds. It's probably better to say that they don't pay too much attention to the gun issues as long as everything is legal. I am pretty free to make whatever changes I want, and will asrelated to our emergency preparedness and response, but I am debating how explicit I should be regarding an employee's right to carry. I am leaning toward staying silent on this subject (as is the current policy) and letting people do whatever they want as long as they do so legally. While I would love to issue a policy protecting the right to carry and even go a step further and utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan, I am worried that doing so will cause a severe backlash fromPersonnel and Corporate Counsel departments where we have more than our fair share of liberals. Any ideas?

Click to expand...

I agree with don't ask, don't tell. I wholeheartedly disagree with " utilize our legal CCW folks in the ER plan,"

A person does not need a CHP to conceal at his own place of business.

Click to expand...

PN, it's not meant to be a political statement. I am very big on training, and anyone that I makea part of MY response plan and accept liability forbetter be trained to my satisfaction. It is not about the county issuing one a piece of paper.

I agree with you about not needing a CHP to conceal in one's own place of business. However, wouldn't an employee need permission from the "boss" (whoever that may be) without a CHP? In a corporate environment I don't want to become an authority granting an amployee a right to carry. That's bad for many reasons. I would rather they had a CCW and carried legally under the "don't ask don't tell" rule.

It wasn't meant as political. There are plenty of other opportunities for that. It was meant as factual. No, permission isn't needed unless policy says otherwise.

hunter45 · Jan 31, 2010

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peter nap wrote:

[/b][/i]A person does not need a CHP to conceal at his own place of business.

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
1. Any person while in his own place of business;

Does this mean I could carry concealed at the golf course where I work?

2a4all · Jan 31, 2010

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gis wrote:

PN, it's not meant to be a political statement. I am very big on training, and anyone that I makea part of MY response plan and accept liability forbetter be trained to my satisfaction. It is not about the county issuing one a piece of paper.

I agree with you about not needing a CHP to conceal in one's own place of business. However, wouldn't an employee need permission from the "boss" (whoever that may be) without a CHP? In a corporate environment I don't want to become an authority granting an amployee a right to carry. That's bad for many reasons. I would rather they had a CCW and carried legally under the "don't ask don't tell" rule.

Without knowing any of the details of your "response plan", could any of these folks that you include in it be considered "armed security" personnel? If so, they might need certification. Not saying who might be doing the "considering". Could be anybody.

Employees might be considered as being "in their place of employment" v a business owner being "in his/her place of business".

VCDL President · Jan 31, 2010

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hunter45 wrote:

peter nap wrote:

A person does not need a CHP to conceal at his own place of business.

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
1. Any person while in his own place of business;

Click to expand...

Does this mean I could carry concealed at the golf course where I work?

If you own the golf course, you are fine.

peter nap · Jan 31, 2010

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2a4all wrote:

gis wrote:
Without knowing any of the details of your "response plan", could any of these folks that you include in it be considered "armed security" personnel? If so, they might need certification. Not saying who might be doing the "considering". Could be anybody.

Employees might be considered as being "in their place of employment" v a business owner being "in his/her place of business".

I'm not going to do the wild eyed "CITE,CITE" like some. Look at security definations and you'll see the difference.

As far as (One's place of business) that's been decided also.

gis · Jan 31, 2010

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2a4all wrote:

Armed wrote:

I think "don't ask, don't tell" is a pretty good policy...

If you create a policy that acknowledges the right to carry, the libs will push for a counter policy.

Click to expand...

This sounds like the best approach. But you may have to deal with individuals who might choose to OC. Without a stated policy, it may be awkward to condone CC, but not OC.

Also, what will you tell a new hire? Some might ask, but most probably won't, and if CC is the accepted mode, they won't even know that it's being done.

We are in a very congested part of NOVA, and the only person I know who has ever open carried at work is me. All others I know about have a CHP and conceal. And even I usually conceal a work. I have no problem with CC as long as it's legal. Peter nap seems to suggest that it would be legal without CHP and without company's permission. I don't agree. I think that an employee without a CHP would need permission if there was no company policy condoning CC. Since "don't ask don't tell" seems to be the consensus, I can't really see having a process for authorizing CC without a permit.

Regarding new employees, part of the interview process, if they get far enough along, is a nice lunch, where of course I open carry. I hadinterviewees react differently (or not at all) to my sidearm. They also get a bigpacket of company policies with an offer letter that they are asked to review and acknowledge as a condition of the offer. The ones interested in carrying will be able to look for weapons policy and find none (i.e. permission to carry) before taking the job. That's exactly what I did when I accepted.

hunter45 · Jan 31, 2010

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VCDL President wrote:

hunter45 wrote:

peter nap wrote:

A person does not need a CHP to conceal at his own place of business.

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
1. Any person while in his own place of business;

Click to expand...

Does this mean I could carry concealed at the golf course where I work?

Click to expand...

If you own the golf course, you are fine.

The country club is owned by the members, and I am also a member as well as an employee. So I don't know, maybe I do technically count as an owner?

skidmark · Jan 31, 2010

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hunter45 wrote:

VCDL President wrote:

hunter45 wrote:

peter nap wrote:

A person does not need a CHP to conceal at his own place of business.

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
1. Any person while in his own place of business;

Click to expand...

Does this mean I could carry concealed at the golf course where I work?

Click to expand...

If you own the golf course, you are fine.

Click to expand...

The country club is owned by the members, and I am also a member as well as an employee. So I don't know, maybe I do technically count as an owner?

