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Thread: Have you really thought this through?

  1. #1
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    None of this is meant to discourage any form of carry, but I think that these are important issues to address. Some of this has been covered in other posts, but I have never seen this issue address directly in its own post, so here goes. I would like to know if you have really though through what carrying a weapon entails.

    1)
    Are you going to protect just yourself from a deadly threat, or are you going to step in and protect others.


    2) What in your mind rises to the level of a deadly threat?

    3) Have you considered that when you are carrying a gun only, that the only means you have to react to any threat is deadly force, meaning you have no pepper spray, no baton, no TASER; if you decide to engage, its all or nothing.

    4) Are you going to attempt to perform an arrest of any sort if you see a crime occurring, but no lives are in danger?

    5) Having decided that you are going to perform a citizen’s arrest, have you considered that you probably do not have any means to restrain this person (handcuffs, flex cuffs, ect.)?

    6) Have you considered the fact that if you are carrying a gun and you get into a physical altercation that does not rise to the level of deadly force (some sort of stupid argument about a parking space or something), that you have brought a gun into that situation? Do you practice weapon retention; is your holster adequate, does it have at least one, hopefully two levels of retention that you have practiced with?

    7) Do you conduct yourself in a way (polite, avoiding confrontation) that reduces the possibility that you will become involved in such a situation?

    8) Do you dress well? If you do have to hold someone at gun point, first impressions are important. We all make judgments based on appearance and the arriving officers are more likely going react better to a well dressed individual that someone dressed like a slob or in “gang chic’ even if it is the latest trend in hip clothing.

    9) What are you going to do if your spouse / kids are with you? Are you going to react differently? Do they know what to do if you do have to react? Do you have a “duck and cover” safe word pre arranged? Do they know to get on the phone if it is safe and tell the police exactly what is happening and know to DESCRIBE YOU IN DETAIL?

    10) What is your plan when the police do arrive?

    11) Most important, are you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY willing to shot someone. Be honest with yourself because no one else knows but you, and you may not even REALLY know until the time comes.



    I am not offering answers to any of these questions and in the interest of brevity (I know, too late) I have left out about twenty other questions that I think should be considered.


    These questions are meant to provoke thought. Please don’t focus on only one and slam me for asking that one question. I am willing to take a hit on the whole, but I think we lose something when we focus on one tree in the forest.

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    Yes, some of us have considered all of that.

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    I'm a big fan of running away (IF possible). If I can't then come what may.

    Great questions. And I'll plug "how to own a gun and stay out of jail" - it includes self defense national and state case law in addition to the laws. Nobody who is willing to defend themselves, even just with fists, should be without it's sage advice.

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    greg36f wrote:
    None of this is meant to discourage any form of carry, but I think that these are important issues to address. Some of this has been covered in other posts, but I have never seen this issue address directly in its own post, so here goes. I would like to know if you have really though through what carrying a weapon entails.

    1) Are you going to protect just yourself from a deadly threat, or are you going to step in and protect others.

    2) What in your mind rises to the level of a deadly threat?

    3) Have you considered that when you are carrying a gun only, that the only means you have to react to any threat is deadly force, meaning you have no pepper spray, no baton, no TASER; if you decide to engage, its all or nothing.

    4) Are you going to attempt to perform an arrest of any sort if you see a crime occurring, but no lives are in danger?

    5) Having decided that you are going to perform a citizen’s arrest, have you considered that you probably do not have any means to restrain this person (handcuffs, flex cuffs, ect.)?

    6) Have you considered the fact that if you are carrying a gun and you get into a physical altercation that does not rise to the level of deadly force (some sort of stupid argument about a parking space or something), that you have brought a gun into that situation? Do you practice weapon retention; is your holster adequate, does it have at least one, hopefully two levels of retention that you have practiced with?

    7) Do you conduct yourself in a way (polite, avoiding confrontation) that reduces the possibility that you will become involved in such a situation?

    8) Do you dress well? If you do have to hold someone at gun point, first impressions are important. We all [/b]make judgments based on appearance and the arriving officers are more likely going react better to a well dressed individual that someone dressed like a slob or in “gang chic’ even if it is the latest trend in hip clothing.

    9) What are you going to do if your spouse / kids are with you? Are you going to react differently? Do they know what to do if you do have to react? Do you have a “duck and cover” safe word pre arranged? Do they know to get on the phone if it is safe and tell the police exactly what is happening and know to DESCRIBE YOU IN DETAIL?

    10) What is your plan when the police do arrive?

