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Officer.com OC Discusion
- Thread starter T Vance
- Start date
dougwg
Regular Member
imported post
Go smack that hornets nest... :?
Thats just like a LEO coming here and saying OC is stupid.
Go smack that hornets nest... :?
Thats just like a LEO coming here and saying OC is stupid.
PilotPTK
Regular Member
imported post
The only difference that I see is the way that he approached it. For the most part, correctly.
If an LEO came here and said, "I'd like to understand why you openly carry", I don't think we would lay flame down on him.
What stainless said over there was what seemed like an honest request for dialog.
The only difference that I see is the way that he approached it. For the most part, correctly.
If an LEO came here and said, "I'd like to understand why you openly carry", I don't think we would lay flame down on him.
What stainless said over there was what seemed like an honest request for dialog.
zigziggityzoo
Campaign Veteran
imported post
There's only about 3 sane cops on that forum. Jeez.
I'd wager that the ratio is about the same for all cops in this nation.
All of them saying either "Only cops should have guns." OR "I'm all for CCW with training."
I wonder if any of them have read the constitution, aka the main tenet of law they're supposed to be upholding and enforcing.
There's only about 3 sane cops on that forum. Jeez.
I'd wager that the ratio is about the same for all cops in this nation.
All of them saying either "Only cops should have guns." OR "I'm all for CCW with training."
I wonder if any of them have read the constitution, aka the main tenet of law they're supposed to be upholding and enforcing.
T Vance
Regular Member
imported post
What's kind of intersting is he wrote "I want to be clear about two things. First, I did not come here to start trouble. And second, I am NOT one of those exhibitionists you see on the news toting an AR-15 just because I can" and it was posted 2 days before Kimberguy OCed the AR to Ponderosa.
What's kind of intersting is he wrote "I want to be clear about two things. First, I did not come here to start trouble. And second, I am NOT one of those exhibitionists you see on the news toting an AR-15 just because I can" and it was posted 2 days before Kimberguy OCed the AR to Ponderosa.
ghostrider
Regular Member
imported post
Do not assume that all the people on that board who claim to be cops, are in fact cops. That board has a reputation as being full of people what are not what they claim to be. I don't know that it's true or not, but with the lack of professionalism that I've seen displayed there (much like some of the sand box stuff that's been on these boards lately), then it wouldn't surprise me.
Do not assume that all the people on that board who claim to be cops, are in fact cops. That board has a reputation as being full of people what are not what they claim to be. I don't know that it's true or not, but with the lack of professionalism that I've seen displayed there (much like some of the sand box stuff that's been on these boards lately), then it wouldn't surprise me.
T Vance
Regular Member
imported post
Probably have alot security guards that work at malls on that forum too throwing in their 2 cents.
Probably have alot security guards that work at malls on that forum too throwing in their 2 cents.
manicdevery
Regular Member
imported post
Hitler didn't want citizens to have guns either. and i OC because i do not want to be a target. the people that say OC makes you a target . . . well, we all know about those people. . .
Devery
Hitler didn't want citizens to have guns either. and i OC because i do not want to be a target. the people that say OC makes you a target . . . well, we all know about those people. . .
Devery
stainless1911
Banned
imported post
Turned out to be an interesting discussion. Some of the LEO comments were, well, scary. But last I checked, the poll was to our favor. But barely. I support the right to OC/ AR, but the time isnt right yet.
Turned out to be an interesting discussion. Some of the LEO comments were, well, scary. But last I checked, the poll was to our favor. But barely. I support the right to OC/ AR, but the time isnt right yet.
Haman J.T.
