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Thread: SCHOOL FINDER

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    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    http://www.education.com/schoolfinde...state=&zip=

    I post this link to see if anyone knows of a better one.

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    Is this what you used to locate the school next to the gun show that you carried at?
    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    do you have better? Actually I used it to find the schools in my area. As I stated i didnt bother to look for schools near a GUN SHOW, because I didn't think they would have a GUN SHOW near a SCHOOL.

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    It would be nice if there was a way to have a map drawn with the 1,000 ft distance circle indicated.

    Hey all you programmers out there -is there anapp for that??

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    dirtykoala wrote:
    Is this what you used to locate the school next to the gun show that you carried at?
    LOL

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    PincheOgro1 wrote: If I relied on this link I would surely be arrested.

    Doesn't show the 4 closest public schools to my home.

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    Law enforcement already has the technology to create such maps. Sunnyvale PD already made one. I asked the police departments in Fremont, Newark, Union City, and Milpitas whether they would be able to create similar maps, and I was met with a whole lot of "we're under no obligation to create such maps, and we won't use our resources to do so". So, we are left to our own devices to create school zone maps.

    I understand that there is reluctance from some to create such maps because they cling to the "knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone" wording of Penal Code 626.9. While I readily believe that it is a legitimate argument to say that you didn't reasonably know that a school zone was within 1,000 feet, apparently there was a fairly recent court case in which an open carrier got into trouble, even though he did not know that he was in a school zone. Accordingly, knowledge is important.

    If anyone does have the time and ability to create such a map, it would be crucial to include EVERY K-12 school, both public and private. Let's hope someone can do it.

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    AdnanShahab wrote:
    Law enforcement already has the technology to create such maps. Sunnyvale PD already made one. I asked the police departments in Fremont, Newark, Union City, and Milpitas whether they would be able to create similar maps, and I was met with a whole lot of "we're under no obligation to create such maps, and we won't use our resources to do so". So, we are left to our own devices to create school zone maps.

    I understand that there is reluctance from some to create such maps because they cling to the "knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone" wording of Penal Code 626.9. While I readily believe that it is a legitimate argument to say that you didn't reasonably know that a school zone was within 1,000 feet, apparently there was a fairly recent court case in which an open carrier got into trouble, even though he did not know that he was in a school zone. Accordingly, knowledge is important.

    If anyone does have the time and ability to create such a map, it would be crucial to include EVERY K-12 school, both public and private. Let's hope someone can do it.
    anything short of a govt issued map is likely going to result in the loss of your ability to own firearms for the next 10 years. this has been discussed many times over but your basic problem is how do you determine the property boundaries of each school because they certainly do not measure from the center of the property.

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    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    JJ wrote:
    PincheOgro1 wrote: If I relied on this link I would surely be arrested.

    Doesn't show the 4 closest public schools to my home.
    JJ,

    I posted the link because it's the only one I have found. I have noticed a school that's not listed in my area also. I have emailed the web page to find out why.

    I was hoping to see if anyonehad a BETTER ONE. -Do you?

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    Google maps works well for me. I just type in "school" then weed out the ones that aren't k-12 schools
    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    I have started creating a map like has been talked about on this tread for the areas around my house. It is pretty good. There is so much information to get and organize for a project like this that you almost have to start out with very specific areas that you want to look at and work out from there.

    I know some people think it is as easy as finiding the school and drawing a 1000 foot circle from the center, but I'm not totally convinced it is that simple. IMO I began drawing the 1000 foot boundry from the property lines of the school to eliminate all doubt as to whether I would be in a school zone ot not.

    So, if anyone wants a particular area mapped out for meetups and the like I would be willing to look into and get as much info out as possible.

    JSC

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    the problem i see with mapping school zones is that you now know, or reasonably should know the school is there. it kills any 626.9 defense you could potentialy have.
    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    I posted this link in another thread a week or so ago. It showed schools in Vista I didn't know existed. But I never had any reason to be in those areas.

    http://www.cde.ca.gov/re/sd/

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    jsebclark wrote:
    I have started creating a map like has been talked about on this tread for the areas around my house. It is pretty good. There is so much information to get and organize for a project like this that you almost have to start out with very specific areas that you want to look at and work out from there.

    I know some people think it is as easy as finiding the school and drawing a 1000 foot circle from the center, but I'm not totally convinced it is that simple. IMO I began drawing the 1000 foot boundry from the property lines of the school to eliminate all doubt as to whether I would be in a school zone ot not.

    So, if anyone wants a particular area mapped out for meetups and the like I would be willing to look into and get as much info out as possible.

    JSC
    Unless you have access to parcel maps or GIS data from the city I would be careful relying on observable boundaries of a school as being the end of the property. What I mean by that is that the end of property is not always the fence or the wall and anything short of using GIS data provided by the city/county will result in bad data and putting yourself and others at risk.

    The only definition of "school zone" ,as it relates to property boundaries, that matters is what the government, whether that be city,county or state, determines it to be. The burden of providing this information should be put on them and not on us.

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    dirtykoala wrote:
    the problem i see with mapping school zones is that you now know, or reasonably should know the school is there. it kills any 626.9 defense you could potentialy have.
    This is also a very good point and should be carefully thought through should anyone decide to use one of these maps.

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    yelohamr wrote:
    I posted this link in another thread a week or so ago. It showed schools in Vista I didn't know existed. But I never had any reason to be in those areas.

    http://www.cde.ca.gov/re/sd/
    I can also verify that the data on this site and others that I have found is inaccurate as I had previously wanted to put together a Google Earth map of school zones. I compiled all of the lists that were available and ran them through the yahoo and google geocoding api and the results were less than satisfactory. Here are some of the issues I ran into aside from what I have already mentioned in my earlier posts.

