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Israelis Have it right on gun rights

911Boss

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sudden valley gunner wrote:
911Boss wrote:
sudden valley gunner wrote:
If you died in an internment camp because of it being a horrid place you were still killed by those who put you there.

Exactly right. Or should we not blame the Japanese for deaths of all our service members who were mistreated while prisoners and died from disease and malnutrition?

"snip"



Have a little class.
Who was that aimed at? If I gave the impression that I was trying to minimize the atrocities of the descendants of Israel I apologize. That was never my intent.
Not at you. I agreed with your point of whether gassed, shot, or death by disease, the folks who put them in the camp in the first place were responsible.

You "snipped" too much.

Instead of quoting sirpuma's drivel, I started that section with "As to sirpuma's posts..."
 

sirpuma

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911Boss wrote:
Not at you. I agreed with your point of whether gassed, shot, or death by disease, the folks who put them in the camp in the first place were responsible.

You "snipped" too much.

Instead of quoting sirpuma's drivel, I started that section with "As to sirpuma's posts..."
Drivel, is it? And what was drivel?

I simply said the number of 6 Million is an over statement. And that there are atrocities everywhere and that it's up to each person to defend themselves. Since you are so closed minded and refuse to look up the history for yourself, here's some useful links.

http://warofillusions.wordpress.com...jews-killed-at-auschwitz-from-4-to-1-million/

http://www.cephas-library.com/israe...ews in Nazi Occupied Europe Differ Vastly.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXKHw0EZrqM (Part 1 of 7 from a Jewish Revisionist)

That should get you started, or get you fuming. Either way the truth hurts. I don't blame you for not knowing the truth, you were taught wrong.
 

sirpuma

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911Boss wrote:
As to sirpuma's posts...

...

1.
Maybe the Jewish folks are just better at getting support,

2.
I've yet to come across anyone who tries to minimize the Holocaust who isn't also harboring some anti-Semite feelings as well.

3.
I think it is a disservice to any group who suffered such atrocities to somehow try and lessen what happened by saying it happen to others as well or that some other group suffered "more".

4.
Have a little class.
1. Bingo, you hit the nail on the head.

2. If you're going to make an accusation, make it. Frankly I don't care about name callers, I care about TRUTH and accuracy. If speaking the truth about the misrepresentation of the numbers of the prisoners of the various concentration camps makes me an "anti-semite" then so be it. I care about factual data, not bloated guesses.

3. Per your own words you are doing a disservice to all the other groups by only focusing on the Jews plight. I seek to keep things balanced. It is truly a greater disservice to propagate a lie. Besides, I never said anything about my people suffering.

4. Take your own advice.
 

amlevin

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Sirpuma-

Do you consider one of your linked sources to be accurate and unbiased? Stormfront.org has all the earmarks of being a "White Arayan" forum.

As for Auschwitz/Birkenau, that was only ONE extermination "factory". Dachau, Chelmo, Blezec, Majdanek, Sobibor, Treblinka were others. Not named are the huge pits that victims were herded into and shot. We only seem to remember Auschwitz and Dachau as they are the most prominant camps that were preserved. Jews, Non-Jewish Poles, Russians, Gypsies, and anyone else that the "Aryan's" deemed "defective" were also herded into Forests, Cemetary's, and plain old Slaughter Houses to be killed.

Go ahead and accept the revised figure for Auschwitz. Just be sure to include all the rest of the extermination camps and those exterminated by not just the Nazi's but their henchmen as well.

There were so many killed that the world will never know the exact number. The fact remains that a so called civilized country systematically executed vast numbers of their unarmed citizens. THAT is why the "Holocast" is so named.

BTW, a family member of mine was involved in documenting deaths in one camp. The team he was part of could only estimate as there were few bodies other than those that had recently died and had been abandoned by the fleeing Guards.

