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Thread: Please critique behavior of open carrier stop by police VIDEO

  1. #1
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    I think I handled the situation well. What should I change the next time I'm confronted?

    Video


    Part 1

    Part 2

    Part 3



    Audio complaints


    first complaint



    griffith complaint part 1

    grifith complaint part 2

    griffith complaint part 3











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    Hi - I watched the videos and listened to the first complaint. The website started crashing my browser after that so I couldn't listen to the other ones.

    I'd like to first say that I support what you did here if it was in protest of restrictive open carry laws. I know a lot of folks here think you're out to just get attention, and maybe that's the case, but in this instance it looks like the town has a particularly unreasonable open carry law and I think it's right to challenge it.

    In the video I thought that you were answering too many questions about the firearm. The female officer was obviously fishing for some sort of officer endangerment charge. I wouldn't have answered any questions asked by her, I would have simply reitterated that the firearm was loaded and could be dangerous if handled improperly.

    I also felt that the male officer was really just trying to do his job, although he was wrong, I didn't feel that he was "out to get you" or any such. The female officer, however, was complaining out the door that she couldn't ticket you. In that instance I think it would have made the stop go a little smoother if you'd been slightly less confrontational with the male officer.

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    I watched all 3

    Holy Sh$# bro

    That was 1 of the best things I've ever seen in my entire life. Straight up just carried it in your hand down the street. I love the part where you start walking away, in the end, with it in your hand. 3 seconds later- Am I free to go? And you walk away.

    Nuts.

    Thanks for that it was awesome and you did a great job.

    And yeah to critique the event- I think you talked way to much. Knowing the exact statue and repeating it, though, was awesome on your part.

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    I watched the videos, and wow. I don't quite know what to think. You, sir, have some brass balls.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    CarryOpen, I agree on all accounts.

    I'm not familiar w/ TN laws at all. So you are BARRED from carrying IN A HOLSTER?

    I mean, I support all carry rights, even loaded EBR's, but loaded handguns, in hands, is something I'd personally rather not see and I'm not ashamed to say that I'd go into Orange Alert and either Bug Out (preferably) or confront anyone who is carrying like that.

    All that being said, IF that's your only allowable mode of carry, Right On Brother!

    Please clarify if you will.

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    ufcfanvt wrote:
    CarryOpen, I agree on all accounts.

    I'm not familiar w/ TN laws at all. So you are BARRED from carrying IN A HOLSTER?

    I mean, I support all carry rights, even loaded EBR's, but loaded handguns, in hands, is something I'd personally rather not see and I'm not ashamed to say that I'd go into Orange Alert and either Bug Out (preferably) or confront anyone who is carrying like that.

    All that being said, IF that's your only allowable mode of carry, Right On Brother!

    Please clarify if you will.
    I agree 100%. Openly carrying a loaded handgun in your hand, outside of a holster regardless of reason (with the exception of being actively engaged in self defense)
    is one of the most foolish things I have ever seen/heard.

    ~~Springfield

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    ufcfanvt wrote:
    CarryOpen, I agree on all accounts.

    I'm not familiar w/ TN laws at all. So you are BARRED from carrying IN A HOLSTER?

    I mean, I support all carry rights, even loaded EBR's, but loaded handguns, in hands, is something I'd personally rather not see and I'm not ashamed to say that I'd go into Orange Alert and either Bug Out (preferably) or confront anyone who is carrying like that.

    All that being said, IF that's your only allowable mode of carry, Right On Brother!

    Please clarify if you will.
    What kwik doesn't tell you is that Belle Meade does not enforce that old 1870-ish ordinance. The BMPD goes by TN state laws.

    Had he taken his walk with his pistol holstered, there probably wouldn't have been any MWAG calls made.

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    ufcfanvt wrote:
    CarryOpen, I agree on all accounts.

    I'm not familiar w/ TN laws at all. So you are BARRED from carrying IN A HOLSTER?

    I mean, I support all carry rights, even loaded EBR's, but loaded handguns, in hands, is something I'd personally rather not see and I'm not ashamed to say that I'd go into Orange Alert and either Bug Out (preferably) or confront anyone who is carrying like that.

    All that being said, IF that's your only allowable mode of carry, Right On Brother!