    • wrong address
    • closed
    • no longer there
    • property boundaries are not discernible

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    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    obeygiant wrote:
    yelohamr wrote:
    I posted this link in another thread a week or so ago. It showed schools in Vista I didn't know existed. But I never had any reason to be in those areas.

    http://www.cde.ca.gov/re/sd/
    I can also verify that the data on this site and others that I have found is inaccurate as I had previously wanted to put together a Google Earth map of school zones. I compiled all of the lists that were available and ran them through the yahoo and google geocoding api and the results were less than satisfactory. Here are some of the issues I ran into aside from what I have already mentioned in my earlier posts.

    • wrong address
    • closed
    • no longer there
    • property boundaries are not discernible
    Yeloh,

    I remember you posting this. I ran a listing for my area, and it only came up with 30 schools. The one I linked to listed 31. AND I was reading PC626, it states that you cannot be within 100 feet of a school bus stop (DURING BUSINESS HOURS). This has got me annoyed. There is a school bus stop right behind my house.


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    dirtykoala wrote:
    the problem i see with mapping school zones is that you now know, or reasonably should know the school is there. it kills any 626.9 defense you could potentialy have.

    I have read and understand that logic for some kind of defense. I personally think it would be a very weak defense. I believe it is best to know the law as best an any reasonable citizen should be expected to know the law. I would suspect that the wording in 626.9 is an indicator of that same logic. The argument from the prosecution would be, "Would a reasonable person would have know that a school was nearby and that you were within 1000' of that school". If the prosecution can convince the jury that a reasonable person should have know that, then your defense is dead.

    Like I posted earlier, I don't just take the minimum of 1000 feet from the center, but from the property lines. That way if something did go wrong and I needed to defend myself against a violation of 626.9 I can show that I went above and beyond what a reasonable citizen would have known in favor of being farther away from the school, thus forcing the system to address the gray area of where the boundary is.

    Knowledge is power and when you play dumb, you are giving away some power.


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    jsebclark wrote:
    dirtykoala wrote:
    the problem i see with mapping school zones is that you now know, or reasonably should know the school is there. it kills any 626.9 defense you could potentialy have.

    I have read and understand that logic for some kind of defense. I personally think it would be a very weak defense. I believe it is best to know the law as best an any reasonable citizen should be expected to know the law. I would suspect that the wording in 626.9 is an indicator of that same logic. The argument from the prosecution would be, "Would a reasonable person would have know that a school was nearby and that you were within 1000' of that school". If the prosecution can convince the jury that a reasonable person should have know that, then your defense is dead.

    Like I posted earlier, I don't just take the minimum of 1000 feet from the center, but from the property lines. That way if something did go wrong and I needed to defend myself against a violation of 626.9 I can show that I went above and beyond what a reasonable citizen would have known in favor of being farther away from the school, thus forcing the system to address the gray area of where the boundary is.

    Knowledge is power and when you play dumb, you are giving away some power.
    626.9 is 1000 ft from the edge of the property, not the center of the school, this has been discussed. 626.9 also says any k-12 school that a person knows or reasonably should know is there. my defense (in theroy) would work if lets say, i was in palm springs, i have never been there, and would have no reason to know where a school was.

    knowledge is sometimes power, but in the case of 626.9, the burden of proof is on the DA. the law makes an exeption for someone who didnt know a school was there. playing dumb is your onlydefense to 626.9.
    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    I concur that the burden of proof would be on the DA. But again, I believe that they would only have to convince a jury that a reasonable citizen knows or should know a school was there and / or within 1000 feet. I suppose in a very hypothetical sense they would have to prove that YOU specifically knew that you were in a school zone and violating the law, but I think that would be able to get some kind of conviction by just showing that a reasonable citizen should have known they were in the school zone.

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    jsebclark wrote:
    I concur that the burden of proof would be on the DA. But again, I believe that they would only have to convince a jury that a reasonable citizen knows or should know a school was there and / or within 1000 feet. I suppose in a very hypothetical sense they would have to prove that YOU specifically knew that you were in a school zone and violating the law, but I think that would be able to get some kind of conviction by just showing that a reasonable citizen should have known they were in the school zone.
    626.9 says the person knows, or reasonably should know, so yes, even unhypotheticaly, they would have to prove that the person in question (not just any "reasonable" person) knew or should have known the school was there. i think the exeption is there to protect people in the example i gave, who are not in their usual area, and would have no reason to know a school is nearby.

    then again, 2 identical 626.9 cases could goto trial, one with a conviction based on your idea, and the 2nd with no conviction based on mine. CA courts are a special place full of magic.
    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    jsebclark wrote:
    ...[something about going above and beyond 626.9 by measuring from the property line]...

    ...Knowledge is power...
    Scotty, we need more power!



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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    jsebclark wrote:
    ...[something about going above and beyond 626.9 by measuring from the property line]...

    ...Knowledge is power...
    Scotty, we need more power!



    (Disclaimer: Scotty not actually pictured...)


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    Regular Member PincheOgro1's Avatar
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    I might be looking at it differently, but if you get stopped, or arrested for a 626.9 violation. wouldn't it look better on you, like you've made an attemp to find the schools, and plot your routes accordingly. I think it would look better showing you've made an attempt to avoid GFSZinstead of just pleading ignorance.

    Course that's just me.

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