    11) Most important, are you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY willing to shot someone. Be honest with yourself because no one else knows but you, and you may not even REALLY know until the time comes.

    I am not offering answers to any of these questions and in the interest of brevity (I know, too late) I have left out about twenty other questions that I think should be considered.


    These questions are meant to provoke thought. Please don’t focus on only one and slam me for asking that one question. I am willing to take a hit on the whole, but I think we lose something when we focus on one tree in the forest.
    1) Most of us have considered protecting ourselves and possibly others, but more importantly ourselves and any loved ones with us. The REAL question is; "Are yougoing stand by idly and let someone maim, rape, or kill you or some one else in your presence?"

    2) Anyone with the means to do harm is a deadly threat. The unpredictability of the human mind in these situationsmeans there is a potentialfor a deadly threat (and the fact that we are not psychics). No human shouldbe required to take their chances on dying or being raped.

    3) Actually, some people carry tasers and mace along with their sidearms. Just because someone has a gun does not mean they will respond to ANY threat with deadly force. A scuffle or someone continuously getting too close isn't exactly a deadly threat, that is why some of us take evasive action (which is not always possible) and some of us carry non-lethal or less-than-lethal protection. Most places I know of, batons are illegal. Knives larger than 4" are illegal (such as here in NC). So options are often limited.

    4) Carrying a weapon does not mean, or make us feel as though, we are peace officers. Different states have different laws regarding this. In North Carolina, only authorized law enforcement officers have arrest powers (the FBI, DEA, etc can't even arrest anyone in the state). Everyone other than NC LEO's can only initiate a detainment and that is only to determine if a crime has been comitted by a LEO and from there, the LEO will enact an arrest if need be. So no, I won't be arresting anyone and most other people will not either.

    5) Defer to the above. I don't know where this citizens arrest foolishness came from. That is not what OC or carrying a gun period is about. It is about protecting yourself, loved ones, inoccent lives, your state and country, whatever you feel as though you are obligated to protect requiring deadly force.

    6) Retention is important. Most sensible carriers of firearms, concealed or open, understand retention and how they choose to carry their firearm is their prerogative. If one feels comfortable about getting into a physical confrontation witha holster with no retention, that is their business. Some of us choose this and other choose more protection. And most of us avoid physical confrontation over trivial issues.

    7) Defer to the last sentence above.

    8) Dress well? Regardless, keep your story truthful, if you feel you want to speak to a lawyer then don't speak at all. When police arrive, regardless of what you are wearing, put the gun down. Cops are trained to investigate and find the truth but yes they may be harsh on someone that looks rough versus the other way around but there have been plenty of cases wear police have treated the well dressed individual with the same as anyone else. We don't live in a B-movie; anyone holding a gun on someone when police pull up doesn't look good and you will be dealt with. Your immediate cooperation may determine if you walk away without one of their bullets in your body.

    9) Situations change. It would be good for people to have a plan of action for different situations. The best you can do is make sure they [family] know how to be watchful of their surroundings, listen closely to you (if you are assuming command), run like an Olympic sprinter at the first opportunity of escape, etc, etc. Better to be armed and be able to protect them when escape is not an option, than to look dumb holding your dead wife or child or them holding you (or no one being able to hold anyone).

    9) Situations change. It would be good for people to have a plan of action for different situations. The best you can do is make sure they know how to be watchful of their surroundings, listen closely to you (if you are assuming command), run like an Olympic sprinter at the first opportunity of escape, etc, etc. Better to be armed and be able to protect them when escape is not an option, than to look dumb holding your dead wife or child or them holding you (or no one being able to hold anyone).

    10) One Word: COOPERATE

    11) I hope I am really readyto shoot to defend my life. That is all I can say. Pulling the trigger, I hope, can only be as easy as if pointing at paper target. But I am sure it is not. I hope my will to live is far greater than my fear of shooting someone.

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    1. depends on the situation. i will always protect myself and my wife. i hate to say it, but the litigation system in america is so messed up that it is, for me, a factor when helping someone.

    2. i think this is situational. im sure instict and training will kick in and help assess the situation. this question might be a little broad, or maybe im reading it wrong.. drunk drivers, someone threatening suicide, i man on LSD in a park waving abat around to fend off invisible pink bunnies... i dont think any of those deadly threats warrant deadly force, but they are still deadly threats.

    3. i carry a knife most of the time, tazer and/or pepper spray usually close by, judo chop always ready.

    4. no. thats what police are for.

    5. probablywill notcitizens arrest,probably willtie a bad guys legs around a pole using his own legs until the cops get there. belts also work, as does a knee on the neck while they are proned out.

