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Have you really thought this through?

dirtykoala

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
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644
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Grapeshot wrote:
Did someone say Grape vine? Happen to have some personal knowledge. :D

There are three simple ways to defeat it - my favorite is the corkscrew.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDYIKuXYtx8&feature=related

      Yata hey

well it's not meant to be permanent, you just have the person lean back on their hands with their arms locked. It's also not required to use if you don't want to. Just an idea
 

tekshogun

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Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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pullnshoot25 wrote:
Tekshogun, NEVER COOPERATE with the police. ONLY COMPLY with lawful orders.

Or I can cooperate with lawful orders. They mean the same to me.

In my book, cooperation does not equal submission, but your point is duly noted.
 

PincheOgro1

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Perris, Ca., California, USA
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MY HONEST OPINION

Istumbled onto this web site while looking for information on open carry. Some of the posts I have read, discussing encounters with LEO's, have sounded antagonistic, and challenging to a police officer. Others were misinformation. I have been told I was guilty of felonies by people on this Web site. I am nor have I ever been guilty of a felony. I have been told that after I have been around OC'ing for a while, I would see where this "US vs THEM" mentality comes from.

Well, I have had my share of "encounters" with LEO's, not pertaining to OC or guns, but I have learned that if a situation develops you will not gain the upper handby arguing with the LEO. :banghead: It's called "TACT"... The best thing to do is just comply with the LEO, and later talk to a lawyer, and if your civil rights were violated..... sue the hell out of him.

Police have a hard job. They have to deal with the public. There are a lot of idiots and assholes out there, you do not need to be one towards the cop
 

oc4ever

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1) Are you going to protect just yourself from a deadly threat, or are you going to step in and protect others.
I am going to primarily protect myself and my family members. Short of a mass murder situation, everyone else is on their own.

2) What in your mind rises to the level of a deadly threat?
If the situation has the possibility of serious injury or death.

3) Have you considered that when you are carrying a gun only, that the only means you have to react to any threat is deadly force, meaning you have no pepper spray, no baton, no TASER; if you decide to engage, its all or nothing.
I am not restricted to rules governing LEO's. If a bad guy assaults me with a deadly weapon or trys to rob me, you will possibly be shot with my .45. I am not going to risk a less than lethal force tool that may or may not be effective.

4) Are you going to attempt to perform an arrest of any sort if you see a crime occurring, but no lives are in danger?
Without the threat of someone getting injured, I would not get involved. Matter of fact, I would retreat from the situation to try to keep as much distance from the bad guy as possible. IF the threat pass without the necessity of using force on my part, I will be a good witness for the police to capture the suspect.If the threat would rise to the level of the necessity of deadly force, no arrest is going to be needed. If force is necessary, the only thing the police are going to have to do is call an ambulance or coroner.

5) Having decided that you are going to perform a citizen’s arrest, have you considered that you probably do not have any means to restrain this person (handcuffs, flex cuffs, ect.)?
Read #4, I don't want to play police officer.

6) Have you considered the fact that if you are carrying a gun and you get into a physical altercation that does not rise to the level of deadly force (some sort of stupid argument about a parking space or something), that you have brought a gun into that situation? Do you practice weapon retention; is your holster adequate, does it have at least one, hopefully two levels of retention that you have practiced with?
Yes, I have a retention holster. If you let the bad guy get that close, you have already made many mistakes.

7) Do you conduct yourself in a way (polite, avoiding confrontation) that reduces the possibility that you will become involved in such a situation?
When carrying a weapon, confrontation should always be avoided.A safe "exit strategy"should be the primary means to leave, ie..retreat if possible to avoid a escalated situation.

8) Do you dress well? If you do have to hold someone at gun point, first impressions are important. We all make judgments based on appearance and the arriving officers are more likely going react better to a well dressed individual that someone dressed like a slob or in “gang chic’ even if it is the latest trend in hip clothing.
You should dress as professionally as possible. This keeps the LEO's from making you eat asphalt. If you dress like a gang banger in a wife beater t-shirt, baggy clothes, dark sunglasses, you are going to get a different response from business owners and LEO's. This is just a fact of life.

