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Thread: Question about banned weapons

  1. #1
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    Hello, I recently found this forum and appreciate the support and action for our cause. I am a security officer(unarmed) in the Grand Rapids area. I routinely have groups of people, often drunk and coming home from the bar walk past my post and was wondering what my options are for self defense. I have a CCW but the property where I work is owned by the school district, and I would not feel comfortable OC at this location. I would like to carry a sap, but believe they are illegal in MI. I found a quoted section of MCL 750.224 saying billy clubs and bludgeoning weapons are illegal, but can not find the actual law itself. I would like to know if anyone can find the list of banned weapons in Mi. and I would like to know if extend-able batons are included. I apologize if this isn't the right forum for this question, but I didn't think you were the kinds of guys who would be too angry for the new guy asking stupid questions. Thanks!!

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    Expanding batons are not banned by name by any state law I've ever heard of.

    However, that doesn't mean they aren't technically bludgeons. I don't know of any case law on it, but the odds of a court ruling an ASP type weapon to be not a bludgeon aren't great. Plus, even if they were unquestionably legal by state law, there is no baton preemption.

    If your situation, I would get some super duper powerful pepper spray, and use it on myself until I was confident with it that it wouldn't take me out of action if I got cross exposed. That would be my primary weapon, and the back up would be a mag light.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

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  3. #3
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    Micigander is right...

    Pepper spray and a Malice Green Commemorative Issue 3 cell maglight is the way to go.

    Here's the pepper spray law:

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...ighlight=spray

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931

    750.224d Self-defense spray or foam device.Sec. 224d.
    (1) As used in this section and section 224, "self-defense spray or foam device" means a device to which all of the following apply:
    (a) The device is capable of carrying, and ejects, releases, or emits 1 of the following:
    (i) Not more than 35 grams of any combination of orthochlorobenzalmalononitrile and inert ingredients.
    (ii) A solution containing not more than 10% oleoresin capsicum.
    (b) The device does not eject, release, or emit any gas or substance that will temporarily or permanently disable, incapacitate, injure, or harm a person with whom the gas or substance comes in contact, other than the substance described in subdivision (a)(i) or (ii).
    (2) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person who uses a self-defense spray or foam device to eject, release, or emit orthochlorobenzalmalononitrile or oleoresin capsicum at another person is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2 years, or a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both.
    (3) If a person uses a self-defense spray or foam device during the commission of a crime to eject, release, or emit orthochlorobenzalmalononitrile or oleoresin capsicum or threatens to use a self-defense spray or foam device during the commission of a crime to temporarily or permanently disable another person, the judge who imposes sentence upon a conviction for that crime shall consider the defendant's use or threatened use of the self-defense spray or foam device as a reason for enhancing the sentence.
    (4) A person shall not sell a self-defense spray or foam device to a minor. A person who violates this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor.
    (5) Subsection (2) does not prohibit either of the following:
    (a) The reasonable use of a self-defense spray or foam device containing not more than 10% oleoresin capsicum by a person who is employed by a county sheriff or a chief of police and who is authorized in writing by the county sheriff or chief of police to carry and use a self-defense spray or foam device and has been trained in the use, effects, and risks of the device, while in performance of his or her official duties.
    (b) The reasonable use of a self-defense spray or foam device containing not more than 2% oleoresin capsicum by a person in the protection of a person or property under circumstances which would justify the person's use of physical force.


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    Michigander wrote:
    Expanding batons are not banned by name by any state law I've ever heard of.

    However, that doesn't mean they aren't technically bludgeons. I don't know of any case law on it, but the odds of a court ruling an ASP type weapon to be not a bludgeon aren't great. Plus, even if they were unquestionably legal by state law, there is no baton preemption.

    If your situation, I would get some super duper powerful pepper spray, and use it on myself until I was confident with it that it wouldn't take me out of action if I got cross exposed. That would be my primary weapon, and the back up would be a mag light.
    I agree with Michigander. Not to mention the use of force may not be to freindly with your company. Any physical damage you inflict may be liable by your company or the place of the contract which may end up in a legal suit. I would also request the authorization for the carry and possible use of mace/pepper spray from your company prior to carrying.

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    Thanks for the tips guys. Unfortunately I have yet to find a Mi. legal pepper spray that is worth anything. I have been sprayed with several, and they feel like a bad sunburn. I have some good pepper spray, but it is not Mi. legal. I am not to worried about legally having to defend myself, if something were to happen they would have to climb over a 8 foot chainlink fence to start something, I would probably not look like the aggressor in the situation. I just wanted to know what my options are. I think the large mag light would probably be the safest legal bet. Or maybe a pair of sap gloves.