All of my Father's family members, that remained in Europe before the war stated were victims of this systematic extermination. As far as I am concerned it matters not the actual number. After all, when you pass a million deaths, what's a few more?
 

sirpuma

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You and that other guy just love the term "extermination factory". First, they didn't have gas chambers, second for the ovens that burned the corpses to handle the numbers that are claimed they'd need several hundred thousand metric tons of coke to run them 24/7, 365 and even then they couldn't have burned the number of bodies that is claimed.

While I am familiar with Sormfront and the nuts there, I don't see a single link I provided as being on Stormfront. I also provided a link of what a JEWISH historian saw when he went there. But you will continue to ignore the facts that it wasn't as bad as they claim. You will also minimalism other atrocities to promote this atrocity.

No one has exact numbers, even though the German people have always been notorious data keepers. They recorded everything that went on. But you will have various groups claim bloated numbers and people that have had this version programed into their cells won't bother to try and understand the history or the facts behind HOW it could have all been pulled off. Other things are ignored like the city of Dresden. You will scream how evil the Nazis and Germans were for operating "extermination factories" and murdering "over 6 million Jews", even though it's a lie. Heck, even the Jews in Germany and Israel have disputed those claims. Then when someone comes by and says "excuse me, but some of your data is incorrect", rather than thinking, "hmm, I should look into that", you scream "RACIST" and decry the messenger as an evil anti-semite. You don't consider that so many in the concentration camps that starved, starved because allied forces bombed the rail system into non existence. Or that we completely destroyed another country and gave half of it to the Communists.

Did the Nazi's do some stupid and horrid stuff, sure, war is hell. But the US, UK, Japan and USSR did just as much, if not more.

Before crying about the plight of the Jews during WWII, at least study the plight of other groups and then decide if it's more important than any others. I could sit here and post a thousand links and give you all the info and you would still insist on propping up bad information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II this is about the bombing of Dresden.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/rim1.htm Hitlers peace offers.

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecwar.html Jews declared economic war on Germany prior to the outbreak of WWII.

Shall I keep going? Do yourself a favor, study some history and don't believe EVERYTHING you learned in school.
 

Tawnos

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sirpuma wrote:
You and that other guy just love the term "extermination factory". First, they didn't have gas chambers, second for the ovens that burned the corpses to handle the numbers that are claimed they'd need several hundred thousand metric tons of coke to run them 24/7, 365 and even then they couldn't have burned the number of bodies that is claimed.

While I am familiar with Sormfront and the nuts there, I don't see a single link I provided as being on Stormfront. I also provided a link of what a JEWISH historian saw when he went there. But you will continue to ignore the facts that it wasn't as bad as they claim. You will also minimalism other atrocities to promote this atrocity.

No one has exact numbers, even though the German people have always been notorious data keepers. They recorded everything that went on. But you will have various groups claim bloated numbers and people that have had this version programed into their cells won't bother to try and understand the history or the facts behind HOW it could have all been pulled off. Other things are ignored like the city of Dresden. You will scream how evil the Nazis and Germans were for operating "extermination factories" and murdering "over 6 million Jews", even though it's a lie. Heck, even the Jews in Germany and Israel have disputed those claims. Then when someone comes by and says "excuse me, but some of your data is incorrect", rather than thinking, "hmm, I should look into that", you scream "RACIST" and decry the messenger as an evil anti-semite. You don't consider that so many in the concentration camps that starved, starved because allied forces bombed the rail system into non existence. Or that we completely destroyed another country and gave half of it to the Communists.

Did the Nazi's do some stupid and horrid stuff, sure, war is hell. But the US, UK, Japan and USSR did just as much, if not more.

Before crying about the plight of the Jews during WWII, at least study the plight of other groups and then decide if it's more important than any others. I could sit here and post a thousand links and give you all the info and you would still insist on propping up bad information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II this is about the bombing of Dresden.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/rim1.htm Hitlers peace offers.

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecwar.html Jews declared economic war on Germany prior to the outbreak of WWII.

Shall I keep going? Do yourself a favor, study some history and don't believe EVERYTHING you learned in school.
I've been watching this thread and have to ask: are you kidding me?