New member
imported post
What amazes me is when the statement that they do what they do in order to go home to loved ones is made.Those who make that statement do not consider that OCer's feel the same way as they walk around in public where the criminals are everywhere,with their illegaly carried concealed guns.Anyone must know when we OC or CC,we must also consider everyone as being armed and be allert,always,as we are armed for the purpose of defending ourselves and our fellow citizens.Another statement is that we do not consider injuring innocent bystanders if we should have to defend ourselves in a crowded,public place.We are just as concerned as they are in those instances,as we would never want anything like that to happen,ever!It's true they have to go where the criminals are,but we have to walk among them just the same when we leave home.I recall the crimes that happen in my vacinity starting with robberiesat the dollar store and gas station I go to 1 block away,a man being car jacked by knife 100 yards from there,a man and woman and their little boy being abducted 2 blocks away,the man was executed,a teen age boy killing a teen age girl a quarter mile down the block,a woman who works 1 mile south found murdered 2 miles north of us,a police officer murdered while he satin his car 2 miles north of here,2 men robbed a home 2 miles east of here headed in this direction,robbed a man standing by his truck,talking on his cell in his driveway and taking his truck and crashing his truck at an intersection 1 mile north of here.Thats all within a small area where me and my wife live.The criminals are all around us,concealing their arms.So I have no problem OCing or CCing at all times and I'm working to let my fellow citizens know that those who OC are the folks they want around just as they would want a LEO who OC's around ,if their lives are being threatened.Thats what LEO's need to understand about us,we are no different than they are when it comes to our lives and the lives of our fellow citizens.We are our brothers keeper even though we do not get payed for it as a carreer.There's no difference whatsoever! God Bless!
What amazes me is when the statement that they do what they do in order to go home to loved ones is made.Those who make that statement do not consider that OCer's feel the same way as they walk around in public where the criminals are everywhere,with their illegaly carried concealed guns.Anyone must know when we OC or CC,we must also consider everyone as being armed and be allert,always,as we are armed for the purpose of defending ourselves and our fellow citizens.Another statement is that we do not consider injuring innocent bystanders if we should have to defend ourselves in a crowded,public place.We are just as concerned as they are in those instances,as we would never want anything like that to happen,ever!It's true they have to go where the criminals are,but we have to walk among them just the same when we leave home.I recall the crimes that happen in my vacinity starting with robberiesat the dollar store and gas station I go to 1 block away,a man being car jacked by knife 100 yards from there,a man and woman and their little boy being abducted 2 blocks away,the man was executed,a teen age boy killing a teen age girl a quarter mile down the block,a woman who works 1 mile south found murdered 2 miles north of us,a police officer murdered while he satin his car 2 miles north of here,2 men robbed a home 2 miles east of here headed in this direction,robbed a man standing by his truck,talking on his cell in his driveway and taking his truck and crashing his truck at an intersection 1 mile north of here.Thats all within a small area where me and my wife live.The criminals are all around us,concealing their arms.So I have no problem OCing or CCing at all times and I'm working to let my fellow citizens know that those who OC are the folks they want around just as they would want a LEO who OC's around ,if their lives are being threatened.Thats what LEO's need to understand about us,we are no different than they are when it comes to our lives and the lives of our fellow citizens.We are our brothers keeper even though we do not get payed for it as a carreer.There's no difference whatsoever! God Bless!
180gr.HP
New member
imported post
I've been lurking and reading most of the posts here and I have finally found something I have to rant about...please bear with me as this is my first post..but this has really stirred something up!
I spent the past hour and a half reading that other forum and I absolutely CANNOT believe the attitudes some of those LEOs have!!
Just because they personally don't like and/or approve/support OC does NOT mean they can create a situation and intimidate with their badge. So they don't like it, they don't have to. Sorry, a right is a right, if it bothers them that much they should find a different line of work. They want to be safe and go home to their families after their shift...well damn..SO DO I!! They aren't the only ones that want that!
One LEO even said something to the effect that he notices each and every firearm that comes near him..often times ones that are concealed. Really? LEOs are issued x-ray glasses now? The same poster said that if a subject is armed and he has to make contact, he will disarm them if he doesn't know them personally. Another case of 'it's not who you know, it's who you..you get the idea. It wouldn't happen in THIS state, pal. Disarm me without VERY reasonable cause and I'll be looking at the next person mucking out the horse stalls.
There was something said that one can OC an UNLOADED firearm...WTH good is that?! A BG is coming at me with a knife..what..do I say, "Wait! Let me get my magazine.." Really? Nope. Don't ever see THAT happening. Full mag with one in the tube, thank you.
