Trying to help out a friend- Cant find a law

imported post

Id have to ask him which he is. But I know it's reserves , or national guard. Either way He got his CPL the beginning of last year and his girlfriend or.. maybe wife?.. just bought him a pretty cool little USP.



He wanted to know if there were any laws in place that prohibited him from conceal/open carrying while on his way to drills, I told him I wasnt positive.. Because when I was enlisted I carried. and the only thing I heard was that I couldnt carry on to a base.. National guard... and reservers do NOT drill on a military base where I live... Just an armory up town.



anyways.. I tried talking him into being on the forum.. But hes paranoid that someone will see and flip out on him..



So if I missed anything - or he has any other issues i'll let him know.

imported post

There is nothing that directly speaks to soldiers carrying a privately owned firearm in either the UCMJ or AR 670-1 while in uniform that I could find. Certainly, it's strongly not recommended. Change into civilian clothes after drill and gear up.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm

http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.usapa.army.mil/pdffiles/r670%5F1.pdf



The only thing I could find is this:

Carrying of Firearms and Use of Force for Law Enforcement and Security Details.

Click to expand...

[align=left]http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r190_14.pdf[/align]
[align=left]See the 5th "Bullet Point" Please note this was meant for Military Police.[/align]

[align=left]o Prohibits the carrying of non-Government owned or issued weapons or ammunition (para 2-6).[/align]

Click to expand...

Chapter 2 - 2 talks about "authority" on who can carry.



Basically it boils down to several things. When you are in military uniform you are on the clock. You are no longer "Citizen Joe or Jane." You are under the control of your superiors. UCMJ action applies to your actions from this point.

1) In uniform you are not "Authorized" to carry - see Chapter 2 - 2.

2) Even if you are military police, you are not authorized to carry a "non-Government owned or issed weapon or ammunition."

Yes, most Reserve and Guard locations are not on a military base so it's not so clear cut.

If you do enter and pass through a gated entrance to a military installation then those rules apply.



IMHO: Don't carry it while in uniform.

And don't go asking for permission. This is clearly a don't ask as you surely don't want to know the answer from your superiors. :?

imported post

oldkim wrote:

And don't go asking for permission. This is clearly a don't ask as you surely don't want to know the answer from your superiors. :?

Click to expand...

What could the answer possibly be? They have no authority to prohibit you from carrying when you are not on duty. As a Reservist/NG, you are not covered by regulation to the same extent as active duty personnel (ie they own you).

imported post

The sticky point is "while in uniform."

Certainly we all agree a reservist or national guard can carry off post (valid CPL) while not in uniform. It basically fallsunder civilian law.

Now, once in uniform one does shed some civil rights - ask anyone that has been through basic training.

Hey, I'm a staunch supporter of the 2A. I also have 13 years Army and mostly reserve. I'm not saying I'm the expert - I'm just the only idiot to jump in and try to answer to the best of my ability.

So to expand on the question of conceal or open carry.

Open carry is totally out. In no way should you even consider this while in uniform. Even though the UCMJ or AR 670-1 does not cover this it can be used against you. Unbecoming and such...

Conceal carry is a tough one. Again I do strongly recommend - NOT.

If you want to have it in your car - sure. Again only for those places that are not military installations (you drive through a security gate, etc).

At the very least - if word got to your commander - I'm sure you will not like the attention they will be giving you. The phrase "shit rolls down" comes to mindand you being on the bottom of it.

I just would not give my chain of command any need to look up a law to UCMJ me - it's simply not worth it (in uniform).

Again, I would say change into civilian clothes and call it good. My $0.02

imported post

Negative...

As long as he isn't carrying on prohibited property (i.e. Federal property or property prohibited by state statute), he can carry concealed.

As far as being in uniform, as stated earlier, there is no AR that prohibits this. However, is there a unit-specific SOP that prohibits carry to/from drill??

Where exactly does he drill?

I have the fortunate circumstance that allows me to carry and park off U.S. Gov't property...and I carry in uniform....concealed.

imported post

Its easy really...