    6. it has happend, someone almost hit me while passing me unsafely in a parking garrage soi honked and he stopped, got out of his carand started walking toward me cussing. i could have got out of my car with my gun, but i drove away. i dont see a need for retention of an unloaded gun, i think its safer to let the person take the gun if they are already that close, then they can try to figure out how to use it whileyou take advantage of the situation. if they really want your gun, and have a good grasp on it, while retained, they have you by the hip and in a really bad situation.

    7. i try to.

    8. depends on your opinion i guess, i dont dress up for my gun though. i wear what i normally wear, if we want the public to see guns as normal, they should see gun carriers as normal. i dont look like a fool with my pants on the ground, hat turned sideways, gold in my mouth, lookin like a fool with my pants on the ground.

    9. i dont have a safe word, she knows to listen for clear and precise instructions though. we had a "safe word" for a while, but every week or so when i would ask if she remembered it, she didnt. plus the situation is never going to be the same, and what works for one, probably wont for the other. yes, she knows to be very clear with dispach about who i am.

    10. once sirens are near by, i will probably holster my gun or throw it if it has a soft landing area. once lights are on the scene, my ands are going in the air and i might lay down with my hands behind my head.

    11. yes. im sure there will be a degree of regret later on, but im sure i could justify it to myself if i was defending my self or my family.
    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    Most of these questions are ones that everyone should have already asked themselves and have answered, regardless of what weapons they carry or how they carry them. Certainly, anyone with a CCW should have considered all this already. How is open carry any different? It is not, in this context.

    Good questions to consider. But again, everyone should, not just open carriers.



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    MudCamper wrote:
    Most of these questions are ones that everyone should have already asked themselves and have answered, regardless of what weapons they carry or how they carry them. Certainly, anyone with a CCW should have considered all this already. How is open carry any different? It is not, in this context.

    Good questions to consider. But again, everyone should, not just open carriers.



    I agree with the bolded above. The questions were not just meant for open carriers. In fact, the questions are the sameones that off duty LEO's should ask themselves.

    Most of the times when I read these forums, I see people talkingtheir "right" to carry and own arms or being angry when their "rights" were violated.

    While I completely support a person’s right to bear arms and I cannot condone the violation of anyone’s rights, I don't often see people talking about the RESPONSIBILITIES of owning, carrying and using firearms.

    This is not to say that people don't often think about these responsibilities, it's just not always part of the discussion here.

    My post was merely to provoke some thought and allow others to share their thoughts on the subject.



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    Tekshogun, NEVER COOPERATE with the police. ONLY COMPLY with lawful orders.

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    1) Are you going to protect just yourself from a deadly threat, or are you going to step in and protect others.
    Depends on the situation.

    2) What in your mind rises to the level of a deadly threat?
    The imminent danger of severe bodily harm.

    3) Have you considered that when you are carrying a gun only, that the only means you have to react to any threat is deadly force, meaning you have no pepper spray, no baton, no TASER; if you decide to engage, its all or nothing.
    Yes. The alternatives you list are notoriously ineffective in many situations.
    4) Are you going to attempt to perform an arrest of any sort if you see a crime occurring, but no lives are in danger?
    No.
    5) Having decided that you are going to perform a citizen’s arrest, have you considered that you probably do not have any means to restrain this person (handcuffs, flex cuffs, ect.)?
    See #4 above.
    6) Have you considered the fact that if you are carrying a gun and you get into a physical altercation that does not rise to the level of deadly force (some sort of stupid argument about a parking space or something), that you have brought a gun into that situation? Do you practice weapon retention; is your holster adequate, does it have at least one, hopefully two levels of retention that you have practiced with?
    I am an emotionally mature adult. I don't get into altercations over parking spaces or "something." And my holster is a retention holster.

    7) Do you conduct yourself in a way (polite, avoiding confrontation) that reduces the possibility that you will become involved in such a situation?
    Yes. See #6 above.

    8) Do you dress well? If you do have to hold someone at gun point, first impressions are important. We all make judgments based on appearance and the arriving officers are more likely going react better to a well dressed individual that someone dressed like a slob or in “gang chic’ even if it is the latest trend in hip clothing.
    Yes, I dress well.

    9) What are you going to do if your spouse / kids are with you? Are you going to react differently? Do they know what to do if you do have to react? Do you have a “duck and cover” safe word pre arranged? Do they know to get on the phone if it is safe and tell the police exactly what is happening and know to DESCRIBE YOU IN DETAIL?
    My wife will assume the FI stance and act as cover while I contact.No. Yes. Yes. Yes.