9) What are you going to do if your spouse / kids are with you? Are you going to react differently? Do they know what to do if you do have to react? Do you have a “duck and cover” safe word pre arranged? Do they know to get on the phone if it is safe and tell the police exactly what is happening and know to DESCRIBE YOU IN DETAIL?
If the wife ad kids are with me and confronted by a robber, I would submit to the robbery rather than risk a shootout. That is why I don't carry with them around.

10) What is your plan when the police do arrive?
Keep my hands in plain sight away from my waist and move very slowly without argument.

11) Most important, are you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY willing to shot someone. Be honest with yourself because no one else knows but you, and you may not even REALLY know until the time comes.
If necessary YES, without any hesitation, once the decision is made. I rather be tried by 12 jurors than carried by 6 of my friends in a casket.
 

PincheOgro1

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Perris, Ca., California, USA
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I was talking to an Orange County Sheriff (deputy) last night. Open Carry, and a "WHAT IF" scenario. He said that it would be better to be a "GOOD WITNESS", and to not get involved with any kind of detention, or apprehension yourself.

BUT if I saw someone "I knew", or a childgetting assaulted, battered, etc. all bets are off.

THE FIRST BULLET COSTS YA, THE REST ARE FREE !
 

Grapeshot

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Joined
May 21, 2006
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35,317
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Valhalla
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PincheOgro1 wrote:
MY HONEST OPINION

Istumbled onto this web site while looking for information on open carry. Some of the posts I have read, discussing encounters with LEO's, have sounded antagonistic, and challenging to a police officer. Others were misinformation. I have been told I was guilty of felonies by people on this Web site. I am nor have I ever been guilty of a felony. I have been told that after I have been around OC'ing for a while, I would see where this "US vs THEM" mentality comes from.

Well, I have had my share of "encounters" with LEO's, not pertaining to OC or guns, but I have learned that if a situation develops you will not gain the upper handby arguing with the LEO. :banghead: It's called "TACT"... The best thing to do is just comply with the LEO, and later talk to a lawyer, and if your civil rights were violated..... sue the hell out of him.

Police have a hard job. They have to deal with the public. There are a lot of idiots and @#$%s out there, you do not need to be one towards the cop
Understand from where you are coming - both sides of the fence have their fair share of idiots.

OCDO is NOT a LEO bashing site. The line gets pushed sometimes where bad encounters are concerned. Respect should beget respect and you are right in that arguing or trying your case at curbside is not a good approach normally.

I would caution you regarding simply complying with a request or demand - doing so consensually may well cause one to lose the right to complain or sue. Better to state the you do not voluntarily consent but will not do anything to impede the officer. I have even refused when the question/demand was grossly wrong i.e. demand a permit when I was not CCing (Va.) and my driving license when walking - did verbally give my name and address.

The LE community does indeed have a hard job, but they still must operate within the law and hopefully with a courteous, professional attitude. That is a courtesy I can return and will.

They have to deal with the public? That is a "them vs us" attitude if there ever was one. What needs to become a reality is the acknowledgment that we (LEO and non-LEO) both want the same things - communities of legal, law abiding citizens. We all want to go home to our families at night with our person and property intact. We all want what is rightfully ours. We are on the same team.

Yata hey
 

PincheOgro1

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Grapeshot,

I understand what you say. I posted my opinion. You posted anecdotes where the cop was wrong. I realize no one is perfect. The Orange County and Riverside CountySherriff deputies, and one Rancho Mirage "local", I've talked to "knew" about open carry, yet didn't seem to know much about the PC's pertaining to it. Well, I was impressed by a young deputy last night in Blythe. I wanted to see if he could clarify PC 626, and PC626.9. He didn't know, and told me so, he did say to err on the side of more caution. PC626.9 <- this has got to be a nasty little law. I mean 626 alone states "that the school is OPEN (basically during business hours)", yet 626.9 has no such wording. I have been reading PC's and CFL since I bought my gun, and I understand everything so far, yet PC 626 - 626.9, I can't find a clarification to. Also school bus stops. 100 feet. I have one RIGHT BEHIND my house. I've heard about "Theseus" (in here), and what he's going thru. Now I'm pretty much afraid to even walk in my back yard carrying.
 

