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Thread: Use of non lethal rounds

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    After reading a post about the guy in Yakima shooting at fleeing criminals, what is your stance on non lethal rounds such as bean bags, rubber bullets, rock salt...?

    I keep 2 bean bags loaded in my shotgun followed by birdshot then a slug. Is use of non lethal rounds still looked apon the same as firing lethal rounds? Is there anything that covers the use of these types of rounds?

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    Good question, wish I had an answer.

    If they're in you're home and not fleeing then I'd use lethal rounds, if they're fleeing then I wouldn't shoot.

    Not sure if you can shoot someone in the back and then tie them up for the police to arrive if you're using a non lethal round. You'd probably get sued though because that's how it apparently works now. Non-lethal doesn't mean it's harmless.

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    I want some NON leather 45ACP rounds for around the house..... IF anyone knows were i can get some id love to know were.

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    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=648570

    I have to admit, my thought was being able to restrain somebody for the police officers. Such a touchy topic though and most likely wont work out well for myself. I really hate BGs thoughand wish they get the worst for their actions.

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    0V3RC10CK3D wrote:
    You'd probably get sued though because that's how it apparently works now. Non-lethal doesn't mean it's harmless.
    I think if you load your shotgun like you should consider lawsuits. A lawyer could say that you didn't mean to kill someone when you got to your birdshot/slug. What if you miss with your two bean bags and have to use the birdshot? I don't have my shotgun at my apartment, but I don't think I'd load it with anything except buckshot.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Those so called "non-lethal" rounds can be very lethal. A head shot or one dead center of the chest on someone with a heart condition can be a total show-stopper. It doesn't matter how you make them dead, you still made them dead and you will be held accountable.

    Also, a LTL round, by it's very nature does not penetrate. Heavy clothing or someone with lots of "body cushion" built in may not be incapacitated like you thought. By the time you make it to those lethal rounds you had in backup, you may well become the next casualty.

    If you'r going to shoot (hopefully with justification) then make it worthwhile. LTL rounds are best left to their primary purpose of riot control and let those who have been trained in their use do so.

    How many times have you read in the paper where European cops or Israeli Forces have used these, often in the form of rubber bullets, and have killed several rioters? Less than Lethal can also mean less than effective.
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    NavyLT wrote:
    Use of a firearm, in RCW's, is deadly force regardless of the rounds loaded in it. Personally, I am going all the way.
    Amen



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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    If my door is kicked in and some one enters my house they will recieve1 each at minimumof all leathal roundsin my inventory including hairspray and and a match!

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    NavyLT wrote:
    malichite wrote:
    I keep 2 bean bags loaded in my shotgun followed by birdshot then a slug. Is use of non lethal rounds still looked apon the same as firing lethal rounds? Is there anything that covers the use of these types of rounds?
    You left one out in your escalation of force routine - blanks.
    Actually there's one more he's missing - pointing the gun and yelling 'BANG'.

    Seriously, I agree with the majority here - If I'm using a firearm, the situation must require deadly force, and that is what should be used.
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I was shot with rock salt once. Well I ran faster than my friend so he got more than me. I am sure glad that old guy didn't use lethal rounds.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    I was shot with rock salt once. Well I ran faster than my friend so he got more than me. I am sure glad that old guy didn't use lethal rounds.








    If an intruder gets into my place he's gonna get this.....

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    or this...

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    NavyLT wrote:
    I can't believe someone would hang their keys off a gun like that! WTH? Get a belt clip, dude!
    That's like the bell around the cats neck.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    NavyLT wrote:
    DEROS72 wrote:
    or this...
    Now you're just being funny. You know dang well nothing like that would ever be found in YOUR house!
    Yeah your right Lt . But pretty cool though. In actuality I will defend my life and my property with what ever force I deem appropriate to keep both.I feel it is not my obligaion to retreat or give in to criminals that are bent on harm or theft.It is my obligation to diapatch said criminal with extreme predudiceas to not be a bother to me or anyone else.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    DEROS72 wrote:

    If an intruder gets into my place he's gonna get this....
    Sadistic bastage. You just want to watch the BG die laughing. That's cruel.


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    Deros,

    Your second photo is much more powerful in so many ways...

    Back to serious matters:

    I keep 2 bean bags loaded in my shotgun followed by birdshot then a slug.
    So this means, if you have an assailant you really need to stop, there are 3 LTL rounds in the way before you can actually send a stopper his way? Not a very good idea IMO.

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    If your not using man stopper leathal rounds on an assailant maybe you can poke him with a stick and use harsh language and he'll go away.

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    ... just changed my 12ga mag nack to slugs and buckshot...

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    NavyLT wrote:
    I can't believe someone would hang their keys off a gun like that! WTH? Get a belt clip, dude!
    It's just the KEYS that bothers you?
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


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    There have been many good arguments brought up and I may just end up with all leathel rounds.

    kparker wrote:
    Deros,

    Your second photo is much more powerful in so many ways...

    Back to serious matters:

    I keep 2 bean bags loaded in my shotgun followed by birdshot then a slug.
    So this means, if you have an assailant you really need to stop, there are 3 LTL rounds in the way before you can actually send a stopper his way?* Not a very good idea IMO.
    I have to admit though, if the assailant is already on top of you, the shotgun will not be any use to you, however if they are charging you or you hit them with one, you will slow them down. With that said, think about how long it really takes you to pump out a few rounds from a pump action shotgun. I am pretty sure that one bean bag hitting the guy will knock him off balance/guard and you will have more than enough time to finish him off if you see he has a weapon or is a threat, if not, he runs and you didn't have to take his life. Just my thinking prior to posting in this thread.

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    very true. Like I said, many of the arguments I think will change my way. Those were my thoughts and justification to myself prior to this thread.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    malichite wrote:
    After reading a post about the guy in Yakima shooting at fleeing criminals, what is your stance on non lethal rounds such as bean bags, rubber bullets, rock salt...?

    I keep 2 bean bags loaded in my shotgun followed by birdshot then a slug. Is use of non lethal rounds still looked apon the same as firing lethal rounds? Is there anything that covers the use of these types of rounds?
    There is 00 buck in my shotgun in the bedroom. If someone is in my home univited there can only be one reason, to do harm to me and my family. The only non lethal 'round' would be the empty shotgun being used as a club.
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