LEOs have a difficult, stressful job no doubt and I am glad they are out there serving the public. But they should know that not everyone that OCs is a suspect of a crime. They can carry because it's their JOB...I can carry because it's my RIGHT. I don't see why that is so difficult to understand. So it isn't a "popular" thing, so some (LEOs) personally don't like it, so some of the general population don't like it, there is nothing that can be done about that, but it's the law. There are just some people that stand firm on their beliefs, feelings or whatever and they have that right to do so, but because of that, who are they to impress on me their beliefs? Am I going to flaunt my sidearm any chance I get? No, that isn't the idea. Am I going to force my beliefs for OCing on those that oppose it? No, again, that isn't the idea. I'm just going to go about my business and expect them to go about theirs. If they choose to defend themselves with a baseball bat, golf club, Chihuahua, crowbar or whatever, fine...they can. Like them, I have a choice. They chose their way, I chose mine.
If a LEO notices a person walking down the street carrying a bat and there is no field for miles..will he stop him and ask what his intentions are? Extremely doubtful. Why not? A bat can kill, right? If someone is OCing a firearm, the majority of the time a stop is made. Again, why? The only difference is, there is a LAW that supports lawful carrying of a firearm. Someone with a bat..no law against it, carry on. Crowbar..must be changing a tire, carry on. Golf club..odd, but no law against it..carry on. Sidearm...law FOR it..better check it out. Unreal...I'm a suspect before they even get out of the car.
Gents, sorry for the rant. I just couldn't believe what I was reading on the other forum. Again, I am very glad that there are LEOs on the streets and very appreciative of all they do. It is the few that let their personal feelings about OCing get in the way of a non-LEOs right to OC if they so desire when the law is on their side.
I really enjoy this forum and plan on being more active now that I have broken the ice! Keep up the good work!
180
I've been lurking and reading most of the posts here and I have finally found something I have to rant about...please bear with me as this is my first post..but this has really stirred something up!
I spent the past hour and a half reading that other forum and I absolutely CANNOT believe the attitudes some of those LEOs have!!
Just because they personally don't like and/or approve/support OC does NOT mean they can create a situation and intimidate with their badge. So they don't like it, they don't have to. Sorry, a right is a right, if it bothers them that much they should find a different line of work. They want to be safe and go home to their families after their shift...well damn..SO DO I!! They aren't the only ones that want that!
One LEO even said something to the effect that he notices each and every firearm that comes near him..often times ones that are concealed. Really? LEOs are issued x-ray glasses now? The same poster said that if a subject is armed and he has to make contact, he will disarm them if he doesn't know them personally. Another case of 'it's not who you know, it's who you..you get the idea. It wouldn't happen in THIS state, pal. Disarm me without VERY reasonable cause and I'll be looking at the next person mucking out the horse stalls.
There was something said that one can OC an UNLOADED firearm...WTH good is that?! A BG is coming at me with a knife..what..do I say, "Wait! Let me get my magazine.." Really? Nope. Don't ever see THAT happening. Full mag with one in the tube, thank you.
LEOs have a difficult, stressful job no doubt and I am glad they are out there serving the public. But they should know that not everyone that OCs is a suspect of a crime. They can carry because it's their JOB...I can carry because it's my RIGHT. I don't see why that is so difficult to understand. So it isn't a "popular" thing, so some (LEOs) personally don't like it, so some of the general population don't like it, there is nothing that can be done about that, but it's the law. There are just some people that stand firm on their beliefs, feelings or whatever and they have that right to do so, but because of that, who are they to impress on me their beliefs? Am I going to flaunt my sidearm any chance I get? No, that isn't the idea. Am I going to force my beliefs for OCing on those that oppose it? No, again, that isn't the idea. I'm just going to go about my business and expect them to go about theirs. If they choose to defend themselves with a baseball bat, golf club, Chihuahua, crowbar or whatever, fine...they can. Like them, I have a choice. They chose their way, I chose mine.
