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Thread: Yakima man fends off burglars

  1. #1
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    I think this will be a good test of how far you can go with force and defense of home. This guy shot at a car as they were driving away! Yet there is no mention of his arrest, just the crooks.

    http://www.kndo.com/Global/story.asp?S=11910288



    WEST OF UNION GAP--A homeowner takes matters into his own hands and thwarts an attempted burglary.
    Jeff Gillespie with the Yakima County Sheriff's Office said in a press release that three men knocked on the door of a home on the 27000 block of 62nd Avenue, west of Union Gap. When the homeowners didn't answer, one suspect threw a brick through a window and the men entered.
    That's when the would-be victim grabbed a shotgun and pointed it at one of the suspects.
    The three ran off, two jumping in their car. The homeowner fired three shots at the suspects' car. After a high-speed chase, deputies arrested the two with assistance from Yakima and Union Gap police officers.
    The other was found on foot about ten blocks from the scene.
    Deputies did not release the suspects' names. They will be booked into jail on burglary charges.

  2. #2
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    I personally, would have not fired shot at fleeing car. It this point I don’t believe me life is in jeopardy. Nothing taken, no assault mentioned, sounds risky to me. I wonder if it was a residential area? Slugs, or buck shot flying, flying where?
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    someone tries to break into my house and I will be dumping a mag full on their car and them.

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    This occurred in a rural part of Yakima.

    It appears quite often in Yakima even though no arrest of the victim was made at this time, there is no doubt that the prosecutors office will be reviewing closely to what occurred.

    I also concur if things went down as said, there was no grounds for shooting at fleeing criminals but I wish I was a fly on the car that left lol and to watch the one left by his buddies to run on foot.

    You know what they say, if being run down by a bear, you only need to be faster then your slowest friend!
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    n16ht5 wrote:
    someone tries to break into my house and I will be dumping a mag full on their car and them.
    Why would you put out such a statement that could come back and haunt you down the road?

    Once their is no longer an immediate threat of life or limb, at that instant the lawful use of lethal force stops.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    BigDave wrote:
    n16ht5 wrote:
    someone tries to break into my house and I will be dumping a mag full on their car and them.
    Why would you put out such a statement that could come back and haunt you down the road?

    Once their is no longer an immediate threat of life or limb, at that instant the lawful use of lethal force stops.
    in that case, make sure you unload on the guy with "non-lethal" ammunition :celebrate

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    swatspyder wrote:
    BigDave wrote:
    n16ht5 wrote:
    someone tries to break into my house and I will be dumping a mag full on their car and them.
    Why would you put out such a statement that could come back and haunt you down the road?

    Once their is no longer an immediate threat of life or limb, at that instant the lawful use of lethal force stops.
    in that case, make sure you unload on the guy with "non-lethal" ammunition :celebrate
    As long as the magazines you used, held less than 10 rounds, you would be a TON less lethal. So no problem, spray away and swap out magazines!
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    The only issue I see as to why he is not or will not be charged is that this area may not be restricted as to discharge of weapons thus if he did not hit anything reported or anyone then was their a crime committed?


    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
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    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Good point, that would be incredibly lucky.

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    So he shoots at a fleeing car with a shotgun and misses altogether?
    If he hasn't done anything illegal, maybe we could take up a collection and get him some training.
    Cause it sounds like he might need it.....

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    swatspyder wrote:
    BigDave wrote:
    n16ht5 wrote:
    someone tries to break into my house and I will be dumping a mag full on their car and them.
    Why would you put out such a statement that could come back and haunt you down the road?

    Once their is no longer an immediate threat of life or limb, at that instant the lawful use of lethal force stops.
    in that case, make sure you unload on the guy with "non-lethal" ammunition :celebrate

    Actually my shotgun is kept full of rubber slugs. I should be fine. My first line at home is my 12ga with rubber.. if that doesn't work I am always carrying my glock.

    And there is always a threat.. when they come back.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Brick through the window and breaking and entering a felony right?
    Might not be why he was charged with anything. (Homeowner)
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  13. #13
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Brick through the window and breaking and entering a felony right?
    Might not be why he was charged with anything. (Homeowner)
    With this logic explain this, Last year a young man shot and killed a perp outside his home for steeling his stereo our of his car (felony) while running away, he is doing time!
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
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    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    BigDave wrote:
    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Brick through the window and breaking and entering a felony right?
    Might not be why he was charged with anything. (Homeowner)
    With this logic explain this, Last year a young man shot and killed a perp outside his home for steeling his stereo our of his car (felony) while running away, he is doing time!
    Look at the post carefully, Dave you gotta stop putting more into what I say. First it is not my reasoning I am supposing maybe its the reasoning of the local authorities. So not my logic wondering if that is their logic.

    I don't know many people who own car stereos expensive enough to classify it as a felony. So if you have a cite that it is cite it.

    With the shooting of the car prowler, the attempt could have only been a misdemeanor.


