Firearms in the UK ... POLL

[saveyourself]

and also. How about the Swiss experience !?

Would they be a better comparison?

[UKexcop]

"You then insult the honest British citizen, or should I say subject, by demonstrating your lack of trust and faith in them - you fear their 'blowing a fuse and going on the rampage." Really little Johny, it just doesn't happen "



Tell that to the parents of Dunblane.

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre)

Of course it doesn't happen in the USA either, does it?

[Grapeshot]

UKexcop wrote:

"You then insult the honest British citizen, or should I say subject, by demonstrating your lack of trust and faith in them - you fear their 'blowing a fuse and going on the rampage." Really little Johny, it just doesn't happen "



Tell that to the parents of Dunblane.

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre)

Of course it doesn't happen in the USA either, does it?

Yes tragic, so your answer is to prepare more defenseless victims for the next one?

Had he used an IED, I guess you would pass a law against that - let us know how that works out.

Also you didn't do your homework assignment.
You ignore too much and respond to too little when it comes to looking at facts.

The problem is you are part of the problem - not the solution.

[saveyourself]

I say again - Read Joyce Lee Malcolms book ! It does not support what many in the UK (includingUKexcop) think. References for every statistic and statement in the bookare given.

Shall we club together any buy him a copy

[Grapeshot]

saveyourself wrote:

I say again - Read Joyce Lee Malcolms book ! It does not support what many in the UK (includingUKexcop) think. References for every statistic and statement in the bookare given.

Shall we club together any buy him a copy

His great grandchildren would inherit a pristine, unread copy.

You can ride a jackass to school, but he'll never learn to read much less comprehend.

Is it flaming to call him a braying jackass? If it is, I won't.

[Grapeshot]

As a follow up to UKexcop's earlier emotional tirade and expressed distrust of lawful Brits, I submit the following as he did use the USA as an example.

Report From Liberal Cable Outlet Shows That More Guns Equals Fewer Firearms Deaths


http://tinyurl.com/y9vy9aa

In this decade, the gun-homicide rate has fallen to 4.07 per 100,000,
which equates to a 28 percent reduction in homicides with the use of
firearms. This decline in homicides follows a five-fold increase in a
"shall-issue" (requirement of a permit to carry a concealed handgun,
but where the granting of the permit is subject only to meeting
certain criteria laid out in the law) and unrestricted concealed-carry
laws in states from 1986 to 2006, reported MSNBC.com.

According to federal background checks conducted on the sale of most
firearms, the decline in homicides comes as U.S. firearm sales are
skyrocketing.


While the number of gun sales held stable between 8.5 million and 9
million from 1999-2005, the FBI reported a rise in sales to 10 million
in 2006. In 2007 the number jumped to 11 million; in 2008, up to 13
million; and more than 14 million in 2009 -- an increase of 55 percent
in four years.

The nation's highest gun homicide rates are in Washington, D.C., with
20.50 deaths per 100,000 people, five times the general rate. Yet the
District of Columbia has the strictest gun-control laws in the nation.
The lowest rate of gun-related homicides is in Utah: 1.12 deaths per
100,000 people. Utah's gun-control policy is very unrestricted.

According to SAF's Gottlieb, gun control advocates "repeatedly argued
that more guns will equate to more crime and more firearm deaths, and
MSNBC.com just let the air out of their sails with this exhaustive and
well-balanced report.

Yata hey

[DEROS72]

Grapeshot wrote:

t33j wrote:

snip...

and have no objections from your local chief LEO.

Local LE has NO personal, valid input. This is NOT part of the equation in Va.

Either you are qualified or disallowed by statute - past events are what count, not objections/opinions.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

The above cite might work well as a planning model for you - you could do worse.
Only thing better IMO would be Alaska or Vermont style.

Yata hey

Leo input is not part of a permit in Wa. either.It is a shall issue as well.If you want one and pass the background they are required to give it to you.I believe no one else has the right to judge me in that regard. Open carry requires no permit at all in Wa. as in other states.the way it should be.