    10) What is your plan when the police do arrive?
    They are in charge. You will have to ask them what their plan is.
    11) Most important, are you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY willing to shot someone. Be honest with yourself because no one else knows but you, and you may not even REALLY know until the time comes.
    Yes.

    [/quote]

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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    greg36f wrote:
    Most of the times when I read these forums, I see people talkingtheir "right" to carry and own arms or being angry when their "rights" were violated.

    While I completely support a person’s right to bear arms and I cannot condone the violation of anyone’s rights, I don't often see people talking about the RESPONSIBILITIES of owning, carrying and using firearms.

    This is not to say that people don't often think about these responsibilities, it's just not always part of the discussion here.

    My post was merely to provoke some thought and allow others to share their thoughts on the subject.
    I think the reason we focus on the right here is because that right as been so eroded by government intrusion to the point of being almost lost. It needs to be our primary focus.

    That being said, one of my personal favorites on the practical matters of self defense is Massad Ayoob's book, In the Gravest Extreme.


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    greg36f wrote:
    1) Are you going to protect just yourself from a deadly threat, or are you going to step in and protect others.

    2) What in your mind rises to the level of a deadly threat?

    3) Have you considered that when you are carrying a gun only, that the only means you have to react to any threat is deadly force, meaning you have no pepper spray, no baton, no TASER; if you decide to engage, its all or nothing.

    4) Are you going to attempt to perform an arrest of any sort if you see a crime occurring, but no lives are in danger?

    5) Having decided that you are going to perform a citizen’s arrest, have you considered that you probably do not have any means to restrain this person (handcuffs, flex cuffs, ect.)?

    6) Have you considered the fact that if you are carrying a gun and you get into a physical altercation that does not rise to the level of deadly force (some sort of stupid argument about a parking space or something), that you have brought a gun into that situation? Do you practice weapon retention; is your holster adequate, does it have at least one, hopefully two levels of retention that you have practiced with?

    7) Do you conduct yourself in a way (polite, avoiding confrontation) that reduces the possibility that you will become involved in such a situation?

    8) Do you dress well? If you do have to hold someone at gun point, first impressions are important. We all make judgments based on appearance and the arriving officers are more likely going react better to a well dressed individual that someone dressed like a slob or in “gang chic’ even if it is the latest trend in hip clothing.

    9) What are you going to do if your spouse / kids are with you? Are you going to react differently? Do they know what to do if you do have to react? Do you have a “duck and cover” safe word pre arranged? Do they know to get on the phone if it is safe and tell the police exactly what is happening and know to DESCRIBE YOU IN DETAIL?

    10)
    What is your plan when the police do arrive?


    11) Most important, are you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY willing to shot someone. Be honest with yourself because no one else knows but you, and you may not even REALLY know until the time comes.
    OK, my previous post aside, now I'll play along and offer my opinions.

    1 - Primarily myself and my family, but from past experience I know that I am not the kind of person that can sit by while others are threatened, so yes to others, but as Old Timer states, it really depends on the situation.

    2 - imminent threat of great bodily injury or death - Again, all situations are different. It would be impossible to define this, other that to perhaps list example scenarios.

    3 - I carry 2 knives and pepper spay. If I could legally carry a firearms everywhere I would do that also. Different tools for different situations and levels of threat.

    4 - Absolutely NOT.

    5 - N/A

    6 - Perhaps this is why many argue that "an armed society is a polite society" in that knowing that you carry a deadly weapon means you must be extra vigilant to avoid conflict. Walk away, whenever humanly possible.

    7 - see 6

    8 - This is 2 issues. One is dress. IMO UOCers should dress well as they are ambassadors to the 2A community. As to the second part of the question, about holding somebody at gunpoint. I never intend to hold anybody at gunpoint. That is not the job of the citizen and not legally justified in most courts. If I draw my gun it is because question 2 is clear, and I plan on shooting until the threat is gone.

    9 - This one would take a book.

    10 - Have your weapon holstered and comply with all orders.

    11 - Yes. I know that almost everyone who has had to do so has regrets, but if it is a choice between my or my family's life vs a violent criminal's life the choice is clear.

    You seem to be confusing the role of LEO with the responsibility of the armed citizen. Again, read Massad's book.




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    MudCamper wrote:
    greg36f wrote:
    Most of the times when I read these forums, I see people talkingtheir "right" to carry and own arms or being angry when their "rights" were violated.

