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Thread: Question about Triggers/Liability

  1. #1
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    Question, I got a friend that has a Glock 19 that he is trying to sell. He tod me that it has a 4Lb trigger but he has the original 8Lb trigger. The problem is that since he had to have the piece filed down it can only be used with that gun. So he would have to charge me for it in the price.

    Anyway, the question is this, he stated that as a Carry gun having a 4Lb trigger could be a Liability if i was to have to use it Vs the 8Lb original trigger. Because of the rate of fire and the "Hair Trigger".
    Now the odd thing is i seen a LEO looking to sell a glock with a 4Lb trigger that he says was used in LE.

    Any info on this would be helpful.

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    The only liability that I could see is if you have a negligent discharge that could be linked to the lighter trigger pull.

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    Regular Member tcmech's Avatar
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    Reverend,

    Glocks don't come with an 8lb trigger. One major city police department (I think it was New York) had their glocks modified to have a heavier trigger pull installed years ago. I don't know if anyone still does that.

    I also would like to know what a "hair trigger" is? Most people don't have an actual definition. I don't consider a 4lb trigger to be what most people would consider to be a hair trigger.

    I don't think I would buy the gun from this guy when he is talking about filing parts inside the gun and having to charge for them.


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    I don't think I would buy the gun from this guy when he is talking about filing parts inside the gun and having to charge for them.

    +1

    Here are some words of wisdom from my father:

    WhenI turned 16, I had a large sum of cash saved up from my summer job to buy my first car. I found it! It was awesome! A 1955 Chevy that had a 396/4 speed crammed into it. Of course, it needed paint, a new interior, some "minor" electrical fixes. There was some rust. Oh, and a new rear window.

    My dad took me to go purchase it. When he took his first look at it, he said:

    "Son, you've worked awfully hard to save that money. Are you sure you want to buy someone else's headache with it?"

    I was heartbroke, but deep down, I knew he was right. I ended up bying a cool '79 Buick Skylark that was in excellent shape. After putting a set of rims on it and some pipes with my left over cash, it was just as cool as the '55, if not cooler since it was actually reliable.

    I take this advice with me whenever I purchase anything used.

    Is it really worth it? Or am I just buying someone else's headache?

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    G 19 has a factory trigger pull of around 5.5 lbs. Could run from 4.5 to 6.5 or so. Do the .25 trigger job and you get closer to 4.5 to 5lbs. Technical info here.

    http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm

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    tcmech wrote:
    Reverend,

    Glocks don't come with an 8lb trigger. One major city police department (I think it was New York) had their glocks modified to have a heavier trigger pull installed years ago. I don't know if anyone still does that.

    I also would like to know what a "hair trigger" is? Most people don't have an actual definition. I don't consider a 4lb trigger to be what most people would consider to be a hair trigger.

    I don't think I would buy the gun from this guy when he is talking about filing parts inside the gun and having to charge for them.

    A hair trigger is one that is so extremely sensitive that a VERY light touch will fire it.

    I don't know if this ever actually happened, but I once read that literally the touch of a hair on a true hair trigger would fire the gun.

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    Regular Member tcmech's Avatar
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    Flyer22 wrote:
    tcmech wrote:
    Reverend,

    Glocks don't come with an 8lb trigger. One major city police department (I think it was New York) had their glocks modified to have a heavier trigger pull installed years ago. I don't know if anyone still does that.

    I also would like to know what a "hair trigger" is? Most people don't have an actual definition. I don't consider a 4lb trigger to be what most people would consider to be a hair trigger.

    I don't think I would buy the gun from this guy when he is talking about filing parts inside the gun and having to charge for them.

    A hair trigger is one that is so extremely sensitive that a VERY light touch will fire it.

    I don't know if this ever actually happened, but I once read that literally the touch of a hair on a true hair trigger would fire the gun.
    I just want to see an actual definition of what weight trigger pull isconsidered a"hair trigger" from a reputable manufacturer.
    If Obama is the answer; how stupid was the question?

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    How much is he going to charge you for the gun, and how much for the butcheredpiece?

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    Flyer22 wrote:
    tcmech wrote:
    Reverend,

    Glocks don't come with an 8lb trigger. One major city police department (I think it was New York) had their glocks modified to have a heavier trigger pull installed years ago. I don't know if anyone still does that.

    I also would like to know what a "hair trigger" is? Most people don't have an actual definition. I don't consider a 4lb trigger to be what most people would consider to be a hair trigger.

    I don't think I would buy the gun from this guy when he is talking about filing parts inside the gun and having to charge for them.