    RCW 9A.52.100Vehicle prowling in the second degree.
    (1) A person is guilty of vehicle prowling in the second degree if, with intent to commit a crime against a person or property therein, he enters or remains unlawfully in a vehicle other than a motor home, as defined in RCW 46.04.305, or a vessel equipped for propulsion by mechanical means or by sail which has a cabin equipped with permanently installed sleeping quarters or cooking facilities.

    (2) Vehicle prowling in the second degree is a gross misdemeanor.

    Where as both 1st and 2nd Burglary is felony.
    (2) Burglary in the first degree is a class A felony.
    (2) Residential burglary is a class B felony. In establishing sentencing guidelines and disposition standards, the sentencing guidelines commission and the juvenile disposition standards commission shall consider residential burglary as a more serious offense than second degree burglary.

    2) Burglary in the second degree is a class B felony.

    Which might make it justifiable by state law.

    RCW 9A.16.050Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.
    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.



    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    BigDave wrote:
    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Brick through the window and breaking and entering a felony right?
    Might not be why he was charged with anything. (Homeowner)
    With this logic explain this, Last year a young man shot and killed a perp outside his home for steeling his stereo our of his car (felony) while running away, he is doing time!
    Look at the post carefully, Dave you gotta stop putting more into what I say. First it is not my reasoning I am supposing maybe its the reasoning of the local authorities. So not my logic wondering if that is their logic.

    I don't know many people who own car stereos expensive enough to classify it as a felony. So if you have a cite that it is cite it.

    With the shooting of the car prowler, the attempt could have only been a misdemeanor.


    RCW 9A.52.100Vehicle prowling in the second degree.
    (1) A person is guilty of vehicle prowling in the second degree if, with intent to commit a crime against a person or property therein, he enters or remains unlawfully in a vehicle other than a motor home, as defined in RCW 46.04.305, or a vessel equipped for propulsion by mechanical means or by sail which has a cabin equipped with permanently installed sleeping quarters or cooking facilities.

    (2) Vehicle prowling in the second degree is a gross misdemeanor.

    Where as both 1st and 2nd Burglary is felony.
    (2) Burglary in the first degree is a class A felony.
    (2) Residential burglary is a class B felony. In establishing sentencing guidelines and disposition standards, the sentencing guidelines commission and the juvenile disposition standards commission shall consider residential burglary as a more serious offense than second degree burglary.

    2) Burglary in the second degree is a class B felony.

    Which might make it justifiable by state law.

    RCW 9A.16.050Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.
    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.


    Was the window broken of the car to get in? If it caused more than $750 in damage, it fits 9A.48.080


    1) A person is guilty of malicious mischief in the second degree if he or she knowingly and maliciously:

    (a) Causes physical damage to the property of another in an amount exceeding seven hundred fifty dollars; or

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    RCW 9A.56.040Theft in the second degree — Other than firearm or motor vehicle.(1) A person is guilty of theft in the second degree if he or she commits theft of:

    (a) Property or services which exceed(s) seven hundred fifty dollars in value but does not exceed five thousand dollars in value, other than a firearm as defined in RCW 9.41.010 or a motor vehicle; or

    (b) A public record, writing, or instrument kept, filed, or deposited according to law with or in the keeping of any public office or public servant; or

    (c) An access device.

    (2) Theft in the second degree is a class C felony.


    Today it is easy to exceed the cost of $750.00 to make it a Class C felony.
    Just breaking into a car can reach that total.
    The point you are missing here is that once there is no longer a threat to life or limb at that moment in time the use of deadly force is no longer justified, thus shooting at a vehicle fleeing away from you can place you in big legal trouble.
    The thread and the incident is discussing the use of deadly force in this incident.
    The burglary occurred and the perp was confronted and ran away to a car to speed away, then the shots were fired, where is the immediate threat to life or limb to justify the use of deadly force.
    SVG you need to look past your nose once in awhile and understand what is being written instead of just looking for your desired outcome.
    Cite "BigDave Says So" :P

    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Dave you can't follow your own advise can you?

    Do you know the car prowler committed a felony for sure? Was his car on his property. Is car listed as place you can use justifiable homocide.during a felony? If there is no danger to you or others?

    But again you just resort to ad hominem attacks. Are you that threatened by every damn thing I say? Before you start attacking what I say prove it wrong and read it correctly.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Just to try and clarify the issue, Big Dave pointed out that it would be difficult to raise the "self defense" exception to homicide if a person is driving away in a car. SVG, are you operating under the belief that you can shoot at fleeing persons if they committed a felony? I wasn't able to understand your position on the shooting.

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    Unless the homeowner had his shotgun loaded with slugs, I doubt that it would have been very lethal against a fleeing car, at distance. Even 00 buck isn't going to penetrate a cars body or windshields very well. At best, it would "mark" the car with tiny dents and chipped paint, making it easy to ID as the "get away" vehicle.

    That said, I don't think it's a good idea to shoot at fleeing BG's.

  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I have no position on this shooting I don't have enough info. I simply was making an hypothesis of why this guy might have not been charged.

