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Thread: Do you contact the owner/manager while setting up a OC meet & eat or get together

  1. #1
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    Lets create a discussion thread on this and not clog my OC dinner with the debate.

    I feel that it is not necessary to tell people when they setup a simple meet & eat or get together that you have to question the management/owner of a restaurant on their opinion of 2A and will they let you OC there. In my opinion no but if people want to do it feel free.

    Must you do this when your party becomes a certain size? In my opinion no but if people want to do it feel free.

    I'm am curious about other peoples opinions on this issue and I'm also curious on how hard it will be for people to find places that will coordinate it with you. I feel this will severely limit the places in which you can eat and or go when it most cases wouldnt be noticed or cared about if you just showed up.

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    I do. Every time I've hosted one.

    It's customary when hosting a large party to notify the restaurant in advance.

    EDIT: I should also add that I do it IN WRITING so that, just in case something similar to the ponderosa incident happens, I have proof that I had permission to be there.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    You ask a loaded question.

    As such, I won't join in this topic of discussion.

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    Its cheese whiz without the whiz. Common sense apply over all laws, rules and regulations.

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    dougwg wrote:
    You ask a loaded question.

    As such, I won't join in this topic of discussion.
    Loaded how? The name of the thread is the question.

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    It depends.

    I organized an informal weekday lunch and didn't ask permission. There were about six people total who showed up. If it was 20-30 people, then I'd probably give the management a heads up. If I didn't give the management a heads up, then I'd have alternate plans.

    No reason to tell the management that a bunch of people are showing up to have lunch at a restaurant. Nor do I see the need to make a big deal out of the fact that they are carrying guns, and I also don't ask permission to carry into other establishments. Some people take things too seriously sometimes.

    If it was an event where I knew people would be passing out fliers, and pamphlets, then I'd probably contact the management ahead of time.

    There's just too many variables to have one set answer. Most of the time it's, "Better to ask forgiveness than permission.", but then there are times when it's advantageous.

    Permission was sought and given at Ponderous, but it didn't seem to matter much.

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    ghostrider wrote:
    It depends.

    I organized an informal weekday lunch and didn't ask permission. There were about six people total who showed up. If it was 20-30 people, then I'd probably give the management a heads up. If I didn't give the management a heads up, then I'd have alternate plans.

    No reason to tell the management that a bunch of people are showing up to have lunch at a restaurant. Nor do I see the need to make a big deal out of the fact that they are carrying guns, and I also don't ask permission to carry into other establishments. Some people take things too seriously sometimes.

    If it was an event where I knew people would be passing out fliers, and pamphlets, then I'd probably contact the management ahead of time.

    There's just too many variables to have one set answer. Most of the time it's, "Better to ask forgiveness than permission.", but then there are times when it's advantageous.

    Permission was sought and given at Ponderous, but it didn't seem to matter much.
    +1

    Official MOC events... yes.

    Get togethers of individuals... no.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    nuff said...

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    Many places dont do call ahead seating or reservations but I dont feel that this is what the real concern by the people posting all over an OC dinner I planned. Their take was that people planning events need to disclose to management/owners their are people coming to OC. It's not about reservations. I feel discussing OC with the owners for simple party for dinner is onerous an many people would just not plan events anymore including me. Also it's not easy to get a head count. I've had events with 5-8 turn into 15-20 and vis versa. As for courtesy to a restaurant after working the business for quite a long time I can tell you this they could care less really. The only difference is you will be sat quicker if the place takes call ahead seating or reservations.

    Found it interesting Doug felt the need to post all over my meet but when I open up a thread he doesnt want to discuss it. Seems kind of strange to me.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    CV67PAT wrote:
    ghostrider wrote:
    It depends.

    I organized an informal weekday lunch and didn't ask permission. There were about six people total who showed up. If it was 20-30 people, then I'd probably give the management a heads up. If I didn't give the management a heads up, then I'd have alternate plans.

    No reason to tell the management that a bunch of people are showing up to have lunch at a restaurant. Nor do I see the need to make a big deal out of the fact that they are carrying guns, and I also don't ask permission to carry into other establishments. Some people take things too seriously sometimes.

    If it was an event where I knew people would be passing out fliers, and pamphlets, then I'd probably contact the management ahead of time.

    There's just too many variables to have one set answer. Most of the time it's, "Better to ask forgiveness than permission.", but then there are times when it's advantageous.

    Permission was sought and given at Ponderous, but it didn't seem to matter much.
    +1

    Official MOC events... yes.