If a LEO notices a person walking down the street carrying a bat and there is no field for miles..will he stop him and ask what his intentions are? Extremely doubtful. Why not? A bat can kill, right? If someone is OCing a firearm, the majority of the time a stop is made. Again, why? The only difference is, there is a LAW that supports lawful carrying of a firearm. Someone with a bat..no law against it, carry on. Crowbar..must be changing a tire, carry on. Golf club..odd, but no law against it..carry on. Sidearm...law FOR it..better check it out. Unreal...I'm a suspect before they even get out of the car.
Gents, sorry for the rant. I just couldn't believe what I was reading on the other forum. Again, I am very glad that there are LEOs on the streets and very appreciative of all they do. It is the few that let their personal feelings about OCing get in the way of a non-LEOs right to OC if they so desire when the law is on their side.
I really enjoy this forum and plan on being more active now that I have broken the ice! Keep up the good work!
180
ghostrider
Regular Member
imported post
180gr.HP wrote:
Some things that should be addressed in your post.
1) Keep in mind that that is an internet forum, which means it's possible some of the people on that board may well be posting under false pretenses. IOW, some of them may well not be cops even though they may well claim to be cops.
2) The comment about unloaded OC (UOC) is a California concept. That is the only way they can carry there.
180gr.HP wrote:
Welcome to the forum.
Some things that should be addressed in your post.
1) Keep in mind that that is an internet forum, which means it's possible some of the people on that board may well be posting under false pretenses. IOW, some of them may well not be cops even though they may well claim to be cops.
2) The comment about unloaded OC (UOC) is a California concept. That is the only way they can carry there.
Haman J.T.
New member
imported post
There are LEO's on that forum that expound those elitest attitudes as a fact,along with those who aren't LEO's.I've had officers tell me to call the station before I OC,that they believed in my 2A rights"BUT there's a place and a time for that and walking down the street in the middle of the day isn't one of them,that they will draw on you and violate your 4A rights if you do"!The majority of LEO's by far are fantastic people,but they are a microcosm of the general public,that has it's bad apples,and some units are lead by their CO's who are bad apples, for allowing their LEO's to practice their unproffessional and illegal actions.Thats sad when they break that trust with their employers(the people) and the OC & CC groups who are fighting the same battle for the lives,security and freedoms of THE PEOPLE who employ them.I have the hope(earnest expectancy)that they will come to understand these truths that are self evident and join the majority of the LEO's I know,who are proffessional and understanding of the lives of others! God Bless the U.S.!
Welcome 180grHP!
There are LEO's on that forum that expound those elitest attitudes as a fact,along with those who aren't LEO's.I've had officers tell me to call the station before I OC,that they believed in my 2A rights"BUT there's a place and a time for that and walking down the street in the middle of the day isn't one of them,that they will draw on you and violate your 4A rights if you do"!The majority of LEO's by far are fantastic people,but they are a microcosm of the general public,that has it's bad apples,and some units are lead by their CO's who are bad apples, for allowing their LEO's to practice their unproffessional and illegal actions.Thats sad when they break that trust with their employers(the people) and the OC & CC groups who are fighting the same battle for the lives,security and freedoms of THE PEOPLE who employ them.I have the hope(earnest expectancy)that they will come to understand these truths that are self evident and join the majority of the LEO's I know,who are proffessional and understanding of the lives of others! God Bless the U.S.!
Welcome 180grHP!
180gr.HP
New member
imported post
Gentlemen, thank you for your warm welcomes!
I agree that the ones that have those kinds of attitudes are but a fraction to those that support proper, legal ownership/carrying of a firearm and also, being that this is the internet, anyone can come across as anything they want to. It is just sad to know that there are those legit LEOs that do have the opinions and beliefs that they should be the only ones allowed to carry a firearm and anyone else is either a suspect or a nut case. Their attitude reflects the impression of 'I have a badge and I know the law better than you'.
My apologies for what may have come across as a negative attitude towards LEOs in general, that was not my intention at all and definitely not my true feelings.