Start with sources: Cephas ministry is completely unreliable as a source, and anything they publish is questionable at best. The article you linked to on their site IS from stormfront (look at the bottom for source).

Second, the wordpress link: It's remarkably devoid of references, but even so, what point are you trying to make in stating that the official death toll is 1 million instead of 4 million for a single set of concentration camps? Most scholars have agreed with the ~1.5 million figure for a long time. That does nothing to contest the overall figure of the Holocaust, which is a sum total of not only those murdered or dead in concentration camps, but in ghettos, open air shootings, and other means. Conflating the 6 million number with the estimated number killed in camps (approximately 3.8 million) is a dishonest tactic.

Third, youtube: almost not even worth mentioning. Just because you are of a particular race does not make your revisionism about an atrocity carried out more truthful. Facts and evidence stand despite high-pitched protest to the contrary. Note the video author makes the same fundamental error as you: that the Holocaust refers solely to those murdered in camps. It makes other erroneous claims, but they all are based on the same revisionist tripe I've seen a hundred times before.

Fourth, the link you disingenuously call "Hitler's peace offers": It's a propaganda piece, and is even introduced as such. "The Nazi Party's Central Propaganda Office, the Reichspropagandaleitung, published a monthly bulletin for speakers. It was designed to be kept in notebooks, divided by subject area. This rather lengthy section appeared soon after the outbreak of the war. It gave the view of the war's origins that speakers were to incorporate into their speeches."

Fifth, your post from wintersonnenwende is sourced from the barnes review, a holocaust revisionism and denial, founded by this man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willis_Carto - Again, not exactly a trustworthy source.

You have yet to provide ANYTHING credible to back up your bull. I will call a spade a spade: you harbor anti-semetic feelings and thoughts and (poorly) try to disguise it in the form of critique. You accuse others of propping up bad facts and not being able to investigate it, yet you seem unable to find anything that meets peer-reviewed standards, or incorporates sources that don't blatantly describe themselves as racist. Holocaust denialism stems from the same mental illness that causes people to take up conspiracy theories such as faked moon landings, 9/11 was an inside job, et cetera. If you're going to tell people "not believe everything they learned in school", perhaps you should learn how to critically think and analyze sources, before giving such advice.

The fact remains: between 5 and 7 million Jews, and a total of 11-15 million Jews, gypsies, gays, and other "undesirables" were exterminated by the Nazi regime during the period known as the Holocaust. Over half that number occurred in concentration camps, among which, Auschwitz was the largest.
 

antispam540

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Why are we even on this topic? If you want to believe only a few Jews were killed, then believe only a few Jews were killed. If you want to believe the 6 million figure, then do so. I'm sticking with the majority opinion of 6 million, but I really don't care much either way. It doesn't affect my daily life, and if you're Jewish it shouldn't affect your daily life either.

Make sure it NEVER happens again, but don't let it cripple how you live today. The same with those extremely upset over slavery - it happened, it sucked, but there's nothing I can do about it. There is no widespread slavery of African-Americans in the USA anymore, so why walk around with a chip on your shoulder or get your panties in a twist over it.

Live today, forget yesterday, and make damn sure you get to live tomorrow.
 

sirpuma

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My original point (which was totally lost on everyone here) was that the OP was praising Israel for their "gun rights view". I pointed out that all the pictures you see of people in Israel OCing anything are members of the Police or IDF and that Israeli law is way more restrictive than even the Nazi laws which our own restrictive laws are based on and that in Israel only Israelis are permitted to own and they are restricted to one firearm. But someone's comment suggested that it was ok because super duper millions of them were slaughtered by the evil slaughter machine that is the German people. I responded to say their numbers were a bit high and that there were greater atrocities out there to rant about. Then I was decried as an anti-semite for pointing this out and that I was doing a disservice to the Jews for not believing in all the hype and for pointing out that worse has happened to other people. Then I told people to take a history lesson and others said I was full of it.