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    BudStrohs wrote:
    Thanks for the tips guys. Unfortunately I have yet to find a Mi. legal pepper spray that is worth anything. I have been sprayed with several, and they feel like a bad sunburn. I have some good pepper spray, but it is not Mi. legal. I am not to worried about legally having to defend myself, if something were to happen they would have to climb over a 8 foot chainlink fence to start something, I would probably not look like the aggressor in the situation. I just wanted to know what my options are. I think the large mag light would probably be the safest legal bet. Or maybe a pair of sap gloves.
    Try some Fox Labs OC Spray.



    -Richard-

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    Coincidentally, I was just at their website, and the few types they do ship to Michigan sounded pretty impressive. I will probably order some. Have you or know someone who has tested it? I really don't want to do anything like that anymore.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    The fox labs stuff is nasty!!! It works well on dogs too!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Michigander wrote:
    If your situation, I would get some super duper powerful pepper spray, and use it on myself until I was confident with it that it wouldn't take me out of action if I got cross exposed. That would be my primary weapon, and the back up would be a mag light.
    Are you saying to use pepper spray on YOURSELF and try to build up a tolerance to it?

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    BudStrohs wrote:
    Thanks for the tips guys. Unfortunately I have yet to find a Mi. legal pepper spray that is worth anything. I have been sprayed with several, and they feel like a bad sunburn. I have some good pepper spray, but it is not Mi. legal. I am not to worried about legally having to defend myself, if something were to happen they would have to climb over a 8 foot chainlink fence to start something, I would probably not look like the aggressor in the situation. I just wanted to know what my options are. I think the large mag light would probably be the safest legal bet. Or maybe a pair of sap gloves.
    Pick up a 16 oz. can of Bear Spray.

    Tell them you keep it in the office just in case bears come by

  11. #11
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    T Vance wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    If your situation, I would get some super duper powerful pepper spray, and use it on myself until I was confident with it that it wouldn't take me out of action if I got cross exposed. That would be my primary weapon, and the back up would be a mag light.
    Are you saying to use pepper spray on YOURSELF and try to build up a tolerance to it?
    I can imagine a pretty funny youtube video coming soon from Michigander...

  12. #12
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Wasp spray.

    You can keep it on the desk and nobody will think anything about it. It has a concentrated stream that will shoot to about 20 feet away and it's nasty stuff.

    I hear THIS STUFF is particularly nasty.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    T Vance wrote:
    Are you saying to use pepper spray on YOURSELF and try to build up a tolerance to it?
    YES. If you can't handle a specific pepper spray, you shouldn't carry it.


    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Bronson wrote:
    Wasp spray.

    You can keep it on the desk and nobody will think anything about it. It has a concentrated stream that will shoot to about 20 feet away and it's nasty stuff.

    I hear THIS STUFF is particularly nasty.

    Bronson
    A friend of my dad's from Detroit swears by that stuff. But I wouldn't want to use it in any place a police report was likely to be taken if I used it. Usually that type of product has a label that says something about using it in ways other than specified is against federal law. Not that the feds have any right to tell me how to use it, but it wouldn't look good in court.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Just move to Detroit, the schools I have done security for in the area require me to have a side arm. LOL

    God Bless
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    God Bless

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    Keep in mind that the law prohibits the carry of any concealed weapon (excepting of course the pistol with a CPL), so if that ASP is concealed, then you are in violation of a five year felony (aka. CCW).

    I used to have a copy of that law prohibiting the possesion of blackjacks, saps, slugs, etc... but just threw it away last week. I don't see a judge excluding the ASP from that list, but then I didn't scrutinize it that much.

    Too bad you can't get your employer to approve you carrying a gun (concealed or otherwise). That would be your best option.

    I also think (just my theory) that a can of bear spray would be good. I'd carry one for my evening walks just in case of any stray dogs, but don't want to carry that much.

    Either way, if your going to carry some sort of weapon for SD while on the job, it wouldn't be a bad idea to clear it through your employer. If you have to use it, they your employer will undoubtedly find out about it anyway. Only you can decide if it's better they find out sooner than later.

    PS.
    PM me where you are. I'm in GR and live close to one of the shcools in a bad neighborhood. It'd be nice to know if it's my neighborhood your working in. Lots of drunks and druggies around here.