    A hair trigger is one that is so extremely sensitive that a VERY light touch will fire it.

    I don't know if this ever actually happened, but I once read that literally the touch of a hair on a true hair trigger would fire the gun.
    Old wive's tail. Don't believe it.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Reverend45Cal wrote:
    Question, I got a friend that has a Glock 19 that he is trying to sell. He tod me that it has a 4Lb trigger but he has the original 8Lb trigger. The problem is that since he had to have the piece filed down it can only be used with that gun. So he would have to charge me for it in the price.

    Anyway, the question is this, he stated that as a Carry gun having a 4Lb trigger could be a Liability if i was to have to use it Vs the 8Lb original trigger. Because of the rate of fire and the "Hair Trigger".
    Now the odd thing is i seen a LEO looking to sell a glock with a 4Lb trigger that he says was used in LE.

    Any info on this would be helpful.
    I hardly know where to start with this. First, a stock Glock 19 almost always comes with a 5.5 pound trigger from the factory. There are a few exceptions. For example, my primary carry Glock 23 came from the factory with a 5 pound trigger and my other Glock 23 came with a 5.5 pound one.

    I don't have a clue what he means by, "of the rate of fire", so that one needs clarification. And a 4 pound trigger would hardly be a "hair trigger". Also, which "piece" was filed down? let me guess. It was a Ghost Rocket connector (maybe). Now here are some things for you to chew on.

    Glocks don't come with differing triggers in the strict sense, nor can they be altered in and of themselves other than a good cleanup and polishing (the famous 25 cent trigger). In order to change the pull weight, you use lighter (or heavier) connectors, trigger bar springs, and/or striker springs. A lighter striker spring is NOT advisable for a carry gun and not because of liability issues. Because of the very real possibility that a failure to fire (FTF) will occur.

    My advice is to learn about how a Glock works and examine this one carefully, or find a Glock armorer who will do this for you. Do not buy a gun that has been bastardized for use as a SD firearm. Glocks are incredibly reliable right out of the box. I have found that the best mod is just to install the Glock 3.5 connector (part #00135) and let it go at that. Oh, and get a smooth faced trigger for it as well.

    Give this some thought.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Just saw this thread:

    I was reading some suggestions written by a legal scholar, and he made several points:

    1. DON'T use reloads for defensive ammunition.

    2. DON'T cock a double action revolver, which in effect results in a lighter trigger pull.

    Why? You may have to convince a jury that you did not intend to cause more injury than was necessary. Reloads may show them that you intended to do just that; and having a lighter trigger pull may show evidence that you wanted the gun to discharge with less effort.

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    rugerdon wrote:
    Just saw this thread:

    I was reading some suggestions written by a legal scholar, and he made several points:

    1. DON'T use reloads for defensive ammunition.

    2. DON'T cock a double action revolver, which in effect results in a lighter trigger pull.

    Why? You may have to convince a jury that you did not intend to cause more injury than was necessary. Reloads may show them that you intended to do just that; and having a lighter trigger pull may show evidence that you wanted the gun to discharge with less effort.
    This will largely depend upon in which state you live. Different states have different laws and different definitions of what is considered legal and excusable. Best to check the laws in the state where you live.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    rugerdon wrote:
    Just saw this thread:

    I was reading some suggestions written by a legal scholar, and he made several points:

    1. DON'T use reloads for defensive ammunition.

    2. DON'T cock a double action revolver, which in effect results in a lighter trigger pull.

    Why? You may have to convince a jury that you did not intend to cause more injury than was necessary. Reloads may show them that you intended to do just that; and having a lighter trigger pull may show evidence that you wanted the gun to discharge with less effort.
    This will largely depend upon in which state you live. Different states have different laws and different definitions of what is considered legal and excusable. Best to check the laws in the state where you live.
    Congratulations on a 300th post!

    What may or may not be entered into evidence may vary from state to state, but if the condition of your firearm and ammunition is brought before the jury, it will depend upon the jury (and not the law) as to how much it weighs against you.

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    eye95 wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    rugerdon wrote:
    Just saw this thread:

    I was reading some suggestions written by a legal scholar, and he made several points:

    1. DON'T use reloads for defensive ammunition.

    2. DON'T cock a double action revolver, which in effect results in a lighter trigger pull.

    Why? You may have to convince a jury that you did not intend to cause more injury than was necessary. Reloads may show them that you intended to do just that; and having a lighter trigger pull may show evidence that you wanted the gun to discharge with less effort.
    This will largely depend upon in which state you live. Different states have different laws and different definitions of what is considered legal and excusable. Best to check the laws in the state where you live.
    Congratulations on a 300th post!