    While I completely support a person’s right to bear arms and I cannot condone the violation of anyone’s rights, I don't often see people talking about the RESPONSIBILITIES of owning, carrying and using firearms.

    This is not to say that people don't often think about these responsibilities, it's just not always part of the discussion here.

    My post was merely to provoke some thought and allow others to share their thoughts on the subject.
    I think the reason we focus on the right here is because that right as been so eroded by government intrusion to the point of being almost lost. It needs to be our primary focus.

    That being said, one of my personal favorites on the practical matters of self defense is Massad Ayoob's book, In the Gravest Extreme.
    I realize and respect that. I also realize that open carry and 2nd amendment rights are the primaryfocus of this forum.

    It's just that with all the attention that open carry is attracting, there is a lot more people who are considering doing so and there are a lot more people reading this site for help, information and guidance. What may have started as a site for like minded individuals to talk and share informationhas expanded beyond that.

    Many of the new people (and possibly some of the old hands)may nothavereally though the whole thing through.


    We have already seen what happens to people who think it is a great idea to open carry,butgo about doing it unprepared (ie: arrest of a 74 year old man).


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    greg36f wrote:
    I realize and respect that. I also realize that open carry and 2nd amendment rights are the primaryfocus of this forum.

    It's just that with all the attention that open carry is attracting, there is a lot more people who are considering doing so and there are a lot more people reading this site for help, information and guidance. What may have started as a site for like minded individuals to talk and share informationhas expanded beyond that.

    Many of the new people (and possibly some of the old hands)may nothavereally though the whole thing through.


    We have already seen what happens to people who think it is a great idea to open carry,butgo about doing it unprepared (ie: arrest of a 74 year old man).
    You know, you are correct. There will be those who do not understand the proper and legal justification of the use of deadly force that will come here for advice. I will work on adding reference material on this subject to the Open Carry Information thread.


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    All of these important things to consider. As for myself I have consider these things from the time that my father tought me to shoot more than thirty years ago. Even more so after many years in the military and carrying concealed. I think most of us are very responsible gun owners who consider these things just as a condition of owning let alone carrying a gun.

    I appreciate that you took the time to compile and post a list of the mostthought provokingaspects of carry. Especially because there are a few of us who have not yet carried or do so sporadically. now I find myself compelled to read all replies to your post.

    Thanks, Defensor

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    greg36f wrote:
    snip...
    What may have started as a site for like minded individuals to talk and share informationhas expanded beyond that.
    My understanding is that OCDO exists to educate and propagate the right to self-defense of one self and loved ones through the exercise of open carrying - to normalize that condition.

    IMHO - I do not think that the owners of this site/forum wish to see it expanded very far beyond that - they would seem to be much more target specific.

    Yata hey

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    dirtykoala wrote:
    5. probablywill notcitizens arrest,probably willtie a bad guys legs around a pole using his own legs until the cops get there.
    The Grape Vine?

    I had forgot about that. The grape vine is epic. I'll buy anybody a drink who gets a criminal into the grape vine and takes a pic of it as the cops are rolling up to the scene.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mStZM...eature=related

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    bigtoe416 wrote:
    dirtykoala wrote:
    5. probablywill notcitizens arrest,probably willtie a bad guys legs around a pole using his own legs until the cops get there.
    The Grape Vine?

    I had forgot about that. The grape vine is epic. I'll buy anybody a drink who gets a criminal into the grape vine and takes a pic of it as the cops are rolling up to the scene.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mStZM...eature=related
    yes, the grape vine. awesome for detaining suspected terrorists, or earning money from your drunk friends. just like waterboarding! wait what?
    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    Pretty much what I go by.

    1.
    We don't carry firearms so that we can ignore other basics of personal safety. Every permit holder that I know realizes that almost all dangerous situations can be avoided by vigilance, alertness and by simply making wise choices about where one goes and what one does. We don't walk down dark alleys. We lock our cars. We don't get intoxicated in public or hang out around people who do. We park our cars in well lighted spots and don't hang out in bad parts of town where we have no business. A gun is our last resort, not our first.


    2. We don't think we are cops, spies, or superheroes. We aren't hoping that somebody tries to rob the convenience store while we are there so we can shoot a criminal. We don't take it upon ourselves to get involved in situations that are better handled by a 911 call or by simply standing by and being a good witness. We don't believe our guns give us any authority over our fellow citizens. We also aren't here to be your unpaid volunteer bodyguard. We'll be glad to tell you where we trained and point you to some good gun shops if you feel you want to take this kind of responsibility for your personal safety. Except for extraordinary circumstances your business is your business, don't expect us to help you out of situations you could have avoided.


