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Thread: You don't need a gun..

  1. #1
    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    3 Seattle bus tunnel guards watch brutal beating





    By GENE JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer –

    SEATTLE – A 15-year-old girl who was badly beaten and robbed in a Seattle bus tunnel as three unarmed security guards looked on told investigators that she thought the men would protect her.

    The statements were revealed in court papers filed Wednesday against the teen girl accused of attacking her and the three young men accused of stealing her purse, phone and iPod. The four were all charged with first-degree robbery.

    The victim told a King County sheriff's detective that the group followed her from a nearby department store into the bus tunnel at Westlake Station on Jan. 28, and she deliberately stood next to the three guards.

    The guards didn't intervene, though. They have standing orders to "observe and report," so they called police but did nothing else as another 15-year-old girl punched and repeatedly kicked the victim in the head.

    Government officials as well as executives at Olympic Security Services Inc., which employs the guards, are reviewing that protocol after the guards' response was caught on surveillance video.

    "I went to the security and told them that these kids were trying to jump me," the girl said. "I know that I am about to get jumped and I am hanging around the guards to try and get protection. ... I thought the security guards would defend me."

    The girl, who is black, also told the detective that the altercation began at a nearby department store, where some in the group made threatening comments that she had "nice things" and that she acts "white."

    Two Seattle police officers noticed the escalating situation and kicked the group out of the Macy's, then brought the girl and her friend to another exit, the victim said. She reported that she asked the officers for an escort to the bus tunnel, just below the department store, but the officers refused.

    "Had these officers known what was to transpire, they probably would have paid for a cab for this victim to be taken safely to her home, but they didn't know. They broke up a couple of disturbances and provided the victim an opportunity to leave the area via bus," said Sgt. Sean Whitcomb, a Seattle police spokesman.

    One of the defendants, Dominique Whitaker, told detectives that earlier in the evening the victim had pepper-sprayed another person in the group.

    The victim, who reported that she lost consciousness during the attack, was not hospitalized. She said she has a potentially fatal heart condition, and tried to protect her chest as she was being kicked.

    King County Sheriff's Sgt. John Urquhart said the guards were right to follow their training.

    "If you're a bank teller and you do something other than give them the money, you're going to get fired," Urquhart said. "We don't expect civilians to take police action. In this case, it was a violent fight, and they were outnumbered by this pack of people 3-to-1."

    Metro Transit General Manager Kevin Desmond and other King County officials were less forgiving.

    "We are very disappointed in what people see in that video," Desmond said. "It was absolutely unacceptable. I know the Olympic Security folks were also disappointed in the response, but again, the employees were following the letter of the agreement."

    Metro Transit contracts with the King County Sheriff's Office for 68 police officers, and supplements that force with civilian guards provided by Olympic Security Services Inc. of Tukwila, Wash. All three of the guards involved are Olympic employees.

    The guards' duties include helping customers and reporting suspicious objects, disruptive behavior and equipment problems.

    Olympic Security President Mark Vinson did not immediately return calls seeking comment, but Desmond said the company is quickly working up a proposed contract revision, which could include additional training and new guidelines on how and when guards should intervene.

    Other options include hiring armed guards.

    Unarmed guards could put themselves and others at risk if they intervene in certain situations. But this incident was largely a fight between two teenage girls, and there does not appear to be any indication that the larger group would have become involved if the guards broke it up, Desmond said.

    "If I was there on the platform I don't know that I would have stood there," he said. "It's their job to be down there. The people at Olympic Security had the same human response: 'Why didn't we step in to protect the girl on the ground?'"

    The girl charged with being the primary attacker faces up to 2 1/2 years in juvenile detention if convicted. Whitaker, 18, and Latroy D. Hayman, 20, each face a sentence of 31 to 41 months in prison if convicted, and the third adult defendant, Tyrone J. Watson, 18, faces a sentence of 36 to 48 months in prison.

    It was not immediately clear if any had obtained lawyers.
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

  2. #2
    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    I don't know about you, but I'm not going to risk my life by stopping a fight. If they want to protect themselves, they need to arm themselves, with fists or other tools.

    Just my .02

  3. #3
    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Don't get me started on this shizz. Watching this video this morning pissed me off so much because I knew it could have been anyone. This is one of the reasons I do not let my girlfriend go home on the bus alone.




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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    King County Sheriff's Sgt. John Urquhart said the guards were right to follow their training.

    "If you're a bank teller and you do something other than give them the money, you're going to get fired," Urquhart said. "We don't expect civilians to take police action. In this case, it was a violent fight, and they were outnumbered by this pack of people 3-to-1."


    I am not going to pass judgment on anyone else but for me if someone where to die because of my lack of "interfering" I would feel very blood guilty. Now if it is just fist-a-cuffs between two men, so be it let 'em go. But a mobbing?