Did the members form a corporation (word used loosely here) or does each member hold an equal share of the entity as a whole? If not the second (which would be very exceptional as it would require all members to vote on everything) then you arean employee of the corporation (again, the word is used loosely) as well as a shareholder/member. Since you are not the head of the corporation you are not at your place of business when working as an employee. You would only need the owner's permission if there was a notice that others - non-employees - were prohibited from carrying -- unless you work in the part of the country club where they serve alcohol for on-premises consumption (see concealed carry permit laws for need for permission of owner).

Why didn't you ask about how far you have to be from a school? It's so much easier to answer that -- NOT! :lol:

stay safe.

skidmark

user · Feb 4, 2010

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If I were in your position, I'd want to have a list of the people, possibly with photographs, who have indicated a desire to be armed while at work. And I'd want such people to be organized and receive special training for emergency situations. But a major reason for the facebook is that the security guys need to be able to tell the cops who's supposed to have a gun, so they'll be able to distinguish them from the intruders who are not. So my policy would be to encourage lawful carrying of firearms, but under certain conditions. Anyone who wants to carry ought to notify you that they're doing so, and you need to be satisfied with their level of training. Anyone can carry openly with no training at all, and you can get a CHP with a one-hour online video course. I'd want to be sure that guns will be treated properly. So I would establish a "company carry permit", and tell people who do not have proper training, or who want to pull their guns out and try out the laser grip on the co-workers that they're not allowed until they complete a proper training course. You could arrange to offer one as an employee benefit, btw.

ed · Feb 4, 2010

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user wrote:

So I would establish a "company carry permit", and tell people who do not have proper training...

Yeah!! and then make them go register their guns.... but only revolvers, not any of those new fangled semi-autos... and only in original Colt Blue.. not of those new fancy colors and make them pay some sort of fee to carry.. kinda like a tax.. yeah.. thad be cool... and make them buy their ammo from the company so they load their gun with the correct appropriate load (feel free to charge what you want for ammo since they HAVE to buy it from you or they can't carry).. just for fun so they don't get each others guns mixed up.. make sure everyone is photographed (you already said that) AND fingerprinted! OMG, this is gonna be great!
:banghead:

gis · Feb 4, 2010

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ed wrote:

user wrote:

So I would establish a "company carry permit", and tell people who do not have proper training...

Click to expand...

Yeah!! and then make them go register their guns.... but only revolvers, not any of those new fangled semi-autos... and only in original Colt Blue.. not of those new fancy colors and make them pay some sort of fee to carry.. kinda like a tax.. yeah.. thad be cool... and make them buy their ammo from the company so they load their gun with the correct appropriate load (feel free to charge what you want for ammo since they HAVE to buy it from you or they can't carry).. just for fun so they don't get each others guns mixed up.. make sure everyone is photographed (you already said that) AND fingerprinted! OMG, this is gonna be great!
:banghead:

If I had my choice, I would run it like a police department (SOPs, in-service training, qualificatons, standard issue equipment, etc.). Been there, done that. However, I am working under pretty weird constraints, which are the reasons for our deficiencies in the first place. On one hand I have NY libs running Pesonnel. On the other hand, I have ourGeneral Counsel (he and the CEO are old army buddies) who believes thatabsence of apolicy equates toabsence ofliability. For clearly different reasons, both would rather "not talk about it".

What I am leaning towards is setting up appropriate incident command with a small handpicked group of people with the right training and equipment. They will be identifiable in an emergency via yellow vests, etc. We will coordinate plans with the local LE. However, everyone else will be on their own regarding carrying, with all the benefits andproblems of the "don't ask don't tell" scenario.

user · Feb 4, 2010

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Well, I can see the point of not having a written policy - having litigated such issues, myself. So you know what you want to do, why not just do it? You might want to establish some kind of training for the just plain folks, too, though, like, knowing when to get under the desk?

ProShooter · Feb 4, 2010

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user wrote:

If I were in your position, I'd want to have a list of the people, possibly with photographs, who have indicated a desire to be armed while at work. And I'd want such people to be organized and receive special training for emergency situations. But a major reason for the facebook is that the security guys need to be able to tell the cops who's supposed to have a gun, so they'll be able to distinguish them from the intruders who are not. So my policy would be to encourage lawful carrying of firearms, but under certain conditions. Anyone who wants to carry ought to notify you that they're doing so, and you need to be satisfied with their level of training. Anyone can carry openly with no training at all, and you can get a CHP with a one-hour online video course. I'd want to be sure that guns will be treated properly. So I would establish a "company carry permit", and tell people who do not have proper training, or who want to pull their guns out and try out the laser grip on the co-workers that they're not allowed until they complete a proper training course. You could arrange to offer one as an employee benefit, btw.

+1 I think that these are some valid ideas.

KBCraig · Feb 9, 2010

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gis, when my wife ventured briefly into national retail (she's now safely back to self-employed, with all its risks and rewards), I read her employee handbook very carefully for weapons restrictions. This being a well-known national retailer (a pet specialty chain), I figured they would have a strict "no weapons" policy.

Nope. My paraphrase from memory (it's been a few years): "Employees may not possess any illegal weapons on Company property, including parking lots."

And that was that. No distinctions between guns and other weapons, or on/off duty. Their butts were covered for liability by forbidding illegal weapons, but legal employees could carry, even on the clock.

I'd suggest similar wording in your employee handbook or standards of conduct.

Edit: I think it actually said "employees may not illegally possess weapons", which is probably more clear.

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