    3. We are LESS likely, not more likely, to be involved in fights or "rage" incidents than the general public. We recognize, better than many unarmed citizens, that we are responsible for our actions. We take the responsibility of carrying a firearm very seriously. We know that loss of temper, getting into fights or angrily confronting someone after a traffic incident could easily escalate into a dangerous situation. We are more likely to go out of our way to avoid these situations. We don't pull our guns to settle arguments or to attempt to threaten people into doing what we want.


    4. We are responsible gun owners. We secure our firearms so that children and other unauthorized people cannot access them. Most of us have invested in safes, cases and lock boxes as well as other security measures to keep our firearms secure. Many of us belong to various organizations that promote firearms safety and ownership.




    5. Guns are not unsafe or unpredictable. Modern firearms are well made precision instruments. Pieces do not simply break off causing them to fire. A hot day will not set them off. Most modern firearms will not discharge even if dropped. There is no reason to be afraid of a gun simply lying on a table or in a holster. It is not going to discharge on its own.


    6. We do not believe in the concept of "accidental discharges". There are no accidental discharges only negligent discharges or intentional discharges. We take responsibility for our actions and have learned how to safely handle firearms. Any case you have ever heard of about a gun "going off" was the result of negligence on somebody's part. Our recognition of our responsibility and familiarity with firearms makes us among the safest firearms owners in America.


    7. Permit holders do their best to keep our concealed weapons exactly that: concealed. However, there are times when an observant fellow citizen may spot our firearm or the print of our firearm under our clothes. We are very cognizant that concerns about terrorism and crime are in the forefront of the minds of most citizens. We also realize that our society does much to condition our fellow citizens to have sometimes irrational fears about firearms. We would encourage citizens who do happen to spot someone carrying a firearm to use good judgment and clear thinking if they feel the need to take action. Please recognize that it's very uncommon for a criminal to use a holster. However, if you feel the need to report having spotted a firearm we would ask that you please be specific and detailed in your call to the police or in your report to a store manager or private security. Please don't generalize or sensationalize what you observed. Comments like "there's a guy running around in the store with a gun" or even simply "I saw a man with a gun in the store" could possibly cause a misunderstanding as to the true nature of the incident.


    8. The fact that we carry a firearm to any given place does not mean that we believe that place to be inherently unsafe. If we believe a place to be unsafe, most of us would avoid that place all together if possible. However, we recognize that trouble could occur at any place and at any time. Criminals do not observe "gun free zones". If trouble does come, we do not want the only armed persons to be perpetrators. Therefore, we don't usually make a determination about whether or not to carry at any given time based on "how safe" we think a location is.


    9. Concealed weapon permit holders are an asset to the public in times of trouble. The fact that most permit holders have the good judgment to stay out of situations better handled by a 911 call or by simply being a careful and vigilant witness does not mean that we would fail to act in situations where the use of deadly force is appropriate to save lives. Review of high profile public shooting incidents shows that when killers are confronted by armed resistance they tend to either break off the attack and flee or choose to end their own life. Lives are saved when resistance engages a violent
    criminal. Lives are lost when the criminal can do as he pleases.


    10. The fact that criminals know that some of the population may be armed at any given time helps to deter violence against all citizens. Permit holders don't believe that every person should necessarily be armed. We recognize that some people may not be temperamentally suited to carry a firearm or simply may wish not to for personal reasons. However we do encourage you to respect our right to arm ourselves. Even if you choose not to carry a firearm yourself please oppose measures to limit the ability of law abiding citizens to be armed. As mentioned before: criminals do not observe "gun free zones". Help by not supporting laws that require citizens to be unarmed victims.

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Did someone say Grape vine? Happen to have some personal knowledge.

    There are three simple ways to defeat it - my favorite is the corkscrew.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDYIK...eature=related

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
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    greg36f wrote:
    None of this is meant to discourage any form of carry, but I think that these are important issues to address. Some of this has been covered in other posts, but I have never seen this issue address directly in its own post, so here goes. I would like to know if you have really though through what carrying a weapon entails.

    1) Are you going to protect just yourself from a deadly threat, or are you going to step in and protect others. I'M NOT A COP. THEY SHOULDA ARMED THEMSELVES. ITS NOT THAT I'M INSENSITIVE, IT'S JUST THAT I CAN AFFORD THE LEGAL COST OF DEFENDING MYSELF FROM PUTTING MY NOSE IN SOMEONE ELSE'S BUSINESS.