    And Urquhart is simply wrong, we are the law.

    http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

    There were 4 people and 3 guards or did I miss something?

    Techno is there any video available of this that you know of? Or is Seattle keeping that under wraps?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    There is no way in hell that I would stand there and watch some 15 yr old girl get kicked into unconciousness and not try to stop it, security guard or not, armed or not. That someone could do that and not get involved shows a complete lack of disregard for others and their lack of honorin being a man. That video makes me absolutely disgusted, to see these guys standing literally inches away and doing nothing. What a bunch of gutless worms, regardless of what "company policy" is. Anyone in this forum that wouldn't stop this situation should seriously reconsider why they carry.

  6. #6
    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:


    Techno is there any video available of this that you know of? Or is Seattle keeping that under wraps?
    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/84021562.html

    Video has been up since morning.


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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    mb419 wrote:
    There is no way in hell that I would stand there and watch some 15 yr old girl get kicked into unconciousness and not try to stop it, security guard or not, armed or not. That someone could do that and not get involved shows a complete lack of disregard for others and their lack of honorin being a man. That video makes me absolutely disgusted, to see these guys standing literally inches away and doing nothing. What a bunch of gutless worms, regardless of what "company policy" is. Anyone in this forum that wouldn't stop this situation should seriously reconsider why they carry.
    +100

  8. #8
    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    M1Gunr wrote:
    mb419 wrote:
    There is no way in hell that I would stand there and watch some 15 yr old girl get kicked into unconciousness and not try to stop it, security guard or not, armed or not. That someone could do that and not get involved shows a complete lack of disregard for others and their lack of honorin being a man. That video makes me absolutely disgusted, to see these guys standing literally inches away and doing nothing. What a bunch of gutless worms, regardless of what "company policy" is. Anyone in this forum that wouldn't stop this situation should seriously reconsider why they carry.
    +100
    -100

    I don't know if they have a gun or knife, or if someone is going to come up behind me and knock me unconscious. You guys can get involved. It is not my job to protect any random person out there.

    When SHTF, you're on your own.

  9. #9
    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    swatspyder wrote:
    M1Gunr wrote:
    mb419 wrote:
    There is no way in hell that I would stand there and watch some 15 yr old girl get kicked into unconciousness and not try to stop it, security guard or not, armed or not. That someone could do that and not get involved shows a complete lack of disregard for others and their lack of honorin being a man. That video makes me absolutely disgusted, to see these guys standing literally inches away and doing nothing. What a bunch of gutless worms, regardless of what "company policy" is. Anyone in this forum that wouldn't stop this situation should seriously reconsider why they carry.
    +100
    -100

    I don't know if they have a gun or knife, or if someone is going to come up behind me and knock me unconscious. You guys can get involved. It is not my job to protect any random person out there.

    When SHTF, you're on your own.
    Uhh...that can happen at anytime. One of my friends wasn't even involved in a fight and some big dude just came and jacked his mp3 player right off him. You however want to wait to take action. Someone might take action on you suddenly and maybe you won't even have a chance to defend yourself then!


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  10. #10
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Thanks Poo.

    That is sickening, I definitely wouldn't have stood by and let that happen. What a bunch of asses and Urquart needs to go, he is out of touch. That girl was out cold and was getting kicked in the head. The curse words that I just uttered. Wow!!! Unfreaking believable. And she asked for police help and they refused to do any thing further!!!!!!
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  11. #11
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    King County Sheriff's Sgt. John Urquhart said the guards were right to follow their training.

    "If you're a bank teller and you do something other than give them the money, you're going to get fired," Urquhart said. "We don't expect civilians to take police action. In this case, it was a violent fight, and they were outnumbered by this pack of people 3-to-1."


    I am not going to pass judgment on anyone else but for me if someone where to die because of my lack of "interfering" I would feel very blood guilty. Now if it is just fist-a-cuffs between two men, so be it let 'em go. But a mobbing?

    And Urquhart is simply wrong, we are the law.

    http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

    There were 4 people and 3 guards or did I miss something?

    Techno is there any video available of this that you know of? Or is Seattle keeping that under wraps?
    +33 1/3

    WTF

    Just... W...T...F ?!?!

    If someone is down on the ground, being repeatedly kicked in the head, far as I'm concerned their life is in immediate jeopardy and if I can do anything I damn sure will, if no other (selfish) reason that I wouldn't want to go thru life with the image of a person being beaten to death while I did nothing burned into my retinas.

    I've had a few fights break out on my bus over the years. Always under a similar "do not interfere" policy. Fortunately, as you said, it's always been just fisticuffs between two punks. But if I ever thought someone's life was in immediate danger I'm damn well gonna step in and do what I can. There's always a fire extinguisher right where I can get to it.