    Get togethers of individuals... no.
    I agree with the above posters... and this has been my position on the topic under discussion.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  11. #11
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    mikestilly wrote:
    Many places dont do call ahead seating or reservations but I dont feel that this is what the real concern by the people posting all over an OC dinner I planned. Their take was that people planning events need to disclose to management/owners their are people coming to OC. It's not about reservations. I feel discussing OC with the owners for simple party for dinner is onerous an many people would just not plan events anymore including me. Also it's not easy to get a head count. I've had events with 5-8 turn into 15-20 and vis versa. As for courtesy to a restaurant after working the business for quite a long time I can tell you this they could care less really. The only difference is you will be sat quicker if the place takes call ahead seating or reservations.

    Found it interesting Doug felt the need to post all over my meet but when I open up a thread he doesnt want to discuss it. Seems kind of strange to me.
    Speaking of loaded...
    "People posting all over an OC dinner I planned..." ok calm down, I didn't tell you you had to do a damn thing, I made three posts, I think. I made a suggestion, that you can take or leave, and resent how your statements here seem to be worded unnecessarily pointedly.

    I feel that it is not necessary to tell people when they setup a simple meet & eat or get together that you have to question the management/owner of a restaurant on their opinion of 2A and will they let you OC there. In my opinion no but if people want to do it feel free.

    Must you do this when your party becomes a certain size? In my opinion no but if people want to do it feel free.

    I'm am curious about other peoples opinions on this issue and I'm also curious on how hard it will be for people to find places that will coordinate it with you. I feel this will severely limit the places in which you can eat and or go when it most cases wouldnt be noticed or cared about if you just showed up.
    No you don't have to call ahead for a simple meet and greet. I insinuated that if you were trying to educate and desensitize that calling ahead might help you in your goal [notwill, but might], and that the purpose of the call would not be to ask permission, but to inform them that you will be there, with intent to educate and desensitize. At this point you're no longer just having a meal, you're using their establishment as a political forum, and while there is no law against it and you don't need permission, they may be more appreciative and receptive.

    If your goal is to have a meal and meet in person a few like-minded people you met on this website, as opposed to a political statement, then there is no purpose in letting them know. Its a restaurant, they expect people to be eating there.

    This is how the question was loaded... it made assumptions before answers were even given about what the 'intent of people posting all over your other thread' were thinking. An incorrect assumption, to be frank.

    So please, read posts for intent before you get upset and start 'debate threads'.
    I think the last thing we need is even more unnecessary rifts and dissension after all the crap that has gone on this week.

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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    Many places dont do call ahead seating or reservations but I dont feel that this is what the real concern by the people posting all over an OC dinner I planned. Their take was that people planning events need to disclose to management/owners their are people coming to OC. It's not about reservations. I feel discussing OC with the owners for simple party for dinner is onerous an many people would just not plan events anymore including me. Also it's not easy to get a head count. I've had events with 5-8 turn into 15-20 and vis versa. As for courtesy to a restaurant after working the business for quite a long time I can tell you this they could care less really. The only difference is you will be sat quicker if the place takes call ahead seating or reservations.

    Found it interesting Doug felt the need to post all over my meet but when I open up a thread he doesnt want to discuss it. Seems kind of strange to me.
    Speaking of loaded...
    "People posting all over an OC dinner I planned..." ok calm down, I didn't tell you you had to do a damn thing, I made three posts, I think. I made a suggestion, that you can take or leave, and resent how your statements here seem to be worded unnecessarily pointedly.

    I feel that it is not necessary to tell people when they setup a simple meet & eat or get together that you have to question the management/owner of a restaurant on their opinion of 2A and will they let you OC there. In my opinion no but if people want to do it feel free.

    Must you do this when your party becomes a certain size? In my opinion no but if people want to do it feel free.

    I'm am curious about other peoples opinions on this issue and I'm also curious on how hard it will be for people to find places that will coordinate it with you. I feel this will severely limit the places in which you can eat and or go when it most cases wouldnt be noticed or cared about if you just showed up.
    No you don't have to call ahead for a simple meet and greet. I insinuated that if you were trying to educate and desensitize that calling ahead might help you in your goal [notwill, but might], and that the purpose of the call would not be to ask permission, but to inform them that you will be there, with intent to educate and desensitize. At this point you're no longer just having a meal, you're using their establishment as a political forum, and while there is no law against it and you don't need permission, they may be more appreciative and receptive.

    If your goal is to have a meal and meet in person a few like-minded people you met on this website, as opposed to a political statement, then there is no purpose in letting them know. Its a restaurant, they expect people to be eating there.