Grapeshot

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PincheOgro1 wrote:
Grapeshot,

I understand what you say. I posted my opinion. You posted anecdotes where the cop was wrong. I realize no one is perfect. The Orange County and Riverside CountySherriff deputies, and one Rancho Mirage "local", I've talked to "knew" about open carry, yet didn't seem to know much about the PC's pertaining to it. Well, I was impressed by a young deputy last night in Blythe. I wanted to see if he could clarify PC 626, and PC626.9. He didn't know, and told me so, he did say to err on the side of more caution. PC626.9 <- this has got to be a nasty little law. I mean 626 alone states "that the school is OPEN (basically during business hours)", yet 626.9 has no such wording. I have been reading PC's and CFL since I bought my gun, and I understand everything so far, yet PC 626 - 626.9, I can't find a clarification to. Also school bus stops. 100 feet. I have one RIGHT BEHIND my house. I've heard about "Theseus" (in here), and what he's going thru. Now I'm pretty much afraid to even walk in my back yard carrying.
I wasn't quarreling with you or being critical - just making conversational points.

You have a difficult road to travel in California - I do not envy you.

BTW - I do subscribe to good PR with LE agencies and officers.

Yata hey
 

oc4ever

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PincheOgro1 said:

"THE FIRST BULLET COSTS YA, THE REST ARE FREE !"


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I respectfully disagree. The reason for a self defense weapon is to stop the attack immediately. If pointing a gun works, great. I have had to do this several times in my life, and fortunately not go any further. If shooting the bad guy is necessary, so be it. When he goes down and can not harm me, it is over. Playing executioner when he goes down is not in me, I stop shooting as the threat passes. I just only want to stop the threat to me, not kill anyone.. I will sleep just fine without having to play judge-jury and executioner by emptying the clip in him. If the bad guy dies, then he should have picked a different line of work that he was better at. Being a crook is not without risk of death.
 

PincheOgro1

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oc4ever,

The first Bullet costs ya. The rest are free.

I was talking about paperwork, and having to explain WHY you had to draw in the first place. Once you shoot, you have to explain your actions. All the rest of thebullets are really insignificant. Do you understand NOW ??? You do what it takes to stop the assault. I was not talking about "executing" someone. Gawd... LOL
 

Neo Con John

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Feb 7, 2010
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Weed, California, USA
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All are outstanding points Greg, I welcome your insight that you have offered to all who will read your post. I believe that these are question's we should all think about prior to just strapping on a weapon. Thank you again Greg
 

ConsideringOC

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Feb 23, 2009
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51
Location
San Diego, California, USA
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PincheOgro1 wrote:
I was talking to an Orange County Sheriff (deputy) last night. Open Carry, and a "WHAT IF" scenario. He said that it would be better to be a "GOOD WITNESS", and to not get involved with any kind of detention, or apprehension yourself.

BUT if I saw someone "I knew", or a childgetting assaulted, battered, etc. all bets are off.

THE FIRST BULLET COSTS YA, THE REST ARE FREE !

Just keep in mind 417 pc

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/417.html
 

MudCamper

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Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
709
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Sebastopol, California, USA
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PincheOgro1 wrote:
The best thing to do is just comply with the LEO, and later talk to a lawyer, and if your civil rights were violated..... sue the hell out of him.
Just talking to a lawyer can be expensive. And suing is an extreme measure to take, worthy only in gross violations. Again it will be costly and could fail.

As for "just complying", that is a slippery slope. Comply with orders but verbally protest and always assert your rights. Why? This site's motto comes to mind. A right not exercised is a right lost. That goes for the rest of the Bill of Rights, not just the 2nd. People have become far to complacent in these modern times, and too willingly surrender their 4A and 5A rights. That IMO is a dangerous precedent that leads to an authoritarian state, and it needs to be corrected now while we still can correct it peacefully.
 
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