UOC question

Sjames · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

This is been bugging me.

Bear with me.

So your going about your business UOCing. A BG comes to get you with deadly intent. You manage to get you magazine in and rack the slide. Somehow with out the BG engaging you and you have both hands free...

Anyway once the gun is loaded are you not breaking the law even if you are defending yourself?

I dont understand that part where you can load the gun but not keep it loaded.

Thanks

PincheOgro1 · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

I think once the threat is gone, you're supposed to unload. Hey I'm new here too. What's a BG ?

dirtykoala · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

I'm on my phone otherwise I would find it for you. I think it's in 12031 that it gives examplesof when you can load. If you feel that your life is in danger, you can.

greg36f · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

dirtykoala wrote:

I'm on my phone otherwise I would find it for you. I think it's in 12031 that it gives examplesof when you can load. If you feel that your life is in danger, you can.

12031 (j) (1) seems to cover it.....

(j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the
carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would
otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the
person or property of himself or herself or of another is in
immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is
necessary for the preservation of that person or property. As used
in this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and
after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has
been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its
assistance.

Man with a gun calls are going to come flying in to the local PD....This time they are going to report that you have it out and are pointing it at someone, so you are probably going to get a very different response than a simple E check.

It gets real sticky if the bad guy is still right there (you don't want to put it down in front of him whenthe police arrive) so think of a plan.

I would be yelling out who I was immediately to the PD and think about dropping the mag and tossing the gun away (onto something soft hopefully). It your gun does not have a mag disconnect, this may take a little more thought. I would not be jacking a round out of the chamber with PD guns pointed at you. No one is going to steal your gun with 20 cops there and if they did, it's better than getting shot.

This is beating a dead horse, but if you are going to open carry, you had better have thought of ALL of the reasonable situations you may find yourself in.

Do you have a phone with pre set 911, do you have a means to restrain someone, do you have a less than lethal force plan, what are you going to do with your family if they are there, are you going to protect just yourself or are you going to step in to protect others,if the bank is getting robbed are you going to try to stop it or be a good witness?

There are a million possibilities and you best have thought through as many as possible.

JJ · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

PincheOgro1 wrote:

I think once the threat is gone, you're supposed to unload. Hey I'm new here too. What's a BG ?

I believe BG = Bag Guy

yelohamr · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

I'm on my phone too, but it's 12025.5 a.
At least that's what covered me several times years ago.

greg36f · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

yelohamr wrote:

I'm on my phone too, but it's 12025.5 a.
At least that's what covered me several times years ago.

That's only if you have a restraining order...

mjones · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

greg36f wrote:

12031 (j) (1) seems to cover it.....

Man with a gun calls are going to come flying in to the local PD....This time they are going to report that you have it out and are pointing it at someone, so you are probably going to get a very different response than a simple E check.

It gets real sticky if the bad guy is still right there (you don't want to put it down in front of him whenthe police arrive) so think of a plan.

I would be yelling out who I was immediately to the PD and think about dropping the mag and tossing the gun away (onto something soft hopefully). It your gun does not have a mag disconnect, this may take a little more thought. I would not be jacking a round out of the chamber with PD guns pointed at you. No one is going to steal your gun with 20 cops there and if they did, it's better than getting shot.

12031 (k) might also be appropriate.

12031 (k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying
of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making
or attempting to make a lawful arrest.

When LEOs arrive, do everything possible to indicate your a good guy, but whatever you do, stay as frozen as a statue as you can.

I would recommend screaming "May Islowly holster my weapon?" several times.

yelohamr · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

greg36f wrote:

yelohamr wrote:

I'm on my phone too, but it's 12025.5 a.
At least that's what covered me several times years ago.

Click to expand...

That's only if you have a restraining order...

I'm not on my phone now.
You're right. For some reason that stuck in my mind. 12025 covers if you are making a lawful arrest.

For self defense http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen/187-199.html

197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.

Theseus · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

In the instance where police will be responding and you are still holding a bad guy at gunpoint I think it would be wisest to listen carefully to what the police say.

Don't make any movements that they are not telling you to make, and communicate with them.

Other than school zones you are allowed to load a firearm for the purpose of defense of life and property. In school zones you are not allowed to even have the gun, loaded or not, since there is no self-defense exemption unless you have a restraining/protective order.

greg36f wrote:

dirtykoala wrote:

I'm on my phone otherwise I would find it for you. I think it's in 12031 that it gives examplesof when you can load. If you feel that your life is in danger, you can.

Click to expand...

12031 (j) (1) seems to cover it.....

(j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the
carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would
otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the
person or property of himself or herself or of another is in
immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is
necessary for the preservation of that person or property. As used
in this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and
after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has
been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its
assistance.

Man with a gun calls are going to come flying in to the local PD....This time they are going to report that you have it out and are pointing it at someone, so you are probably going to get a very different response than a simple E check.

It gets real sticky if the bad guy is still right there (you don't want to put it down in front of him whenthe police arrive) so think of a plan.

I would be yelling out who I was immediately to the PD and think about dropping the mag and tossing the gun away (onto something soft hopefully). It your gun does not have a mag disconnect, this may take a little more thought. I would not be jacking a round out of the chamber with PD guns pointed at you. No one is going to steal your gun with 20 cops there and if they did, it's better than getting shot.

This is beating a dead horse, but if you are going to open carry, you had better have thought of ALL of the reasonable situations you may find yourself in.

Do you have a phone with pre set 911, do you have a means to restrain someone, do you have a less than lethal force plan, what are you going to do with your family if they are there, are you going to protect just yourself or are you going to step in to protect others,if the bank is getting robbed are you going to try to stop it or be a good witness?