    Dave's comparison to the car prowler could have been a either a misdemeanor or a felony and that guys car might not have been on his property is not a fair comparison.

    This was definately a felony the car may have been on his property. So according to the cites it may if he had shot these criminals justifiable by state law.

    Why Dave has to take everything I say as a personal affront to his obvious wealth of knowledge and wisdom is beyond me.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Dave you can't follow your own advise can you?

    Do you know the car prowler committed a felony for sure? Was his car on his property. Is car listed as place you can use justifiable homocide.during a felony? If there is no danger to you or others?

    But again you just resort to ad hominem attacks. Are you that threatened by every damn thing I say? Before you start attacking what I say prove it wrong and read it correctly.
    I am not going to go back and try to find the story so take it for what it is worth.

    The incident occurred I believe in North Seattle at night where a resident looked out from his upstairs window saw a couple of men breaking into his car park in his drive way below him, he yelled for them to drop the stereo and one turned according to him in what he thought was a furtive movement as to draw a weapon and he brought up his rifle and shot and killed him (struck him in the back of the head).
    The prosecutor pressured him to plea to a lesser charge and I am not sure if he is still serving his time for this.

    The issue at hand here, is just because a felony has been committed does not fulfill the requirements to use deadly force.
    The main component of using deadly force is an immediate threat to life or limb, this is not before or after the immediate threat it is at that moment in time only.

    Some have a fascination of wanting to use a firearm so badly they hope they find an incident to do just that, this is quite concerning to say the least.
    Issues of pulling a firearm on felonies that do not involve the threat of life or limb is placing oneself into a deeper jeopardy then most think.

    Just because one may be right, does not mean he/she will not spend time in jail or in prison.
    What happens if you are charged, placed in jail or worse in prison who is supporting your family, looking out for their welfare, future and life savings?
    Your loved ones depend upon what you will or will not do, so when making that choice make sure it is worth what you may loose.

    So when it comes to these issues, am I intense? You Damm Right I Am as I would hate to see any lawful citizen exercising their right to loose their freedom and rights or worse their life, for choosing to act in a manner that is not life or death event.

    SVG as to why the home owner was charged, If I am lucky tomorrow I will have the chance to talk with the Yakima County Prosecutor on this very issue to get his views on it.

    Again the issue of the perp committing a crime of burglary and then disengaging (the threat is no longer present) and running away does not fit employing Deadly Force (ie shooting).

    A good way to evaluate and articulate when the use of Deadly Force is Authorized can be seen by using AOJ.
    Ability
    Opportunity
    Jeopardy
    and some add Preclusion where everything must be present at the same time along with a that the force was not more then necessary and that a prudent man would have responded the same knowing what you knew, before and at that point in time.

    If you are missing one element of AOJ, then the requirements for the use deadly force have not been met.

    SVG as to citing things I will when I feel it is needed, that is why I keep posting for you lol, Cite "Because BigDave Said So" to bad they do not have signatures in this forum as that would be mine
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    Unless the homeowner had his shotgun loaded with slugs, I doubt that it would have been very lethal against a fleeing car, at distance. Even 00 buck isn't going to penetrate a cars body or windshields very well. At best, it would "mark" the car with tiny dents and chipped paint, making it easy to ID as the "get away" vehicle.

    That said, I don't think it's a good idea to shoot at fleeing BG's.
    Paintball gun, yellow balls, full-auto?

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Dave's comparison to the car prowler could have been a either a misdemeanor or a felony and that guys car might not have been on his property is not a fair comparison.

    This was definately a felony the car may have been on his property. So according to the cites it may if he had shot these criminals justifiable by state law.
    SVG both were felony's and it is directly related to as shots being fired when in both instances the perps were running away and were shot at.

    The issue of having the car on his property or not has no basis for determining to use deadly force or not.
    If you are referring to ones domain then the domain is confined to ones house or attached structures as a deck or garage, but it must be attached.
    An RV, hotel room and even possibly a tent could be considered ones domain but the property surrounding it is just property and does not maintain the same level of implied threat.

    If someone uninvited enters your property in itself is not a threat to life and limb if someone uninvited enters your domain "House or Attached Structure" is considered an immediate threat to you and your family. This is why our legislature saw fit to include an exception for your place of abode where you can threaten or display deadly force from inside or upon your place of abode with out legal recourse if someone is there uninvited.


    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    cynicist wrote:

    The three ran off, two jumping in their car. The homeowner fired three shots at the suspects' car. After a high-speed chase, deputies arrested the two with assistance from Yakima and Union Gap police officers.
    The other was found on foot about ten blocks from the scene.
    Goof with a gun for sure.

    Probable violation of supportof HankT's Postulateof Civilian Self-Defense©:

    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.


    Remember, HPCSD© alwaysapplies. Even when some scumbags try to rob your home.

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    Several states had statutes authorizing LEO's use of deadly force to prevent felons from escaping. The courts ruled those statutes violated the constitution and placed further restrictions that the officer needed P.C. that the felon posed a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner

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