[Sonora Rebel]

I'm long past caring what they do in theUK. The wars of the 19th and 20th centuries stripped their gene pool to what it is today. In another century... they'll all be speakin' Urdu under Sharia Law anyway.

[saveyourself]

There is a lot of truth in that sadly.

[UKexcop]

No my answer is not to arm even more potential murderers. Or would you have primary school teachers packing a gun?

[Haz.]

UKexcop wrote:

No my answer is not to arm even more potential murderers. Or would you have primary school teachers packing a gun?

Hi UKexcop.

You wrote,

"My point is that, in the USA, already a violent and gun-carrying society, your cure for violence might work. In generally unarmed and relatively peaceful Britain (I reiterate, our murder rate is only one third of yours) it would just make you more likely to be on the receiving end of lethal violence."

.

The USA is no more violent than England. In fact its less violent in many aspects. I have yet to see mass violence erruptat baseball matches, or any other popular sports because the opposition wone the match at an away game. Hooligans smashing up towns, bars, cafe's, because they did not like the end result of a game?

How about taking into consideration the populations of both England and America? England has about 62 millionpeople compared to Americas 307 million. You state that Englands murder rate is only one third of Americas.If youmultiplyEnglands population by three you have186 million people. If we take away 186 million from 307 millionEnglands population isstill 121 million less than the USA, double Englands now.

So if Englands murder rate is one third of Americas murder rate, and havingonlyone quarter of the population of America, I would saythe people of England havea serious problem and that would be because the people have been stripped of their right and ability to defend themselves.

As a free moral agent you are entitled to your opinion even if it is biased.

Haz.

[Grapeshot]

UKexcop wrote:

No my answer is not to arm even more potential murderers. Or would you have primary school teachers packing a gun?

So you would keep the honest citizens ready and waiting as disarmed potential victims - figures.

Insofar as school teachers armed - you bet.

Yata hey

[Haz.]

UKexcop wrote:

No my answer is not to arm even more potential murderers. Or would you have primary school teachers packing a gun?

Dear ex-plod.

You seem to like the idea that criminals, who are armed, can be armed, and the general public remain unarmed and at their mercy.

Primary school teachers armed? In a heartbeat. Kindergarten teachers, primary school teachers, high school teachers, child minding staff, hospital staff, bus drivers, train guards, airline staff, shop owners, and the law abiding general public would all be armed if I had my way.

Criminals, the murderers you fear so much would shudder in their boots if this were to happen, the craven cowards that they are.

The police have no legal duty to protect individuals.

The police have no legal liability when they fail to protect individuals.

The police have virtually no physical ability to protect individuals.

When you're in danger RIGHT NOW, protect yourself or don't get protected AT ALL.
I'm not willing to trade one iota of liberty for the ILLUSION of security.

“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.“ Sigmund Freud (“General Introduction to Psychoanalysis,“ S. Freud)

[Flyer22]

Grapeshot wrote:

UKexcop wrote:

No my answer is not to arm even more potential murderers. Or would you have primary school teachers packing a gun?

So you would keep the honest citizens ready and waiting as disarmed potential victims - figures.

Insofar as school teachers armed - you bet.

Yata hey

I know full well that UKexcop won't admit this, but arming teachers in China might have kept some of those recently-stabbed students alive.

He'll probably call for knive control instead.

[Grapeshot]

Flyer22 wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

UKexcop wrote:

No my answer is not to arm even more potential murderers. Or would you have primary school teachers packing a gun?

So you would keep the honest citizens ready and waiting as disarmed potential victims - figures.

Insofar as school teachers armed - you bet.

Yata hey

I know full well that UKexcop won't admit this, but arming teachers in China might have kept some of those recently-stabbed students alive.

He'll probably call for knive control instead.

Unless I am wrong, they already have some pretty strict knife laws. Don't even want to defend yourself from attack by any means lest you be prosecuted and sued.

Also would have to outlaw hammers as used in the latest incident in China.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/04...en-east-china/

Yata hey

[groats]

UKexcop wrote:

No my answer is not to arm even more potential murderers.Â* Or would you have primary school teachers packing a gun?