    This is how the question was loaded... it made assumptions before answers were even given about what the 'intent of people posting all over your other thread' were thinking. An incorrect assumption, to be frank.

    So please, read posts for intent before you get upset and start 'debate threads'.
    I think the last thing we need is even more unnecessary rifts and dissension after all the crap that has gone on this week.
    Dougwg not you. And yes me posting a meet and eat and a pile of replies on how to notify restaurants was unnecessary hence why I created a thread. I'm not upset just posting my thought but it looks like you're upset. Not much more for me to say here I've already posted my opinion. You are free to post yours and no I'm not upset I created this thread to keep it on topic.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    True...

    I still felt I should clarify though, as I did post some similar as well.

  14. #14
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    For something very large, yes. But I've only done that once.


    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    I hosted a get together in Flint quite a while back. I called ahead and asked about seating arrangements, and whether or not I needed a reservation for a large group. I told them 15 to 20 people would likely be there. I never once mentioned anything about us carrying firearms. 18 showed up. We had a great time, and were told we were welcome back anytime.
    I joined a get together at a park last year ( the name of the park eludes me at the moment ). Someone had been told that the on-site law enforcement would like to be made aware of our location, so that they could field any calls they might receive with intelligent answers. I took it upon myself to go talk to the lieutenant, out of courtesy for their request. It turns out that it was a good thing I did. The officer in charge was not the same person who had been advised of the picnic, and his last orders were something to the effect of "extreme prejudice" in the arrest/detainment of anyone openly carrying.
    He told me in no uncertain terms that anyone seen openly carrying a handgun would be arrested at gunpoint. After several minutes of trying to reason with this man, he contacted his boss, and was told our actions were legal. We were then "free" to go about our business. This was another situation where "permission" had already been obtained. I did not talk to him while openly armed, though I had my empty holster on.
    I think it's a crap shoot. Stupid things are going to happen sooner or later, and in my opinion, calling ahead and bringing up the subject of our guaranteed right can be more detrimental than just showing up armed.

    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

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    Three under my belt ! Never a boo . Know the difference between permission and Invite ? And Tell Em ALL in that Jurisdiction . Monroe ,Flatrock and Canton .

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    Just because we/someone has a right does not mean we have to exercise it with arrogance, or with a condescending attitude, or push it on others. Remember other people have rights too!. Our bottom line is to Meet, Eat, & hope some one approaches us for info. That said I would call to ask seating arrangments, or seating capacities otherwise No, but if it was a very large event, or MOC sponsored event yes.

    I'm sure everyone's opinions will surely vary, but we should remember that we are all in this together with the same goal. Nothing says we cannot all exercise our own ways of setting up these events & still reach the end result! Inform, educate, & desensitize!

    :celebrate

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    CrossPistols wrote:
    Just because we/someone has a right does not mean we have to exercise it with arrogance, or with a condescending attitude, or push it on others. Remember other people have rights too!. Our bottom line is to Meet, Eat, & hope some one approaches us for info. That said I would call to ask seating arrangments, or seating capacities otherwise No, but if it was a very large event, or MOC sponsored event yes.

    I'm sure everyone's opinions will surely vary, but we should remember that we are all in this together with the same goal. Nothing says we cannot all exercise our own ways of setting up these events & still reach the end result! Inform, educate, & desensitize!

    :celebrate
    +1

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    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    Ok, I just can't hold my mouth shut any longer!

    My take:

    When other customers see armed people there is always a chance one of those other customers will end up scared out of their wits and run to the management because "those people might rob me" or whatever goes on in their thought process. The management is then on the spot, looking to calm a panicked customer without disturbing the whole joint. Knee-jerk reactions aretypically notthe best way to handle things.

    It is for this reason that I PERSONALLY feel it is courteous to be pre-emptive and give the management of the place some information. Apossible line ofconversation could be as follows:

    [line]

    A group of associates and I are planning to stop by your place sometime tommorrow. I wanted to speak with you because we are the type of people that don't leave our security to chance and we will be legally armed. The catch is that not everyone knows that this is indeed legal, perhaps even yourself and I wanted to give you some information in the off-chanceone of your patronscomes to you with a complaint.
    [line]


    Now, you have not asked for permission, but rather gave the owner a chance to be prepared for whatever may come up. They may say they would rather not risk upsetting their customers, if so then you would have been asked to leave anyway. But I suspect that you will find more often a business owner that now sees you as a responsible person with the utmost respect for thier property. And who knows, maybe a follow-up letter to them afterwords would result in a "lawful carry welcome" sticker on the door the next time!