    Please clarify if you will.
    I didn't want this thread to be a discussion about the means of carry. I just wanted to get a critique of how the detainment was handled.

    Yes, the ONLY legal manner to carry in that City is to carry an army or navy pistol openly in the hand. The section regarding weapons was last updated in 1987. So, about 23 years ago the City, and the residents choose to allow carry in that manner.

    If anyone wants to comment aboutthe legalitylook up the thread in the Tennessee section.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    While I will commend you for being able to recite the laws I don't think fishing for lawsuits helps the OC cause.

    If you dislike the anti-holstered law work to get it off the books and maybe stage a demonstration to emphasize the issue. We can confront bad laws but if that was your purpose what letters/contact have you had with those who could change the laws?

    IMHO someone walking down my street with a unholstered pistol is going to get my attention and maybe a call to the police. While not technically brandishing any person not engaged in an act of self defense is foolish to have it unholstered and is possiblyendangering everyone within shooting distance (including through walls etc).


    Edited to add: As far as critique of your incident, you were free to go which is a heck of alot better than a ride to the pokey for the night!

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    45acpForMe wrote:
    While I will commend you for being able to recite the laws I don't think fishing for lawsuits helps the OC cause.

    If you dislike the anti-holstered law work to get it off the books and maybe stage a demonstration to emphasize the issue. We can confront bad laws but if that was your purpose what letters/contact have you had with those who could change the laws?

    IMHO someone walking down my street with a unholstered pistol is going to get my attention and maybe a call to the police. While not technically brandishing any person not engaged in an act of self defense is foolish to have it unholstered and is possiblyendangering everyone within shooting distance (including through walls etc).


    Edited to add: As far as critique of your incident, you were free to go which is a heck of alot better than a ride to the pokey for the night!
    I suggested to kwik to petition the City of Belle Meade to change the ordinacne before he went to town paking his pistol "in hand." He's not interested in changing laws, he went trolling for a lawsuit.

    What I find curious is if kwik is so sure he's right about the laws, why didn't he leave his HCP at home when he went for his stroll? He seems to think that OC without it is legal in Belle Beade.

    BTW, when I asked him if the officers asked to see his permit; and did he tell the officer he didn't need a permit (failed to present), before they searched him. He clammed up and wouldn't answer.

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    Personally, very stupid. That being said, the police officer is stupid to argue, about the civil war, among other things.

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    Came off too argumentative. It looked, and was called, exactly what it was....a "confrontation".

    While almost flawless as far as "technical" knowledge, (You had the statutes for both city and state guidelines down) I believe simply stating "I do not consent to a search" and "I do not consent to being detained" could have been done in a "friendlier" manner.

    I like how whenever you start reciting the ordinance, the male cop tries to drown you out. It just confirms he has no clue as to what ordinance you are violating, but he sure knows you're wrong. How, he doesn't know. What ordinance, he doesn't know. You just are. Then you repeat the ordinance allowing you to do so, and he tries to talk over you again.

    You could have asked him exactly what RAS he had to stop you and if he said "Well, you're carrying a damned gun!"ask him again how he has the right to stop folks for lawful acts. I would have pointed at the female officer and asked, "She's got a gun. Aren't you gonna stick your hands in her pockets or interrogate her?"

    In reality, I probably wouldn't have. I wouldn't have been in"confrontation" mode to begin with. In "confrontation mode", things have a tendency to "escalate". (I'm not talking about physical escalation. I mean mental.) Whenpeople react indignantly,they have a tendency to makethemselves angrier thanthey already are. When that happens, they start to act angrier, which makes others react in a more confrontational manner, which angers the person more.....and "snowball!" it can just get ugly. Vicious circle.

    I like your technical approach and the focus on your legality. You've got the "Am I being detained?" and "Am I free to go?" down. I think you would be better off carrying yourself in a more "informational" attitude instead of a "confrontational" attitude. Try: "I'm just here to exercise my rights, sir. What I'm doing is perfectly legal. If you don't think so, I'd appreciate you showing me the statute you think I'm violating."

    Try more honey, less vinegar.

    Just my 2 cent "critique".

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    I suggested to kwik to petition the City of Belle Meade to change the ordinacne before he went to town paking his pistol "in hand." He's not interested in changing laws, he went trolling for a lawsuit.