    Just the fact that so many people can stand by doing absolutely nothing really burns me up. And that one guard who's more concerned with keeping a frigging shopping bag off the light rain track!

    If that train had come by a couple minutes sooner that girl probably would be dead right now.


    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  12. #12
    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    Poosharker wrote:
    swatspyder wrote:
    M1Gunr wrote:
    mb419 wrote:
    There is no way in hell that I would stand there and watch some 15 yr old girl get kicked into unconciousness and not try to stop it, security guard or not, armed or not. That someone could do that and not get involved shows a complete lack of disregard for others and their lack of honorin being a man. That video makes me absolutely disgusted, to see these guys standing literally inches away and doing nothing. What a bunch of gutless worms, regardless of what "company policy" is. Anyone in this forum that wouldn't stop this situation should seriously reconsider why they carry.
    +100
    -100

    I don't know if they have a gun or knife, or if someone is going to come up behind me and knock me unconscious. You guys can get involved. It is not my job to protect any random person out there.

    When SHTF, you're on your own.
    Uhh...that can happen at anytime. One of my friends wasn't even involved in a fight and some big dude just came and jacked his mp3 player right off him. You however want to wait to take action. Someone might take action on you suddenly and maybe you won't even have a chance to defend yourself then!
    Like I said, you CANNOT rely on other people to protect you. YOU are the only one that can protect yourself.

    That is why we ARM ourselves, with knowledge, defensive training, and firearms training...

  13. #13
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    swatspyder wrote:

    I don't know if they have a gun or knife, or if someone is going to come up behind me and knock me unconscious. You guys can get involved. It is not my job to protect any random person out there.

    When SHTF, you're on your own.
    "First they came for the communists, but I did not speak out, because I was not a communist. Then they came for the trade-unionists, but I did not speak out because I was not a trade-unionist. Then they came for the Jews, but I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  14. #14
    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    swatspyder wrote:
    Poosharker wrote:
    swatspyder wrote:
    M1Gunr wrote:
    mb419 wrote:
    There is no way in hell that I would stand there and watch some 15 yr old girl get kicked into unconciousness and not try to stop it, security guard or not, armed or not. That someone could do that and not get involved shows a complete lack of disregard for others and their lack of honorin being a man. That video makes me absolutely disgusted, to see these guys standing literally inches away and doing nothing. What a bunch of gutless worms, regardless of what "company policy" is. Anyone in this forum that wouldn't stop this situation should seriously reconsider why they carry.
    +100
    -100

    I don't know if they have a gun or knife, or if someone is going to come up behind me and knock me unconscious. You guys can get involved. It is not my job to protect any random person out there.

    When SHTF, you're on your own.
    Uhh...that can happen at anytime. One of my friends wasn't even involved in a fight and some big dude just came and jacked his mp3 player right off him. You however want to wait to take action. Someone might take action on you suddenly and maybe you won't even have a chance to defend yourself then!
    Like I said, you CANNOT rely on other people to protect you. YOU are the only one that can protect yourself.

    That is why we ARM ourselves, with knowledge, defensive training, and firearms training...
    Well swatty, that damn well could have been your friend. From what I read on komo, she wasn't looking for trouble, she was asking for help.

    I suggest you train up everyone that you care for because if there are more people with your mentality, your loved ones are in some deep shizz if something like that happens.


    Edited to add:
    +1 Metalhead47 on that quote.


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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    swatspyder wrote:
    Poosharker wrote:
    swatspyder wrote:
    M1Gunr wrote:
    mb419 wrote: +100
    -100
    That is why we ARM ourselves, with knowledge, defensive training, and firearms training...
    But Poo and this poor girl are too young to legally protect themselves.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  16. #16
    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    This was the main topic on Dori Monson's talk show today. I'm also appalled. I personally would hope that society would have enough moral balls to say "damn my job" and help the victimized person. How are these "security guards" able to look at themselves in the mirror. (LOTS OF BAD WORDS INSERTED HERE )
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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    This isn't a case of playing Rambo & jumping in to stop a bank heist or armed robbery.

    We're talking about another person being murdered right in front of you and doing nothing. Personally, I could not live with that on my conscience. If I step in and get popped in the back of the head by some other clown, at least I go to my Maker having done something.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  18. #18
    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    Metalhead47 wrote:
    This isn't a case of playing Rambo & jumping in to stop a bank heist or armed robbery.

    We're talking about another person being murdered right in front of you and doing nothing. Personally, I could not live with that on my conscience. If I step in and get popped in the back of the head by some other clown, at least I go to my Maker having done something.
    In the case of the security guards, they should have stood to block her. But it is NOT their responsibility to protect the girl.

    Just what would have happened had the guards not been there at all and the same exact events occurred... Who would protect the girl? The only person would have been herself.