Frankly I don't care. I say people need to do their research and look into other events. They act like the only horrid thing to happen was the Holocaust. We need to keep on the tails of our government to keep our rights and we need to exercise our rights to prove to the commies that we truly do need them. Communism is pure evil, just ask the estimated 21 million Russian Orthodox Christians which were martyred in the gulags by the Soviet government, not including torture or other Christian denominations killed. Yet somehow that 21 million is less important that 6 million Jews. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#cite_note-51
 

Squeak

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Well Deros, I guess we stirred up a hornet's nest! How was your day? I had a good time at Starbuck's.
 

amlevin

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tai4de2 wrote:
Wow... guns and good ole' fashun Holocaust denyin' all in one thread! Could opencarry.org possibly get any classier than this?

That's what makes a good heated discussion beneficial. It brings out the true character of many individuals.

Why is it whenever one starts talking about the systematic extermination of Jews, especially during WWII, there is an attempt to divert from the subject by pointing out that genocide has been practiced in the past and even present, all over the world. This is supposed to make the WWII incidents more palatible?

The fact remains that it did happen. Argue over the exact numbers if you wish. It still involved a number that in some cases exceeds the entire population of some small countries. It was conducted by a so-called civilized country, not as a result of tribal conflict as in Rwanda. What's even more interesting is how those that deny the Holocast have such esteemed company. Those that still think the Nazi party will arise again, the leader of Iran, and just about any other whack-job despot that wants more international attention.
 

Dr. Fresh

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sirpuma wrote:
Did the Nazi's do some stupid and horrid stuff, sure, war is hell. But the US, UK, Japan and USSR did just as much, if not more.
I'll give you Japan and the USSR. Stalin's purges and various other atrocities were every bit as bad, and the Japanese treatment of civilians and prisoners of war was absolutely horrid. However, aside from the bombing of Dresden and a series of other, isolated incidents, would you please explain (with sources) just what the US and UK did that was just as bad as what Germany did?
 

DaemonForce

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tai4de2 wrote:
Wow... guns and good ole' fashun Holocaust denyin' all in one thread! Could opencarry.org possibly get any classier than this?
I'm gonna have to pull a Ferris Bueller and say no. :)

amlevin wrote:
What's even more interesting is how those that deny the Holocast have such esteemed company. Those that still think the Nazi party will arise again, the leader of Iran, and just about any other whack-job despot that wants more international attention.
This is the exact reason I stopped watching TV. True story. =/
 

Trigger Dr

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This has been quite interesting. different views of history determined in part by personal feelings, and possibly ethnicity. That being said....IT AINT OC related. Please take it to PM
 

sirpuma

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Dr. Fresh wrote:
sirpuma wrote:
Did the Nazi's do some stupid and horrid stuff, sure, war is hell. But the US, UK, Japan and USSR did just as much, if not more.
I'll give you Japan and the USSR. Stalin's purges and various other atrocities were every bit as bad, and the Japanese treatment of civilians and prisoners of war was absolutely horrid. However, aside from the bombing of Dresden and a series of other, isolated incidents, would you please explain (with sources) just what the US and UK did that was just as bad as what Germany did?
Google is your friend.
 

amlevin

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sirpuma wrote:
Dr. Fresh wrote:
sirpuma wrote:
Did the Nazi's do some stupid and horrid stuff, sure, war is hell. But the US, UK, Japan and USSR did just as much, if not more.
I'll give you Japan and the USSR. Stalin's purges and various other atrocities were every bit as bad, and the Japanese treatment of civilians and prisoners of war was absolutely horrid. However, aside from the bombing of Dresden and a series of other, isolated incidents, would you please explain (with sources) just what the US and UK did that was just as bad as what Germany did?
Google is your friend.
Or your enema
 

KBCraig

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DEROS72 wrote:
This article was sent to me by Squeak.It's pretty self explanitory...

U.S. Soldiers are not allowed to carry guns for personal protection, even on a 340-acre base quartering more than 50,000 troops.
What?

Fort Hood is 340 square miles, not acres (each square mile is 640 acres).
 
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