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Firearms in the UK ... POLL

UKexcop

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I'm not talking about disarming the populace. I'm talking about not introducing firearms into Britain, the subject of this thread, where the population is largely unarmed, at least with any form of firearm (!) and never has been, despite any myths about the past you might have picked up from reading Sherlock Holmes. Some Victorian and Edwardian 'gentlemen' may have carried pistols, but they were a tiny minority.

My biggest fear is not being defenceless in the face of the attackers and murderers you seem to think we constantly face. Actually, in 30 years in the policeI had to defend myself on more occasions thanI can remember and was always successful. Never needed a gun to do it though, they're not the only way of defending yourself. I'm more frightened of the evil or simply disturbed getting their hands on guns. Even if very strict controls are exercised over legal ownership, what about theft? That seems to be committed by criminals, the ones you don't want armed. Each year in the USA over a third of a million guns are reported stolen. That's a lot of guns in the hands of criminals.I don't want to give British criminals the same source of supply, as well as risking the legitimate holders blowing a fuse and going on the rampage.

My point is that, in the USA, already a violent and gun-carrying society, your cure for violence might work. In generally unarmed and relatively peaceful Britain (I reiterate, our murder rate is only one third of yours) it would just make you more likely to be on the receiving end of lethal violence. The cure would be worse than the disease.
 

Grapeshot

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UKexcop wrote:
I'm not talking about disarming the populace. I'm talking about not introducing firearms into Britain, the subject of this thread, where the population is largely unarmed, at least with any form of firearm (!) and never has been, despite any myths about the past you might have picked up from reading Sherlock Holmes. Some Victorian and Edwardian 'gentlemen' may have carried pistols, but they were a tiny minority.

My biggest fear is not being defenceless in the face of the attackers and murderers you seem to think we constantly face. Actually, in 30 years in the policeI had to defend myself on more occasions thanI can remember and was always successful. Never needed a gun to do it though, they're not the only way of defending yourself. I'm more frightened of the evil or simply disturbed getting their hands on guns. Even if very strict controls are exercised over legal ownership, what about theft? That seems to be committed by criminals, the ones you don't want armed. Each year in the USA over a third of a million guns are reported stolen. That's a lot of guns in the hands of criminals.I don't want to give British criminals the same source of supply, as well as risking the legitimate holders blowing a fuse and going on the rampage.

My point is that, in the USA, already a violent and gun-carrying society, your cure for violence might work. In generally unarmed and relatively peaceful Britain (I reiterate, our murder rate is only one third of yours) it would just make you more likely to be on the receiving end of lethal violence. The cure would be worse than the disease.
You ARE talking about KEEPING the populace disarmed.

I am not a fan of your mythical detective - sorry. I am aware that the working class Brits were disarmed as a result of the landed gentry wishing to control poaching and ultimately because they feared armed rebellion. Yet they, the aristocrats - the titled, have always enjoyed the protection of life and property. Leave it to the few, your minority, to rule the many.

I do not believe that you "constantly" have anything life threatening, but it only takes once unless you have the lives of a tabby. Never said that a gun was the "only" way to defend oneself and admittedly it should be the last resort. Unfortunately, I have seen how you treat some victims who were forced to protect themselves by whatever means available - I find the punishment of the victim reprehensible.

"Evil and disturbed" persons will always find a way to wreck havoc. You cannot legislate morality. You should, however, be allowed your God given right to protect yourself from them. You leave people with a cell phone and a prayer then arrive with chalk and camera to solve the crime - how nice.

Your yearly figure on guns stolen in the USA is wholly inaccurate. The latest figures available indicate 138,035 guns were stolen (approximately 1/2% or less) and declining each year as is the murder rate.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-12-17-guns-usat_x.htm

You then insult the honest British citizen, or should I say subject, by demonstrating your lack of trust and faith in them - you fear their 'blowing a fuse and going on the rampage." Really little Johny, it just doesn't happen - we've heard all of the fear mongering before. In fact the direct opposite happens - good people are responsible people and will continue to be law abiding.

To give the devil his due, yes we have more murder in my country. The problem is primarily a social/economic one with no single answer. The solution does not direct itself to disarmament, but perhaps to shutting the revolving doors to our system and through education. We are doing something right as the numbers indicate.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20203888/

The cure is not to lie down and accept that the innocent be punished for the acts of the criminals/guilty. Recognize the bad people are the problem, not guns, vehicles, bath tubs or dare I say it - knives.

Your service of 30 years is appreciated. Had you been a officer in my state, you might have been one of my students - I am a retired Academy instructor. You, sir, would be in need of some in-service training.