There are a million possibilities and you best have thought through as many as possible.

inbox485 · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

JJ wrote:

PincheOgro1 wrote:

I think once the threat is gone, you're supposed to unload. Hey I'm new here too. What's a BG ?

Click to expand...

I believe BG = Bag Guy

BG is used interchangeably to mean either bad guy (usually meant to be a shoot worthy individual) or ballistic gel. The common denominator is that you shoot both of them, and a lot of us haven't seen a either of them in real life.

inbox485 · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

Theseus wrote:

In the instance where police will be responding and you are still holding a bad guy at gunpoint I think it would be wisest to listen carefully to what the police say.

Don't make any movements that they are not telling you to make, and communicate with them.

One technique worth considering is ordering the compliant BG to face away from you. Instruct them that if for any reason they look in your direction it will be considered a threat and they will be shot. Then holster your gun so you don't have it in hand when police arrive. That way you can point with your finger and not a gun. Think about the homeowner that got the swiss cheese treatment a while back.

N6ATF · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

inbox485 wrote:

Theseus wrote:

In the instance where police will be responding and you are still holding a bad guy at gunpoint I think it would be wisest to listen carefully to what the police say.

Don't make any movements that they are not telling you to make, and communicate with them.

Click to expand...

One technique worth considering is ordering the compliant BG to face away from you. Instruct them that if for any reason they look in your direction it will be considered a threat and they will be shot.

If you watch COPS and the like, criminals almost never follow directions. Unless you have a taser or pepper spray gun to fire in their eyes, I wouldn't bluff lethal force like that, because it'll be called almost every time.

mjones · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

N6ATF wrote:

If you watch COPS and the like, criminals almost never follow directions. Unless you have a taser or pepper spray gun to fire in their eyes, I wouldn't bluff lethal force like that, because it'll be called almost every time.

This could never be overstated enough; Do not ever expect a bad guy to cower in fear before your almighty boom stick.

Let's put it this way, you are likely not the first person to ever point a gun at a bad guy, so don't be surprised when it doesn't intimidate him.

inbox485 · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

N6ATF wrote:

inbox485 wrote:

Theseus wrote:

In the instance where police will be responding and you are still holding a bad guy at gunpoint I think it would be wisest to listen carefully to what the police say.

Don't make any movements that they are not telling you to make, and communicate with them.

Click to expand...

One technique worth considering is ordering the compliant BG to face away from you. Instruct them that if for any reason they look in your direction it will be considered a threat and they will be shot.

Click to expand...

If you watch COPS and the like, criminals almost never follow directions. Unless you have a taser or pepper spray gun to fire in their eyes, I wouldn't bluff lethal force like that, because it'll be called almost every time.

Who said I was bluffing? Either they are a deadly threat or they are compliant. I'm assuming the theoretical situation involved a valid reason to pull the gun in the first place. I didn't paint the whole picture, but there is no bluff involved. In addition to being faced away, they need to be in a position where several gestures are required to escape the position. COPS and such show a few common to police. I prefer others. These give you the time to pull and shoot if needed. In any case, an understanding of the individual circumstances and good judgment are needed.

Guy B. Meredith · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

WHAT??!!

Homicide is permissible to prevent the commission of a felony? Not deadly threat? I thought that was only permitted in places like Texas. What is the zinger that I'm not seeing here?

How is felony described for these circumstances? Caveats?

Cameron · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

Guy B. Meredith wrote:

WHAT??!!

Homicide is permissible to prevent the commission of a felony? Not deadly threat? I thought that was only permitted in places like Texas. What is the zinger that I'm not seeing here?

How is felony described for these circumstances? Caveats?

CA_Libertarian on another thread posted this as a reply to a similar line of questioning: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/3842.html ref. I have not had a chance to read the entire case law mentioned, but it does seem to apply.

inbox485 · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

Cameron wrote:

Guy B. Meredith wrote:

WHAT??!!

Homicide is permissible to prevent the commission of a felony? Not deadly threat? I thought that was only permitted in places like Texas. What is the zinger that I'm not seeing here?

How is felony described for these circumstances? Caveats?

Click to expand...

CA_Libertarian on another thread posted this as a reply to a similar line of questioning: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/3842.html ref. I have not had a chance to read the entire case law mentioned, but it does seem to apply.

It is not necessary to read too much case law. Just expect that resistance will be interpreted to be limited to the minimal force required to prevent harm.

Theseus · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

You can arm yourself to conduct a citizens arrest and use necessary force to effect the arrest, however you as a private citizen will have a hard time getting the same leniency as a LEO in the eyes of a DA and jury.

Cameron · Feb 2, 2010

imported post

Theseus wrote:

You can arm yourself to conduct a citizens arrest and use necessary force to effect the arrest, however you as a private citizen will have a hard time getting the same leniency as a LEO in the eyes of a DA and jury.

That is exactly my understanding... the law allows for it, but I believe it would be taken one step further... it would be rather difficult to get a true jury of our peers. More likely the jury would be full of people who do not understand the laws and have no understanding at all (or perhaps a very minimal understanding) of 2A... this is California, after all. But I really do not expect the officer to let the OCer off right at the scene. I would expect that whomever this happened to would definitely get hauled in. Perhaps this isn't accurate, I'm not a lawyer, but I would attempt to keep the unholstering and loading down to situations that you believe are extremely likely to result in imminent grievous harm to oneself, a friend or a family member.

UOC question

New member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Founder's Club Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Banned

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Founder's Club Member

Regular Member