    What may or may not be entered into evidence may vary from state to state, but if the condition of your firearm and ammunition is brought before the jury, it will depend upon the jury (and not the law) as to how much it weighs against you.
    This can be true. Here in Virginia, we have the concept of an affirmative defense which I believe you also indicated was the case in Alabama. This approach can make it difficult for a prosecutor to show negligence or gross endangerment when one assumes this defense for their actions.

    Hard to assail someone who freely and without reservation admits that, yes he shot the BG and would do so again under the same set of circumstances. All of a sudden, what type of ammunition was used, the pull weight of the trigger, and a host of other things tends to be reduced to small potatoes. Sorta takes the wind out of the other side's sails.

    But strange things have indeed taken place in courtrooms in every state so only a fool would discount prudence.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    rugerdon wrote:
    Just saw this thread:

    I was reading some suggestions written by a legal scholar, and he made several points:

    1. DON'T use reloads for defensive ammunition.

    2. DON'T cock a double action revolver, which in effect results in a lighter trigger pull.

    Why? You may have to convince a jury that you did not intend to cause more injury than was necessary. Reloads may show them that you intended to do just that; and having a lighter trigger pull may show evidence that you wanted the gun to discharge with less effort.
    This will largely depend upon in which state you live. Different states have different laws and different definitions of what is considered legal and excusable. Best to check the laws in the state where you live.
    Congratulations on a 300th post!

    What may or may not be entered into evidence may vary from state to state, but if the condition of your firearm and ammunition is brought before the jury, it will depend upon the jury (and not the law) as to how much it weighs against you.
    This can be true. Here in Virginia, we have the concept of an affirmative defense which I believe you also indicated was the case in Alabama. This approach can make it difficult for a prosecutor to show negligence or gross endangerment when one assumes this defense for their actions.

    Hard to assail someone who freely and without reservation admits that, yes he shot the BG and would do so again under the same set of circumstances. All of a sudden, what type of ammunition was used, the pull weight of the trigger, and a host of other things tends to be reduced to small potatoes. Sorta takes the wind out of the other side's sails.

    But strange things have indeed taken place in courtrooms in every state so only a fool would discount prudence.

    The point is that, if the jury has doubt about justification, evidence of anxiousness to off a BG might make a jury wonder if all the details one testified to are exactly accurate or whether a set of circumstances giving one a chance to "be a hero" was engineered.

    In and of itself, a light trigger pull or particularly deadly ammo would not be proof of intent. However, those kinds of actions could be straws piled on the back of the camel of I-wanna-kill-a-BG-how-can-I-set-this-up.

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    I am referring to a Civil Court vs Criminal Court. In a Civil court, the rules of evidence are looser'

    Legally, you may have had a perfectly legaland moral reasonfor shooting up the bad guy, irregardless of whether you used reloads or had a gun witha light trigger pull.

    But, if the jerk sues you and trys to show a jury in a civil court that you had a diabolical desire to hurt him, then having had used reloads and having a light trigger pull may come back to haunt you.

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    rugerdon wrote:
    I am referring to a Civil Court vs Criminal Court. In a Civil court, the rules of evidence are looser'

    Legally, you may have had a perfectly legaland moral reasonfor shooting up the bad guy, irregardless of whether you used reloads or had a gun witha light trigger pull.

    But, if the jerk sues you and trys to show a jury in a civil court that you had a diabolical desire to hurt him, then having had used reloads and having a light trigger pull may come back to haunt you.
    I still think it comes down to whether or not the jury believes whether the defendant acted in self-defense. If they believe he did, they will find for him. If they believe he set up a situation where he could off a BG, they will find for the plaintiff.

    Trigger pulls and ammo choice could prove to be straws in civil court also.

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    eye95 wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    rugerdon wrote:
    Just saw this thread:

    I was reading some suggestions written by a legal scholar, and he made several points:

    1. DON'T use reloads for defensive ammunition.

    2. DON'T cock a double action revolver, which in effect results in a lighter trigger pull.

    Why? You may have to convince a jury that you did not intend to cause more injury than was necessary. Reloads may show them that you intended to do just that; and having a lighter trigger pull may show evidence that you wanted the gun to discharge with less effort.
    This will largely depend upon in which state you live. Different states have different laws and different definitions of what is considered legal and excusable. Best to check the laws in the state where you live.
    Congratulations on a 300th post!