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    Keep in mind that the law prohibits the carry of any concealed weapon (excepting of course the pistol with a CPL), so if that ASP is concealed, then you are in violation of a five year felony (aka. CCW).
    ghostrider, could you please cite the law that you are referring to?

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    lawlessness wrote:
    Keep in mind that the law prohibits the carry of any concealed weapon (excepting of course the pistol with a CPL), so if that ASP is concealed, then you are in violation of a five year felony (aka. CCW).
    ghostrider, could you please cite the law that you are referring to?
    Did you read my post where I said," I threw it away."?

    I suppose I could look it up just as easily as you.

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    ghostrider wrote:
    lawlessness wrote:
    Keep in mind that the law prohibits the carry of any concealed weapon (excepting of course the pistol with a CPL), so if that ASP is concealed, then you are in violation of a five year felony (aka. CCW).
    ghostrider, could you please cite the law that you are referring to?
    Did you read my post where I said," I threw it away."?

    I suppose I could look it up just as easily as you.
    Here you go.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...hlight=750.224

    How long did that take?

    ETA: Oops, wrong one. Give me a few more minutes.



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    ghostrider wrote:
    ghostrider wrote:
    lawlessness wrote:
    Keep in mind that the law prohibits the carry of any concealed weapon (excepting of course the pistol with a CPL), so if that ASP is concealed, then you are in violation of a five year felony (aka. CCW).
    ghostrider, could you please cite the law that you are referring to?
    Did you read my post where I said," I threw it away."?

    I suppose I could look it up just as easily as you.
    Here you go.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...hlight=750.224

    How long did that take?

    ETA: Oops, wrong one. Give me a few more minutes.

    Here it is.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...20AND%20weapon



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    Thanks ghostrider.

    Could you help me out just a bit more and show me where exactly that
    law prohibits the carry of any concealed weapon
    as you have asserted.

  22. #22
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    The second link Ghostrider provided applies to knives and guns. The first link applies to bludgeons and gas/aerosol weapons.
    (1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess any of the following:

    d) A blackjack, slungshot, billy, metallic knuckles, sand club, sand bag, or bludgeon.

    (e) A device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance designed to render a person temporarily or permanently disabled by the ejection, release, or emission of a gas or other substance.
    So, it seems, youcould be outside of the law if you used bear or wasp spray to defend yourself from a person. My argument would be that the bear/wasp spray can isn't designed for use against a person. But as somebody else posted it may be a federalviolation to use said substance in a manner that it wasn't designed for.

    It doesn't specifically mention the illegality of concealing any of the listed items. It spells out that possession, whether concealed or not, is a felony.

    Oh, it also exempts certain self-defense sprays:
    (3) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A self-defense spray or foam device as defined in section 224d.
    So it would seem that a SD spray that falls within the limits specified in 224d would be your best, legal, option.

    Bronson
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    lawlessness wrote:
    Thanks ghostrider.

    Could you help me out just a bit more and show me where exactly that
    law prohibits the carry of any concealed weapon
    as you have asserted.
    I see what your getting at. It prohibits carrying any dangerous weapon concealed. Also, there are other exceptions in the laws (IR seeing one for pepper spray). This thread was started asking about carrying an ASP, so that is the context in which I was replying.

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    Bronson wrote:
    The second link Ghostrider provided applies to knives and guns. The first link applies to bludgeons and gas/aerosol weapons.
    (1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess any of the following:

    d) A blackjack, slungshot, billy, metallic knuckles, sand club, sand bag, or bludgeon.

    (e) A device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance designed to render a person temporarily or permanently disabled by the ejection, release, or emission of a gas or other substance.
    So, it seems, youcould be outside of the law if you used bear or wasp spray to defend yourself from a person. My argument would be that the bear/wasp spray can isn't designed for use against a person. But as somebody else posted it may be a federalviolation to use said substance in a manner that it wasn't designed for.

    It doesn't specifically mention the illegality of concealing any of the listed items. It spells out that possession, whether concealed or not, is a felony.

    Oh, it also exempts certain self-defense sprays:
    (3) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A self-defense spray or foam device as defined in section 224d.
    So it would seem that a SD spray that falls within the limits specified in 224d would be your best, legal, option.

    Bronson
    The second link also applies to, "...any other dangerous weapon."

    I couldn't find any definitions for "dangerous weapon", so it's up to each's own to decide if they want to be a test case.

    Somehow, I'm thinking that things like an ASP wouldn't past muster with subsection (d) of 750.224.

  25. #25
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    ASP's while very cool and useful are illegal to carry in Michigan unless you're a LEO.

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