    2) What in your mind rises to the level of a deadly threat? I BELIEVE THE LEGAL STANDARD IS SOMEONE WHO HAS THE INTENT AND ABILITY TO CAUSE ME SERIOUS BODILY INJURY OR DEATH.

    3) Have you considered that when you are carrying a gun only, that the only means you have to react to any threat is deadly force, meaning you have no pepper spray, no baton, no TASER; if you decide to engage, its all or nothing. IF I AM GOING TO ENGAGE, IT IS BECAUSE MY LIFE IS IN DANGER. PEPPERSPRAY, TAZERS, ETC. ARE IN MY OPINION INSUFFICIENT FOR THIS PURPOSE.

    4) Are you going to attempt to perform an arrest of any sort if you see a crime occurring, but no lives are in danger? THERE IS NO CITIZENS ARREST IN NORTH CAROLINA. AGAIN, I AM NOT A COP. IF MY LIFE IS NOT IN DANGER, I AM GOING TO DO NOTHING BUT BE A GOOD WITNESS AND COOPERATE WITH THE POLICE.

    5) Having decided that you are going to perform a citizen’s arrest, have you considered that you probably do not have any means to restrain this person (handcuffs, flex cuffs, ect.)? NOT APPLICABLE.

    6) Have you considered the fact that if you are carrying a gun and you get into a physical altercation that does not rise to the level of deadly force (some sort of stupid argument about a parking space or something), that you have brought a gun into that situation? Do you practice weapon retention; is your holster adequate, does it have at least one, hopefully two levels of retention that you have practiced with? FIRST, I AM NOT GOING TO BE INVOLVED IN A "PHYSICAL ALTERCATION" (TRANSLATION: FIGHT). I WOULD WALK AWAY FIRST. I SHOULD HOPE THAT INDEED, IF I AM "PHYSICALLY ALTERCATED" WITHOUT MY CONSENT THAT I WOULD HAVE A DEALDY WEAPON AVAILABLE IN THAT SITUATION. MY HOLSTER HAS A RETENTION SYSTEM AND I HAVE HAD MORE TRAINING THATN THE AVERAGE JOE.

    7) Do you conduct yourself in a way (polite, avoiding confrontation) that reduces the possibility that you will become involved in such a situation? YES. SEE QUESTION # 6.

    8) Do you dress well? If you do have to hold someone at gun point, first impressions are important. We all make judgments based on appearance and the arriving officers are more likely going react better to a well dressed individual that someone dressed like a slob or in “gang chic’ even if it is the latest trend in hip clothing. IN MY OPINION, THIS QUESTION IS IRRELEVANT. A PERSON HAS THE RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE REGARDLESS OF HOW HE/SHE IS DRESSED. IF I AM ATTACKED WHILE WEARING PANTS WITH THE ASS HANGING DOWN TO MY KNEES AND A WHITE OVERSIZE TSHIRT AND BANDANA, I HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND MYSELF TO THE SAME EXTENT AS DONALD TRUMP IN HIS $800 SUIT.

    9) What are you going to do if your spouse / kids are with you? Are you going to react differently? Do they know what to do if you do have to react? Do you have a “duck and cover” safe word pre arranged? Do they know to get on the phone if it is safe and tell the police exactly what is happening and know to DESCRIBE YOU IN DETAIL? THIS QUESTION REQUIRES MORE DETAIL. EACH SITUATION WOULD BE DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON THE FACTS.

    10) What is your plan when the police do arrive?
    COMPLY WITH THEIR INSTRUCTIONS AND REQUEST A LAWYER.

    11)
    Most important, are you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY willing to shot someone. Be honest with yourself because no one else knows but you, and you may not even REALLY know until the time comes.
    I'VE DONE IT IN IRAQ AND HAVE BEEN CARRYING FOR A DECADE. YES.



    I am not offering answers to any of these questions and in the interest of brevity (I know, too late) I have left out about twenty other questions that I think should be considered.


    These questions are meant to provoke thought. Please don’t focus on only one and slam me for asking that one question. I am willing to take a hit on the whole, but I think we lose something when we focus on one tree in the forest.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Did someone say Grape vine? Happen to have some personal knowledge.

    There are three simple ways to defeat it - my favorite is the corkscrew.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDYIK...eature=related

    ***** Yata hey
    well it's not meant to be permanent, you just have the person lean back on their hands with their arms locked. It's also not required to use if you don't want to. Just an idea
    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

  22. #22
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    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    Tekshogun, NEVER COOPERATE with the police. ONLY COMPLY with lawful orders.
    Or I can cooperate with lawful orders. They mean the same to me.