Its completely up to his command if he can carry while in uniform, open or concealed, and they get to set the where, when, why and how.

While in civilian attire, and off base, he has to follow all the same rules as any other civilian. Regardless of his reserve or active status, his command technically has no say in the matter as long as he follows the laws every other citizen has to follow.

He may be looking at double jeopardy through the UCMJ however if he breaks a law.

And to correct a bit of mis-information, the US is a volunteer military only, they don't "own" anyone. :quirky

Anyone serving in the US military can quit at any time, we just have to take our lumps for breaking the contract that we signed. (i.e., paying back bonuses we received or accepting a dishonorable discharge, etc.)

imported post

I let him know what all you guys had to say.. he said he'll continue to CC as he definitely isnt comfortable with OC (even if it was OK'd with hsi command).. His choice.. he'll get used to it.



He lives in napavine.and drills in yakima.

imported post

FMCDH wrote

And to correct a bit of mis-information, the US is a volunteer military only, they don't "own" anyone. :quirky

Anyone serving in the US military can quit at any time, we just have to take our lumps for breaking the contract that we signed. (i.e., paying back bonuses we received or accepting a dishonorable discharge, etc.)

Click to expand...

Ummm......it's volunteer to join....then you are subject to all of the rules and policies set out by the chain of command...with consequences (NJP, criminal). It ain't a flower club.

That's why we give and receive ORDERS not invitations and on duty 24/7....subject to recall at any time.

imported post

SIGguy229 wrote:

FMCDH wrote

And to correct a bit of mis-information, the US is a volunteer military only, they don't "own" anyone. :quirky

Anyone serving in the US military can quit at any time, we just have to take our lumps for breaking the contract that we signed. (i.e., paying back bonuses we received or accepting a dishonorable discharge, etc.)

Click to expand...

Ummm......it's volunteer to join....then you are subject to all of the rules and policies set out by the chain of command...with consequences (NJP, criminal). It ain't a flower club.

That's why we give and receive ORDERS not invitations and on duty 24/7....subject to recall at any time.

Click to expand...

We are talking about two separate issues.

You aretalking about disobeying direct orders in the line of duty. Every job has consequences for disobeying orders/directions. That's nothingspecific to the military. Perhaps, only the way punishment is carried out for not following directions would be specific to the military.

I am talking about requesting a discharge in the middle of your enlistment/service term. Unless your serving in a combat zone, they don't put people in prison for requesting early discharge anymore.

And depending on your job and service,we aresubject to recall 24/7, but I am not "on duty" 24/7. There is a very important distinction between the two.

imported post

Okay heres the legit. answer for anyone else curious. I talked to my old 1st sgt. from when i was in the service.. She was ..and still is actually a thurston co. deputy sheriff. (national guard)



the anser is.



There is NO state,or county code ,rcw, or law that prohibits a national guard, or reservist member from carrying concealed, or OPEN . the national guard is considered to be a 'militia' branch. the reserve army is a direct branch off.ie. US army. - reserves. therefor all members are called 'CITIZEN -soldiers' Not soldiers. not full time, unlees on IDT, or duty orders. If you have a valid CPL and are not convicted of any newly commited crime disabling you to legally carry the weapon in question. you would not be commiting any crime either military, or civilian.



She stated obviously that any NG, or reserve soldier WOULD be subject to any normal laws, just like any other civilian would be. It doesnt matter if you're in starbucks with it . and someone sees it. this was her quote.. " obviously you cant flash the pistol to anyone, as this would be called brandishing, or could even be taken as assult, or intent to commit assult. But if someone were to see the holster, or even the weapon.. and come to you causing a problem you simply say. " - "im national guard/reserve. I am on MY time right now.. Not my commanders, or my units. It's for my protection,and possibly yours." she said that if someone was to require seeing a CPL.. then it would be wise... ( if in uniform) to present it.





hope that helps the confusion.. and like i said.. she is an officer, still..and still a 1st sgt in the guard.





she also..carries everywhere, when she isnt REQUIRED to by work... even in her ACU/BDU's