The initial attitude that I had in my first post stemmed from an incident I had the other day. I sometimes go to pawn shops and look at their long arms. I was in one and was talking to the owner, while I was OCing. He had said that his place was robbed about a week ago and I asked if he carried a sidearm. I have found that the majority of pawn shop owners do. He said he doesn't, but after the recent occurrence, he is now going to. He inquired about my sidearm, a Glock 22 and what the CPL class was like. I told him about the course and also included that, in Michigan, one can carry a firearm openly. Right after I said that I heard another voice say in a rather arrogantly, "Only if you have a CPL." The owner nodded in the other mans direction and said "He's a deputy sheriff." My response was "Oh, so he knows then that under MCL 750.227, which is Michigan's law on concealed carry, that it nor any other law does NOT state anything about prohibiting open carry." Needless to say the look on the 'sheriff's' face was priceless. It was almost like 'how dare you know more than me!' Well, if you're a mechanic, it doesn't mean you know EVERYTHING about a vehicle, if you can play the violin it doesn't make you a virtuoso. It is a bit of a stretch to think that LEOs should know all of the laws they are sworn to enforce, but a few think they actually do and seem to get an attitude if someone knows one specific law better than they do.
It's all about education. Before I OCd I spent about a week and a half going over all applicable laws, regulations, rules, where-ands and what-fors so I knew exactly what I was doing and the legalities of how I was going to do it. I know what my rights are, it's just depressing that some LEOs don't, they want me to follow 'their' laws, not the one's on paper in Lansing.
For what it's worth, I am an NRA member, I do have a CPL and I do OC from time to time. Like others have said, just because I CAN OC, I don't use that to be blatant about it. I use my own judgment as to where and when I do and find no fault in anyone that wishes to OC where ever and when ever they wish.
Again, thanks for the welcomes and I hope to have more conversations in the future!
180
Gentlemen, thank you for your warm welcomes!
I agree that the ones that have those kinds of attitudes are but a fraction to those that support proper, legal ownership/carrying of a firearm and also, being that this is the internet, anyone can come across as anything they want to. It is just sad to know that there are those legit LEOs that do have the opinions and beliefs that they should be the only ones allowed to carry a firearm and anyone else is either a suspect or a nut case. Their attitude reflects the impression of 'I have a badge and I know the law better than you'.
My apologies for what may have come across as a negative attitude towards LEOs in general, that was not my intention at all and definitely not my true feelings.
The initial attitude that I had in my first post stemmed from an incident I had the other day. I sometimes go to pawn shops and look at their long arms. I was in one and was talking to the owner, while I was OCing. He had said that his place was robbed about a week ago and I asked if he carried a sidearm. I have found that the majority of pawn shop owners do. He said he doesn't, but after the recent occurrence, he is now going to. He inquired about my sidearm, a Glock 22 and what the CPL class was like. I told him about the course and also included that, in Michigan, one can carry a firearm openly. Right after I said that I heard another voice say in a rather arrogantly, "Only if you have a CPL." The owner nodded in the other mans direction and said "He's a deputy sheriff." My response was "Oh, so he knows then that under MCL 750.227, which is Michigan's law on concealed carry, that it nor any other law does NOT state anything about prohibiting open carry." Needless to say the look on the 'sheriff's' face was priceless. It was almost like 'how dare you know more than me!' Well, if you're a mechanic, it doesn't mean you know EVERYTHING about a vehicle, if you can play the violin it doesn't make you a virtuoso. It is a bit of a stretch to think that LEOs should know all of the laws they are sworn to enforce, but a few think they actually do and seem to get an attitude if someone knows one specific law better than they do.
It's all about education. Before I OCd I spent about a week and a half going over all applicable laws, regulations, rules, where-ands and what-fors so I knew exactly what I was doing and the legalities of how I was going to do it. I know what my rights are, it's just depressing that some LEOs don't, they want me to follow 'their' laws, not the one's on paper in Lansing.
For what it's worth, I am an NRA member, I do have a CPL and I do OC from time to time. Like others have said, just because I CAN OC, I don't use that to be blatant about it. I use my own judgment as to where and when I do and find no fault in anyone that wishes to OC where ever and when ever they wish.
Again, thanks for the welcomes and I hope to have more conversations in the future!
180
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
imported post
180gr.HP wrote:
(Not contradicting. Just using it as a jumping off point to elaborate further.)