    In my book, cooperation does not equal submission, but your point is duly noted.

  23. #23
    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    MY HONEST OPINION

    Istumbled onto this web site while looking for information on open carry. Some of the posts I have read, discussing encounters with LEO's, have sounded antagonistic, and challenging to a police officer. Others were misinformation. I have been told I was guilty of felonies by people on this Web site. I am nor have I ever been guilty of a felony. I have been told that after I have been around OC'ing for a while, I would see where this "US vs THEM" mentality comes from.

    Well, I have had my share of "encounters" with LEO's, not pertaining to OC or guns, but I have learned that if a situation develops you will not gain the upper handby arguing with the LEO. It's called "TACT"... The best thing to do is just comply with the LEO, and later talk to a lawyer, and if your civil rights were violated..... sue the hell out of him.

    Police have a hard job. They have to deal with the public. There are a lot of idiots and ******** out there, you do not need to be one towards the cop

  24. #24
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    1) Are you going to protect just yourself from a deadly threat, or are you going to step in and protect others.
    I am going to primarily protect myself and my family members. Short of a mass murder situation, everyone else is on their own.

    2) What in your mind rises to the level of a deadly threat?
    If the situation has the possibility of serious injury or death.

    3) Have you considered that when you are carrying a gun only, that the only means you have to react to any threat is deadly force, meaning you have no pepper spray, no baton, no TASER; if you decide to engage, its all or nothing.
    I am not restricted to rules governing LEO's. If a bad guy assaults me with a deadly weapon or trys to rob me, you will possibly be shot with my .45. I am not going to risk a less than lethal force tool that may or may not be effective.

    4) Are you going to attempt to perform an arrest of any sort if you see a crime occurring, but no lives are in danger?
    Without the threat of someone getting injured, I would not get involved. Matter of fact, I would retreat from the situation to try to keep as much distance from the bad guy as possible. IF the threat pass without the necessity of using force on my part, I will be a good witness for the police to capture the suspect.If the threat would rise to the level of the necessity of deadly force, no arrest is going to be needed. If force is necessary, the only thing the police are going to have to do is call an ambulance or coroner.

    5) Having decided that you are going to perform a citizen’s arrest, have you considered that you probably do not have any means to restrain this person (handcuffs, flex cuffs, ect.)?
    Read #4, I don't want to play police officer.

    6) Have you considered the fact that if you are carrying a gun and you get into a physical altercation that does not rise to the level of deadly force (some sort of stupid argument about a parking space or something), that you have brought a gun into that situation? Do you practice weapon retention; is your holster adequate, does it have at least one, hopefully two levels of retention that you have practiced with?
    Yes, I have a retention holster. If you let the bad guy get that close, you have already made many mistakes.

    7) Do you conduct yourself in a way (polite, avoiding confrontation) that reduces the possibility that you will become involved in such a situation?
    When carrying a weapon, confrontation should always be avoided.A safe "exit strategy"should be the primary means to leave, ie..retreat if possible to avoid a escalated situation.

    8) Do you dress well? If you do have to hold someone at gun point, first impressions are important. We all make judgments based on appearance and the arriving officers are more likely going react better to a well dressed individual that someone dressed like a slob or in “gang chic’ even if it is the latest trend in hip clothing.
    You should dress as professionally as possible. This keeps the LEO's from making you eat asphalt. If you dress like a gang banger in a wife beater t-shirt, baggy clothes, dark sunglasses, you are going to get a different response from business owners and LEO's. This is just a fact of life.

    9) What are you going to do if your spouse / kids are with you? Are you going to react differently? Do they know what to do if you do have to react? Do you have a “duck and cover” safe word pre arranged? Do they know to get on the phone if it is safe and tell the police exactly what is happening and know to DESCRIBE YOU IN DETAIL?
    If the wife ad kids are with me and confronted by a robber, I would submit to the robbery rather than risk a shootout. That is why I don't carry with them around.

    10) What is your plan when the police do arrive?
    Keep my hands in plain sight away from my waist and move very slowly without argument.

    11) Most important, are you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY willing to shot someone. Be honest with yourself because no one else knows but you, and you may not even REALLY know until the time comes.
    If necessary YES, without any hesitation, once the decision is made. I rather be tried by 12 jurors than carried by 6 of my friends in a casket.

  25. #25
    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    EXACTLY !!!!!!!!!!!!! couldn't have said it better.

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