    Do we all forget that we have legs? I mean... Why is it no one seems to remember that people can RUN!

  19. #19
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Metalhead47 wrote:
    This isn't a case of playing Rambo & jumping in to stop a bank heist or armed robbery.

    We're talking about another person being murdered right in front of you and doing nothing. Personally, I could not live with that on my conscience. If I step in and get popped in the back of the head by some other clown, at least I go to my Maker having done something.
    +1
    Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.
    Too bad we don't know the victim and the family I would send a card. I feel so sh&*%y about what happened. Let them know there are people out there who care. They must feel pretty distraught about what happened. I would hate to think about my 15 yr. old daughter going through that. Disgusting.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  20. #20
    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Well. it was on the down low before, but now it's going to be blasted with the news coverage.

    Open Season

    Attention muggers/jumpers/whatever moron you are!

    The Metro tunnel is violence heaven as seen in this video.

    Come on down, nobody will fight back, our "guards" only guard the image, not the Metro customers.

    Edited to add:

    Swat, she went from a department store down to the tunnel to the guards, AFTER the POLICE broke it up.


    Two Seattle police officers noticed the escalating situation and kicked the group out of the Macy's, then brought the girl and her friend to another exit, the victim said. She reported that she asked the officers for an escort to the bus tunnel, just below the department store, but the officers refused.
    To serve and protect my ass. Wait, they wouldn't even protect my ass. :shock:


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  21. #21
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    swatspyder wrote:
    Metalhead47 wrote:
    In the case of the security guards, they should have stood to block her. But it is NOT their responsibility to protect the girl.

    Just what would have happened had the guards not been there at all and the same exact events occurred... Who would protect the girl? The only person would have been herself.

    Do we all forget that we have legs? I mean... Why is it no one seems to remember that people can RUN!
    Dude this ain't about responsibility, it's about being human. If I see some old lady stranded on the side of the road in the rain, it's not my responsibility to stop & help her either. But if I can help someone in need, I will. And someone getting kicked in the head is damn well in need!

    Wasn't even that riled up till I actually looked at the video. My wife & I both agreed without hesitation, soon as the headkicking started our guns would have been out. And legally justified at that point.

    And as long as you're going off on responsibility, remember it's still against the law for someone under 21 to carry a firearm for self defense. Under 18 can't possess darn near anything for self defense. And knowing that is just one more reason to do something.



    Edit to add: Ho yeah:quirky, here goes another 10-page OCDO slugfest. Now where's that popcorn smiley......
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  22. #22
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    I look at this as another example of when seconds count LEOs are minutes away. Im friends with plenty, and even they admit most of the time your going to have to defend yourself. Thats the problem with Rent-a-Cops. They have no authority. Sadly I can see that if one of them stepped in to stop it, and he had to put the assailant down, some parent would have been screaming for the guys head. They beat my daughter...yada yada. Lawsuit and potentially ruin the guys life. Joe Q Public simply isnt trained to handle violence. Most are never exposed to it, much less any type of defensive moves that can be used. And I have to ask....faced with that type of situation, if a weapon was involved, who would have it in them to shoot a 15yo? I think that any of us would as an extreme last measure to protect ourselves, but what if the attack wasnt directed towards us as in this case? kid vs beaten kid? I think that I prolly would have gotten involved passively, but unfortunately in this jacked up world we live in there is way to much suing, lawsuits, and liability. Thats why you carry umbrella insurance.

  23. #23
    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    I really hate to be the devil's advocate, but...

    :?

    To the extent that I am going to help someone in THIS EXACT situation, as a bystander, I am going to call 911. I WILL NOT enter into a fight, and risk having to defend myself out there and in court, UNLESS, it is someone I know or love.

    As hard as it is to see this kind of stuff, my life means a lot to me, my family and friends. I am not going to save another life, if the risk to my own is high. With the mob that was around her, you can be sure that I will not get involved. If it was a couple people on one, then maybe. But there was just too many individuals in that area.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    You are either a sheep, wolf or sheepdog. I don't believe there is another position. I have always known and in the few instances in my life been in the situation, I HAVE HEADED TOWARDS DANGER to protect an innocent. Life is too precious and I could not ignore that in this situation. (Now if there was two gang bangers going at it I would of called 911 and left.)
    Live Free or Die!

  25. #25
    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    swatspyder wrote:

    As hard as it is to see this kind of stuff, my life means a lot to me, my family and friends. I am not going to save another life, if the risk to my own is high.
    Well it's a good thing you have told us now, I most likely won't be hanging around you knowing your life is too important.

    Let that 15 year old girl get her head kicked against the cold, hard ground. Pffft. It ain't like she has any family, or friends, or that care about her.

    I am sure they would be happy knowing nobody stepped in to help her as she was beaten because they might have put themselves at risk.


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