What makes you think primary school teachers are potential murderers?

Face it, you have no plan that will work.

There is one which will:

"An armed society is a polite society"- Heinlein
It's not just a slogan, it is common sense, as well as statistically provable.

[Grapeshot]

groats wrote:

UKexcop wrote:

No my answer is not to arm even more potential murderers. Or would you have primary school teachers packing a gun?

What makes you think primary school teachers are potential murderers?

Face it, you have no plan that will work.

There is one which will:

"An armed society is a polite society"- Heinlein
It's not just a slogan, it is common sense, as well as statistically provable.

In his mind, everybody is a potential murder - trust no one, disarm them all.

Problem that he fails to see is that the bg will still have weapons.

Yata hey

[Haz.]

What Ex-Uk-Plod is saying is this.

"Dont give me a gun, I dont want a gun, I MIGHT MURDER SOMEONE IF I GET A GUN.

I amno longera law abiding citizen if or whenever I am armed. When I amarmed I become a potential murderer."

He scary man.

Haz.

[Buzz-tronic]

groats wrote:
In his mind, everybody is a potential murder - trust no one, disarm them all.

Problem that he fails to see is that the bg will still have weapons.

Yata hey

Grapeshot, you are a well-minded and fine citizen standing up to that supposed ex-cop.
Nicely done, the UK police HATE the idea of people protecting themselves and love the power-trip they have.
The cops in the USA are not perfect but they do respect the citizen a lot more than the UK police do.
There is some evidence to support that Dunblaine was a cover-up for a rogue freemason group (child sacrifice) who went on the rampage and Hamilton was the fall-guy.

Indeed all the records on the case were sealed from public viewing for many years (just like the JFK killing).

I voted Yes on that poll too!

[Daylen]

Rogue freemasons sacrificing children?! wtf? Ya know just because they don't make a public list of their members and don't have their meetings open to the public doesn't mean they are evil devil worshipers.

[David Turner]

No my answer is not to arm even more potential murderers. Or would you have primary school teachers packing a gun?

I tell you what. If primary teachers were armed, there wouldn't be too many school rampages, would there? The nutters always, but always, find targets who are unarmed. Then, they shoot 'em like fish in a barrel.

[since9]

Excellent results in the poll! Both "Yes" answers are tied for 46%, leaving just 8% for the various "No" votes.

That's about as definitive as a poll gets.

As for the last option, "No ... there would be widespread carnage if good people were allowed firearms. 6.44%", that's why I see "widespread carnage" here in Colorado, one of the most pro-gun states here in the U.S. , while California, one of the least pro-gun states has such a rosy lack of criminal history...

[Alexcabbie]

I have read with interest the comments by the gentleperson who identifies him/her self as a former UK Police Officer.

Looky here, Poindexter. That "even the police here carry no firearms" business was all very well and good when England was an homogenous society. Unspoken code betwixt the criminal class and the police, what?

Well, hell, Bobby. Down at the corner pub (yes there is one in my neighborhood) I feel no need for a firearm. I am among friends. But out in the city, blocks from home, my weapon is a comfort and an assurance.

I hear tell you UK LEOs now have special two-man teams driving in specially marked squad cars which contain, in the trunk, one unloaded revolver.

Well, I suppose that resolves holster-retention issues.

y'see, Mister Peel, Britain isn't so homogeneous anymore. You have imported to your shores hordes of people from cultures quite alien to your own. And these folks don't give a fig for all your fine honorable traditions. Much less your laws.

Frankly, Sir, your attitude toward the bearing of firearms by a free populace reminds me of a story wherein a farmer tells his wife that foxes have been killing the cats the farmer keeps to control rats in the grain-crib.

The wife's solution? De-claw the cats.

It was not for the lack of rights retained by an Englishman that these United States revolted against King George III, it is rather that George IGNORED these rights.

Seems to me that the American Colonies were fortunate to have the good sense to remove themselves from the jurisdiction of England. You folks on the other side of the sink have gone crackers.