    AGAIN, I clarify, this is my personal opinion at the current moment. I reserve the right to change my opinion given additional information on the subject matter in the future.
    United we STAND!

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    I am planning to stop by your place sometime tommorrow. I wanted to speak with you because we are the type of people that don't leave our security to chance and we will be legally armed. The catch is that not everyone knows that this is indeed legal, perhaps even yourself and I wanted to give you some information in the off-chanceone of your patronscomes to you with a complaint.

    I'll just send this to every business that I ever plan to patronize, that way it'll quell any future problems. And monkeys will fly out of my butt.springerdave.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    springerdave wrote:
    I am planning to stop by your place sometime tommorrow. I wanted to speak with you because we are the type of people that don't leave our security to chance and we will be legally armed. The catch is that not everyone knows that this is indeed legal, perhaps even yourself and I wanted to give you some information in the off-chance¬*one of your patrons¬*comes to you with a complaint.

    ¬*I'll just send this to every business that I ever plan to patronize, that way it'll quell any future problems. And monkeys will fly out of my butt.springerdave.
    This is not for when you yourself go out to eat OC but rather when a large group is planning to do so.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Autosurgeon, at what number of persons in your party would you deem it appropriate to forewarn establishments of the intention to come armed? Two, three, five? What happens if several people just happen to show up:shock: unbeknownst to the other:what:, do you send an apology note?. When will it be unnecessary to warn establishments of the presence of armed patrons? So it is OK for me to instill fear and panic on my own, but not if I am in the company of other like minded persons.springredave.

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    springerdave wrote:
    Autosurgeon, at what number of persons in your party would you deem it appropriate to forewarn establishments of the intention to come armed? Two, three, five? What happens if several people just happen to show up:shock: unbeknownst to the other:what:, do you send an apology note?. When will it be unnecessary to warn establishments of the presence of armed patrons? So it is OK for me to instill fear and panic on my own, but not if I am in the company of other like minded persons.springredave.
    +1 IMO Educate = Polite = Knowledgeable = Respectful = Invite = Spread Word Not Panic = Winner = Educate

  24. #24
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    You must understand that no matter what kind of group you are taking out to eat it is good to know the establishments policy on groups.

    Many require notice to seat you together. And some require an Automatic 18% gratuity. Many will not do separate checks for groups.

    What this means is it is the polite thing to do when setting up an event that you know will be big and that is an official MOC educational event IE you will be having a table or the banners will be posted and it has been arranged through your coordinator that the business be given notice of what to expect from your group.

    However I have found that when you set up in advance for separate checks most places will do that even for large groups.

    And this is not asking permission per say but rather just informing them what to expect from your group... not unlike if a group with young children call ahead to find out if they have enough highchairs and booster seats.

    If they say NO then you have saved the trouble of getting kicked out and all of the hassle that can come with that.

    NOTE if you are setting up a casual meet and it will not be a MOC event then YOU can choose to do whatever you like it is your meeting.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    springerdave wrote:
    Autosurgeon, at what number of persons in your party would you deem it appropriate to forewarn establishments of the intention to come armed? Two, three, five? What happens if several people just happen to show up:shock: unbeknownst to the other:what:, do you send an apology note?. When will it be unnecessary to warn establishments of the presence of armed patrons? So it is OK for me to instill fear and panic on my own, but not if I am in the company of other like minded persons.springredave.
    Autosurgeon was right about the intent of my ficticious statement. I have never notified anyone of anything when I am about my business alone or with my family.

    To answer your valid questions to the best of my (arguably limited) reasoning:

    If you have to put a number qualifier on this, I would suggest two. And here's my thoughts - 1 man alone is alot easier for a manager/owner to approach themselves. 1 man alone can easily be responded by two officers in one cruiser (Not that it is necessarilyappropriate) so if that happens it is less likely to be a Pandora's box.

    As for several people showing up unbeknownst to each other... Well, are you sitting with strangers? You are still one person. If you do make friends that easily great, it may be in the best interest of your evening to ask for a manager. Just the simple fact of having asked for the manager, even if only to ask to pull some tables together, you have given them an opportunity to "know" you a litle bit.

    When will it be unnecessary to "warn" of armed patrons? Not fair; nobody suggested a warning in the sense I read from your question. My thoughts are not to issue a warning about armed patrons but rather to give a warning (as in "heads-up") about a very real possibility of libtarted behavior from unarmed patrons to the benefit of my group, the establishment, and possibly the PD of jurisdiction.

    I could ramble but...

    AGAIN, I clarify, this is my personal opinion at the current moment. I reserve the right to change my opinion given additional information on the subject matter in the future.
    United we STAND!

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