    What I find curious is if kwik is so sure he's right about the laws, why didn't he leave his HCP at home when he went for his stroll? He seems to think that OC without it is legal in Belle Beade.

    BTW, when I asked him if the officers asked to see his permit; and did he tell the officer he didn't need a permit (failed to present), before they searched him. He clammed up and wouldn't answer.
    Not sure why you feel the need. I didn't show my permit. I told them where it was and that I did not consent to a search. I carry my permit because in the city of Forest Hills and in Williamson County I need to carry my permit. That evening I did walk in the City of Forest Hills. Belle Meade has no requirement for a permit. I'll refer you to TCA 39-17-1314(a). Like I said in the other thread if you choose to ignore TCA39-17-14134(a) there is nothing more to say. If you'd like to continue the discussion into the legality of carry I'll do so in the other thread once you understand the law.



    To everyone else. After watching the video a few times I think I am going to start the silent treatment. The cops weren't listening anyway. However, I think that talking did some good. I got the cop to admit to having been to federal court twice. That maybe something to look into maybe I can get a look at his personnel file through a public records inquiry. He also admited to an interior pocket search which he would not have done if I hadn't spoke up.

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    There's a saying for the 1st Amendment- Popular speech Never needs protection..
    The same applies to 2nd Amendment- Popular carry methods don't need protection.. I get it.. He's got it in his hand.. Not in a holster or other medium of carry. I got that. It's not a popular method of carry. The argument over your method of open carry is obsolete as we have All already agreed that we support your Right To Do So even if we don't support the act itself.

    Comments about fishing or jogging for a lawsuit.. You had a highly reflective vest on, because you were on foot, going somewhere. I see you weren't looking for a fight. It's not as if you planned to do some laps from city to city until you were stopped. Get a grip people. He walked somewhere.

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    A little too confrontational for my liking. Them complaints from the woman to me

    were laughable, what happened, what did he do? No of your d___ business lady.

    He wasn't shooting anybody, so what? I know she's been brainwashed and all, and

    her talking about explaining to her kids so they don't get scared, my gosh, call the

    waaaaambulance everybody! lol. The part i would have liked a cop to ask me where

    i got my law degree, probably the same place the police officer got his or hers.

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    I suggested to kwik to petition the City of Belle Meade to change the ordinacne before he went to town paking his pistol "in hand." He's not interested in changing laws, he went trolling for a lawsuit.
    Well that boils it down. Ok, rather than guessing kwik's intent lets just ask him.

    Kwik, other than going for a walk did you have any intent to bring attention to a bad law or were you trolling for a lawsuit? If your intent was to bring attention to the bad law we could suggest other avenues to try "first" and if they didn't work other more coordinated efforts could be applied. If you were trolling for a lawsuit, you defended yourself too well I guess or the cops weren't biting.

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    I find it very boorish that certain individuals felt the need to follow the OP to the general discussion forum to drive home a point of view they have already expressed ad nauseum.

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    kwikrnu wrote:
    Not sure why you feel the need. I didn't show my permit. I told them where it was and that I did not consent to a search. I carry my permit because in the city of Forest Hills and in Williamson County I need to carry my permit. That evening I did walk in the City of Forest Hills. Belle Meade has no requirement for a permit. I'll refer you to TCA 39-17-1314(a). Like I said in the other thread if you choose to ignore TCA39-17-14134(a) there is nothing more to say. If you'd like to continue the discussion into the legality of carry I'll do so in the other thread once you understand the law.

    So, you didn'tpresent your permit on demand. That's a violation 39-17-1351(n)(1)
    (n) (1) Except as provided in subdivision (n)(2), a permit issued pursuant to this section shall be good for four (4) years and shall entitle the permit holder to carry any handgun or handguns that the permit holder legally owns or possesses. The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer
    I would think that if a personfails to "present" a HCP while carrying a handgun, that would be RAS for a physical search of that person.

    Presenting a HCP would mean you take it out of you pocket/wallet and hand it to teh officer, much like you would "present" your DL in a traffic stop.

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    OK - I read 1351, 1314 and Belle Meade 11-602. I don't see anything that would exempt you from the presentation requirement. I'm not from TN, can you show me what I'm missing?