    What may or may not be entered into evidence may vary from state to state, but if the condition of your firearm and ammunition is brought before the jury, it will depend upon the jury (and not the law) as to how much it weighs against you.
    This can be true. Here in Virginia, we have the concept of an affirmative defense which I believe you also indicated was the case in Alabama. This approach can make it difficult for a prosecutor to show negligence or gross endangerment when one assumes this defense for their actions.

    Hard to assail someone who freely and without reservation admits that, yes he shot the BG and would do so again under the same set of circumstances. All of a sudden, what type of ammunition was used, the pull weight of the trigger, and a host of other things tends to be reduced to small potatoes. Sorta takes the wind out of the other side's sails.

    But strange things have indeed taken place in courtrooms in every state so only a fool would discount prudence.

    The point is that, if the jury has doubt about justification, evidence of anxiousness to off a BG might make a jury wonder if all the details one testified to are exactly accurate or whether a set of circumstances giving one a chance to "be a hero" was engineered.

    In and of itself, a light trigger pull or particularly deadly ammo would not be proof of intent. However, those kinds of actions could be straws piled on the back of the camel of I-wanna-kill-a-BG-how-can-I-set-this-up.
    That's why it's so critical to have an attorney who is experienced and knowledgeable of the law in such cases to represent you should you ever get caught up in something like this. It is also critical that the victim makes as certain as possible, under the circumstances, to act prudently.

    Personally, I agree with the second item rugerdon presented about not cocking a double action revolver. When it comes time to pull the trigger, I don't want there to be any question in my mind, or that of a court, that my actions were deliberate and excusable.

    We are very fortunate here in Prince William County to not only live in Virginia, but also to have an excellent Commonwealth's Attorney. But you never know who or what you'll get when he decides to step down.

    There are no absolutes when it comes to what might happen in a legal proceeding, not to mention the probability of civil litigation which may likely follow.

    Just for the record, I carry a Glock 23 and factory ammo as my primary defensive arm.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    SouthernBoy:

    That is why I practice shooting double action with my S&W 686. It is a long and heavy trigger pull and one tends to pull the gun to one side or the other. There is a "place" during the DA trigger pull in which the cylinder locks in and the hammer is all the way back, then the rest of the pull is similar to a single action. It takes practice.

    I live in the Eastern Part of Prince William County and appreciate it's Conservative County Council. On Sunday I was collecting for the Knights of Columbus' KOVAR campaign and my partner was a Councilman. We had a great conversation about the County and it's policies; they are all Pro-Gun, except for one.

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    SouthernBoy:

    That is why I practice shooting double action with my S&W 686. It is a long and heavy trigger pull and one tends to pull the gun to one side or the other. There is a "place" during the DA trigger pull in which the cylinder locks in and the hammer is all the way back, then the rest of the pull is similar to a single action. It takes practice.

    I live in the Eastern Part of Prince William County and appreciate it's Conservative County Council. On Sunday I was collecting for the Knights of Columbus' KOVAR campaign and my partner was a Councilman. We had a great conversation about the County and it's policies; they are all Pro-Gun, except for one.

  21. #21
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    rugerdon wrote:
    SouthernBoy:

    That is why I practice shooting double action with my S&W 686. It is a long and heavy trigger pull and one tends to pull the gun to one side or the other. There is a "place" during the DA trigger pull in which the cylinder locks in and the hammer is all the way back, then the rest of the pull is similar to a single action. It takes practice.

    I live in the Eastern Part of Prince William County and appreciate it's Conservative County Council. On Sunday I was collecting for the Knights of Columbus' KOVAR campaign and my partner was a Councilman. We had a great conversation about the County and it's policies; they are all Pro-Gun, except for one.
    Our Commonwealth's Attorney is from the same small city where I grew up. His father was my dentist when I was a little kid and his brothers were friends of mine and my brother. He's a good man.

    I have two DA revolvers, both Rugers, but I prefer carrying either one of my Glocks, almost always one of my G23's, or one of my Kahr's.

    As for civil litigation, if you are found to have acted in accordance with the law and the homicide was deemed excusable, it is going to be difficult for a suit to be won against you showing that your actions were not within the proper bounds. This is one of the real beauties of an affirmative defense. But I am not foolish enough, or naive enough, to think a suit would not or could not be filed against you for something. This may probably be the best thing about a Castle Law - civil litigation. I would not want to lose the affirmative action defense, but from what I know, a Castle Law to protect against civil litigation when you are deemed to have been in the right with your actions, looks like a good thing. Of course, this also begs the question of whether you should even be tried for anything if your actions were fully within the law.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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