Your assignment is to read and grasp the material in Gun Facts.
There are a few cites/links included there for your benefit.
http://www.gunfacts.info/

There will be a pop quiz and I do not grade on the curve.

Class dismissed.

Yata hey

PS - Sorry you "feel" that way but I deal in facts.
 

old dog

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There are two kinds of British cop: The steady, helpful, gentlemanly Bobby of films and TV who is much admired in naive America.

And there is the real article: The one who confiscated an elderly man's cane because it could be an offensive weapon. Or the ones in this story I read two or three years ago.

It seems this drug dealer became upset with his girlfriend and decided to discipline her by tossing her out a second-floor window. After a long period unattended police and ambulance finally showed up and took her to the hospital where a police guard was posted.

Now the good part. The criminal decided to visit the patient and called the hospital to inform them. The police guard immediately bailed leaving the young woman unprotected. A real cop would have stayed around and given the thug an ASB caution.

And don't forget the hero who ordered a man to remove the St. George flag from his car lest some put-upon minority be offended or the ones who insist they can't remove trespassers who are taking over private homes and effectively destroying lives.

I could go on but I'll simply reiterate that your police system is out of control and thoroughly useless.
 

saveyourself

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I don't blame the police, they are just puppets (or should that be muppets) for our pathetic political rulers, I won't call them government, they overstepped that mark long ago:(.

Ourrulers (parliament), took away an agreement between the people and the Monarch thatparliament were not party to. They had no right or authority toremove OUR RKBA. At the time this RKBA was removed, Britain was a very safe country, not the shambles UKexcopthinks we would become.

As has been mentioned, the US is becoming safer by the day, and they don't record crimes to suit the polititian of the moment.
 

UKexcop

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"You then insult the honest British citizen, or should I say subject, by demonstrating your lack of trust and faith in them - you fear their 'blowing a fuse and going on the rampage." Really little Johny, it just doesn't happen "



Tell that to the parents of Dunblane.

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre)

Of course it doesn't happen in the USA either, does it?
 

Grapeshot

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UKexcop wrote:
"You then insult the honest British citizen, or should I say subject, by demonstrating your lack of trust and faith in them - you fear their 'blowing a fuse and going on the rampage." Really little Johny, it just doesn't happen "



Tell that to the parents of Dunblane.

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre)

Of course it doesn't happen in the USA either, does it?
Yes tragic, so your answer is to prepare more defenseless victims for the next one?

Had he used an IED, I guess you would pass a law against that - let us know how that works out.

Also you didn't do your homework assignment.
You ignore too much and respond to too little when it comes to looking at facts.

The problem is you are part of the problem - not the solution.
 

Grapeshot

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saveyourself wrote:
I say again - Read Joyce Lee Malcolms book ! It does not support what many in the UK (includingUKexcop) think. References for every statistic and statement in the bookare given.

Shall we club together any buy him a copy;)
His great grandchildren would inherit a pristine, unread copy.

You can ride a jackass to school, but he'll never learn to read much less comprehend.

Is it flaming to call him a braying jackass? If it is, I won't.
 

Grapeshot

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As a follow up to UKexcop's earlier emotional tirade and expressed distrust of lawful Brits, I submit the following as he did use the USA as an example.

Report From Liberal Cable Outlet Shows That More Guns Equals Fewer Firearms Deaths



http://tinyurl.com/y9vy9aa

In this decade, the gun-homicide rate has fallen to 4.07 per 100,000,
which equates to a 28 percent reduction in homicides with the use of
firearms. This decline in homicides follows a five-fold increase in a
"shall-issue"
(requirement of a permit to carry a concealed handgun,
but where the granting of the permit is subject only to meeting
certain criteria laid out in the law) and unrestricted concealed-carry
laws in states from 1986 to 2006, reported MSNBC.com.

According to federal background checks conducted on the sale of most
firearms, the decline in homicides comes as U.S. firearm sales are
skyrocketing.


While the number of gun sales held stable between 8.5 million and 9
million from 1999-2005, the FBI reported a rise in sales to 10 million
in 2006. In 2007 the number jumped to 11 million; in 2008, up to 13
million; and more than 14 million in 2009 -- an increase of 55 percent
in four years.

The nation's highest gun homicide rates are in Washington, D.C., with
20.50 deaths per 100,000 people, five times the general rate. Yet the
District of Columbia has the strictest gun-control laws in the nation.
The lowest rate of gun-related homicides is in Utah: 1.12 deaths per
100,000 people. Utah's gun-control policy is very unrestricted.

According to SAF's Gottlieb, gun control advocates "repeatedly argued
that more guns will equate to more crime and more firearm deaths, and
MSNBC.com just let the air out of their sails with this exhaustive and
well-balanced report
.