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    WELL DONE !! you can't be nice, when the cops are idiots.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    kwikrnu wrote:
    I think I handled the situation well. What should I change the next time I'm confronted?

    Video


    Part 1

    Part 2

    Part 3



    Audio complaints


    first complaint



    griffith complaint part 1

    grifith complaint part 2

    griffith complaint part 3






    Video Part 1--not much happened here until almost the end. I did gather that you were walking along the side of the road with a handgun of some sort of gun in your hand. That strikes me as extremist behavior.

    Video Part 2--You were clear about your objections. They apparently knew who you were. You were also a bit nervous, as evidenced by the rather odd argument of whether 1870 was actually "right after the Civil War." Your position was that it "was not right after the Civil War." Weird position. Nervousness. Provided a bit of insight about your mindset. You seemed totally prepared with your law cites. The officers were no match for you. Your objection against their running the s/n was stated clearly.

    Video Part 3--An interesting question comes up, can someone legally shoot the gun in the hand carrier if they feel threatened? That doesn't seem to get resolved.


    I think you won the encounter decisively on several dimensions. Whatwere your objectives for the encounter, kwik?


    Do the next one in the day. It'd be easier to see the video.

    Audio Complaints:

    first complaint: Seemed like a calm, understanding and informed citizen noticing some odd behavior and calling it in. I don't know that I'd call it a "complaint." It was a requestfor the police to look into some behavior that wasobserved.

    griffith complaint part 1: Again, a reasonable calm person (woman) informing the police of a man with a gun. She didn't"complain" in this part.

    griffith complaint part 2: (same) woman and kidswere "scared" and wanted to know if the gun guy had been breaking into cars or houses.

    griffith complaint part 3: (same) woman, again expressedbeing "scared." wanted to know if the gun guyhad shot somebody. the officer (sameofficerwho stopped kwik) gave explanation/opinion to woman thatkwik was trying to get a federal lawsuit against law enforcement. Woman seems to understand that kwik was trying to prove a point about right to bear arms. Officer prompts woman ("And you felt threatened?") and she agrees. She's an attorney and offers to help to "get him under control."



    Whatwere your objectives for the encounter, kwik? Thoseare necessary to properly and fully critique how the detainment was handled.

    Be specific.


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    double tap
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    The OP is acting like a dxxx.

    He knows his @#$%, no doubt.

    But instead of a 'I'm carrying this way in protest because it's illegal to carry in a holster, it's just a political statement'... I hear 'it's my right, F#(%& YOU!'...

    I think the officers were being pretty courteous considering the situation.


    I think you're going to lose in court, because, and here's the thing...

    ANY reasonable person would agree that a PISTOL CARRIED IN THE HAND is reasonably expected to be used at any moment, whereas a holster is designed for carry, a hand is designed for USE.

    Hell, if I saw a guy walking down the street with a gun IN HIS HAND, I'd circle back to get a better look, and may call the police depending on the circumstances.

    With every right comes responsibility. Instead of coming out as a person who's reasonable, you come off as a pxxxx who's trying to start @#$%.

    Pulling the #%(& you pulled, you're 10x more likely to get the 'navy pistol open carry law' or whatever REPEALED than you are to get an 'OK to carry holstered' law INSTATED..



    So, instead of the officer saying 'Hey, look, I appreciate your enthusiasm, we'll get this done together, but try not to do this in this manner because we're gonna get called out here.. blah blah blah'... The officer thinks you're a F'in nut and instead of going to bat for you is going to do what he can to STOP 'that nut' from doing #%(&.
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    My understanding of this law is that he wants it repealed. The state's preemption means that if this law is repealed then he will be able to carry a handgun legally in a "normal" mode.

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    CarryOpen wrote:
    My understanding of this law is that he wants it repealed. The state's preemption means that if this law is repealed then he will be able to carry a handgun legally in a "normal" mode.
    He most likely could have gotten the ordinance repealed or amended by going before the city council and pointing out the sillyness of the ordinance, since the city doesn't enforce it anyway.

    There was no need in pulling this stunt.

    Did you all not here the male officer ask kwik if he had a holster for his pistol?

    Belle Meade has a rather affluent population. There's probably between 100 to 200 (or more)residents of that community that has a HCP. You can't tell me that none of them carries some make of modern handgun, CC or OC, for SD.

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