LEOs carry primarily for self-defense. Even arresting violent criminals, the firearm is primarily for self-defense.The circumstances where a cop can shoot someone other than in the cop'sown defense are very limited.Google aUS Supreme Court case named, Tennessee vs Garner.
For the moment, I am of the opinion that theremaining reasons a copmay shoot someone basically amount to defense ofothers. Which issomething many citizens are allowed to do, too, as I understand it. From what I can tell,the onlydifference between a cop'sdefense-of-others and acitizen's defense-of-others is that under Garner a cop can shoot a fleeing felon dangerous to the community. I don't know that many or most citizens are legally allowed to do that.
So, thepoint of my post here is that police carry guns for the same reason everybody else does. They are nobodyspecialin that regard.
180gr.HP wrote:
Welcome to OCDO!!
(Not contradicting. Just using it as a jumping off point to elaborate further.)
LEOs carry primarily for self-defense. Even arresting violent criminals, the firearm is primarily for self-defense.The circumstances where a cop can shoot someone other than in the cop'sown defense are very limited.Google aUS Supreme Court case named, Tennessee vs Garner.
For the moment, I am of the opinion that theremaining reasons a copmay shoot someone basically amount to defense ofothers. Which issomething many citizens are allowed to do, too, as I understand it. From what I can tell,the onlydifference between a cop'sdefense-of-others and acitizen's defense-of-others is that under Garner a cop can shoot a fleeing felon dangerous to the community. I don't know that many or most citizens are legally allowed to do that.
So, thepoint of my post here is that police carry guns for the same reason everybody else does. They are nobodyspecialin that regard.
Haman J.T.
New member
imported post
There has been trouble with certain LEO's from a certain city that was educated 1 year prior to violating 2A&4A rights,among other crimes,and this type of attitude needs to be brought to justice in the eye of the public.That would certainly be educational to the citizens who do not know they have a right and responsibilty to defend themselves 24/7,something the liberal media has been brain washing the masses with for decades," if someone robbs you give them what they want(your money,your chastity,your physical well being,your life)and don't fight back"!How many newscasts have you heard that vomit stated?God Bless and welcome again! Jeff.
There has been trouble with certain LEO's from a certain city that was educated 1 year prior to violating 2A&4A rights,among other crimes,and this type of attitude needs to be brought to justice in the eye of the public.That would certainly be educational to the citizens who do not know they have a right and responsibilty to defend themselves 24/7,something the liberal media has been brain washing the masses with for decades," if someone robbs you give them what they want(your money,your chastity,your physical well being,your life)and don't fight back"!How many newscasts have you heard that vomit stated?God Bless and welcome again! Jeff.
jeremy05
Regular Member
imported post
You guys have to remember, people who are cops live that life, If you were to name 10 things that describe you, Cop would be their top 3.
Its like they get their job and then find out they are social workers. Also social workers who get paid 40k a year. You have to understand why they are upset 24/7
You guys have to remember, people who are cops live that life, If you were to name 10 things that describe you, Cop would be their top 3.
Its like they get their job and then find out they are social workers. Also social workers who get paid 40k a year. You have to understand why they are upset 24/7
Haman J.T.
New member
imported post
jeremy05 wrote:
jeremy05 wrote:
Being upset is no excuse for violating rights and commiting crimes against citizens.Thats what anti-gunners say about Pro 2A folks,we will get upset and kill someone.When citizens arm themselves for self defense,they shouldn't have to defend themselves from LEO's.Leo's jobs are to be professional at all times,upset or not.
180gr.HP
New member
imported post
hamaneggs wrote:
180
hamaneggs wrote:
I agree. Also may I add that because one is a LEO, that even though you may be upset for one reason or another, you are there in an official capacity. One poster on the other forum said that when he responds to a call and the person is belligerent, argumentative or loud, he will be the same right back. Very professional. My understanding is that if a LEO responds to an already tense situation, it is in everyone's best interest if he calms the situation and now throw gasoline on it.
180
Haman J.T.
New member
imported post
180gr.HP wrote:
180gr.HP wrote:
Thats if he has been trained how to de-escalate situations,which should be 1st in his professional actions.But some may ignore their training and act according to their attitude,which I've seen personaly.Thats not needed to keep peace.