Yata hey
 

DEROS72

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Grapeshot wrote:
t33j wrote:
snip...

and have no objections from your local chief LEO.
Local LE has NO personal, valid input. This is NOT part of the equation in Va.

Either you are qualified or disallowed by statute - past events are what count, not objections/opinions.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

The above cite might work well as a planning model for you - you could do worse.
Only thing better IMO would be Alaska or Vermont style.

Yata hey
Leo input is not part of a permit in Wa. either.It is a shall issue as well.If you want one and pass the background they are required to give it to you.I believe no one else has the right to judge me in that regard. Open carry requires no permit at all in Wa. as in other states.the way it should be.
 

Sonora Rebel

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I'm long past caring what they do in theUK. The wars of the 19th and 20th centuries stripped their gene pool to what it is today. In another century... they'll all be speakin' Urdu under Sharia Law anyway.
 

UKexcop

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No my answer is not to arm even more potential murderers. Or would you have primary school teachers packing a gun?
 

Haz.

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UKexcop wrote:
No my answer is not to arm even more potential murderers. Or would you have primary school teachers packing a gun?

Hi UKexcop.

You wrote,
"My point is that, in the USA, already a violent and gun-carrying society, your cure for violence might work. In generally unarmed and relatively peaceful Britain (I reiterate, our murder rate is only one third of yours) it would just make you more likely to be on the receiving end of lethal violence."
.

The USA is no more violent than England. In fact its less violent in many aspects. I have yet to see mass violence erruptat baseball matches, or any other popular sports because the opposition wone the match at an away game. Hooligans smashing up towns, bars, cafe's, because they did not like the end result of a game?

How about taking into consideration the populations of both England and America? England has about 62 millionpeople compared to Americas 307 million. You state that Englands murder rate is only one third of Americas.If youmultiplyEnglands population by three you have186 million people. If we take away 186 million from 307 millionEnglands population isstill 121 million less than the USA, double Englands now.

So if Englands murder rate is one third of Americas murder rate, and havingonlyone quarter of the population of America, I would saythe people of England havea serious problem and that would be because the people have been stripped of their right and ability to defend themselves.

As a free moral agent you are entitled to your opinion even if it is biased.

Haz.
 

Grapeshot

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UKexcop wrote:
No my answer is not to arm even more potential murderers. Or would you have primary school teachers packing a gun?
So you would keep the honest citizens ready and waiting as disarmed potential victims - figures.

Insofar as school teachers armed - you bet.

Yata hey
 

Haz.

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UKexcop wrote:
No my answer is not to arm even more potential murderers. Or would you have primary school teachers packing a gun?
Dear ex-plod.

You seem to like the idea that criminals, who are armed, can be armed, and the general public remain unarmed and at their mercy.

Primary school teachers armed? In a heartbeat. Kindergarten teachers, primary school teachers, high school teachers, child minding staff, hospital staff, bus drivers, train guards, airline staff, shop owners, and the law abiding general public would all be armed if I had my way.

Criminals, the murderers you fear so much would shudder in their boots if this were to happen, the craven cowards that they are.

The police have no legal duty to protect individuals.

The police have no legal liability when they fail to protect individuals.

The police have virtually no physical ability to protect individuals.

When you're in danger RIGHT NOW, protect yourself or don't get protected AT ALL.
I'm not willing to trade one iota of liberty for the ILLUSION of security.


“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.“ Sigmund Freud (“General Introduction to Psychoanalysis,“ S. Freud)
 

Flyer22

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Grapeshot wrote:
UKexcop wrote:
No my answer is not to arm even more potential murderers. Or would you have primary school teachers packing a gun?
So you would keep the honest citizens ready and waiting as disarmed potential victims - figures.

Insofar as school teachers armed - you bet.

Yata hey

I know full well that UKexcop won't admit this, but arming teachers in China might have kept some of those recently-stabbed students alive.

He'll probably call for knive control instead.
 

Grapeshot

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Flyer22 wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
UKexcop wrote:
No my answer is not to arm even more potential murderers. Or would you have primary school teachers packing a gun?
So you would keep the honest citizens ready and waiting as disarmed potential victims - figures.

Insofar as school teachers armed - you bet.

Yata hey

I know full well that UKexcop won't admit this, but arming teachers in China might have kept some of those recently-stabbed students alive.

He'll probably call for knive control instead.
Unless I am wrong, they already have some pretty strict knife laws. Don't even want to defend yourself from attack by any means lest you be prosecuted and sued.

Also would have to outlaw hammers as used in the latest incident in China.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/0...dren-hurt-new-attack-kindergarten-east-china/

Yata hey
 
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