You don't need a gun..

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swatspyder wrote:

Metalhead47 wrote: In the case of the security guards, they should have stood to block her. But it is NOT their responsibility to protect the girl.

Just what would have happened had the guards not been there at all and the same exact events occurred... Who would protect the girl? The only person would have been herself.

Do we all forget that we have legs? I mean... Why is it no one seems to remember that people can RUN!

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Dude this ain't about responsibility, it's about being human. If I see some old lady stranded on the side of the road in the rain, it's not my responsibility to stop & help her either. But if I can help someone in need, I will. And someone getting kicked in the head is damn well in need!

Wasn't even that riled up till I actually looked at the video. My wife & I both agreed without hesitation, soon as the headkicking started our guns would have been out. And legally justified at that point.

And as long as you're going off on responsibility, remember it's still against the law for someone under 21 to carry a firearm for self defense. Under 18 can't possess darn near anything for self defense. And knowing that is just one more reason to do something.



Edit to add: Ho yeah:quirky, here goes another 10-page OCDO slugfest. Now where's that popcorn smiley......

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I look at this as another example of when seconds count LEOs are minutes away. Im friends with plenty, and even they admit most of the time your going to have to defend yourself. Thats the problem with Rent-a-Cops. They have no authority. Sadly I can see that if one of them stepped in to stop it, and he had to put the assailant down, some parent would have been screaming for the guys head. They beat my daughter...yada yada. Lawsuit and potentially ruin the guys life. Joe Q Public simply isnt trained to handle violence. Most are never exposed to it, much less any type of defensive moves that can be used. And I have to ask....faced with that type of situation, if a weapon was involved, who would have it in them to shoot a 15yo? I think that any of us would as an extreme last measure to protect ourselves, but what if the attack wasnt directed towards us as in this case? kid vs beaten kid? I think that I prolly would have gotten involved passively, but unfortunately in this jacked up world we live in there is way to much suing, lawsuits, and liability. Thats why you carry umbrella insurance.

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I really hate to be the devil's advocate, but...

:?

To the extent that I am going to help someone in THIS EXACT situation, as a bystander, I am going to call 911. I WILL NOT enter into a fight, and risk having to defend myself out there and in court, UNLESS, it is someone I know or love.

As hard as it is to see this kind of stuff, my life means a lot to me, my family and friends. I am not going to save another life, if the risk to my own is high. With the mob that was around her, you can be sure that I will not get involved. If it was a couple people on one, then maybe. But there was just too many individuals in that area.

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You are either a sheep, wolf or sheepdog. I don't believe there is another position. I have always known and in the few instances in my life been in the situation, I HAVE HEADED TOWARDS DANGER to protect an innocent. Life is too precious and I could not ignore that in this situation. (Now if there was two gang bangers going at it I would of called 911 and left.)

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swatspyder wrote:

As hard as it is to see this kind of stuff, my life means a lot to me, my family and friends. I am not going to save another life, if the risk to my own is high.

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Well it's a good thing you have told us now, I most likely won't be hanging around you knowing your life is too important.

Let that 15 year old girl get her head kicked against the cold, hard ground. Pffft. It ain't like she has any family, or friends, or that care about her.

I am sure they would be happy knowing nobody stepped in to help her as she was beaten because they might have put themselves at risk.

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I kinda have to agree with you. However Ive also been in the situation, and didnt even hesitate. Ive always hated big guys picking on the defenceless. When ever I got in a fight my rule was, once you hit the ground Im done with you. If you get back up Ill put you back down again.I never picked a fight, but I was more than willing to defend. Im very passive-agressive. Part of that is that Im a big guy. 6'4. I also have learned to look for the signs of weapons. I think part of it as well is Ive been involved in martial arts for years. I think thats the biggest difference. Ive been in the situations, your average person hasnt. That having been said I wont ever fault someone else for their decision. We all have our own opinions and beliefs.

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The story definitely makes my blood boil and any able bodied person should have stepped in and at the very least made the assailant keep their distance, not necessarily fought them. You can stand between two people and defend someone without swinging fists, they were both 15....I doubt the girl would have thrown punches at someone who could swing back.


However, In watching the video the girl who as assaulted spent a good bit of time chasing the other girl til she fell over and both girls seemed to be of equal size, the security guards could have easily been confused as to what was happening or who was the bad guy upfront, but by the time someone is laying on the ground getting their head stomped on that should have been clear.

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Bodily injury or harm to your fellow peers around you. I would of shot her dead if she did not comply to my demands at gun point.

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Wow...does the forum go down at a set time everynight? I think the biggest thing that PMO about this was the fact that the guy stood by when the chick came back for the head shot on the ground. The chick on the ground is extremely lucky to still be alive. I really think they should be charging the assailant with Attempted murder, not just robbery. If you stomp on someones head when they are on the ground you are only intending to do one thing.

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Poosharker wrote:

swatspyder wrote:

As hard as it is to see this kind of stuff, my life means a lot to me, my family and friends. I am not going to save another life, if the risk to my own is high.

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Well it's a good thing you have told us now, I most likely won't be hanging around you knowing your life is too important.

Let that 15 year old girl get her head kicked against the cold, hard ground. Pffft. It ain't like she has any family, or friends, or that care about her.

I am sure they would be happy knowing nobody stepped in to help her as she was beaten because they might have put themselves at risk.

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Please quote my whole statement if you are going to quote that line.


I really hate to be the devil's advocate, but...

:?

To the extent that I am going to help someone in THIS EXACT situation, as a bystander, I am going to call 911. I WILL NOT enter into a fight, and risk having to defend myself out there and in court, UNLESS, it is someone I know or love.

As hard as it is to see this kind of stuff, my life means a lot to me, my family and friends. I am not going to save another life, if the risk to my own is high. With the mob that was around her, you can be sure that I will not get involved. If it was a couple people on one, then maybe. But there was just too many individuals in that area.

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swatspyder wrote:

Please quote my whole statement if you are going to quote that line.


I really hate to be the devil's advocate, but...

:?

To the extent that I am going to help someone in THIS EXACT situation, as a bystander, I am going to call 911. I WILL NOT enter into a fight, and risk having to defend myself out there and in court, UNLESS, it is someone I know or love.

As hard as it is to see this kind of stuff, my life means a lot to me, my family and friends. I am not going to save another life, if the risk to my own is high. With the mob that was around her, you can be sure that I will not get involved. If it was a couple people on one, then maybe. But there was just too many individuals in that area.

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Gonna call 911 in the tunnel right? Of course cell phones work in the tunnel.

Gonna call the guards to call the police right? Of course the guards would definitely help.

Whatcha gon do now? You gonna yell "Hey you stop it!"??

Too many individuals? What do you carry 5 rounds in your gun?

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I cannot understand why you wouldn't think of defending the defenseless, Swat. It is obvious that she cannot carry a weapon, and with 4 attackers there probably wouldn't be enough pepper spray in a can to stop them. What then? Bust out some Walker Texas Ranger type moves?

Is it not our obligation as intelligent, humane and concerned citizens to defend those who are truly unable to defend themselves? If this was a "girl" fight, there is no way I would step in. Nevertheless, in this case I would do everything within my power, my rights and her right to life, liberty and happiness to DEFEND her.

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Metalhead47 wrote:

And that one guard who's more concerned with keeping a frigging shopping bag off the light rain track! :banghead:

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BTW, that wasn't a security guard, that was her getting her bag JACKED by one of the "tough" dudes in the mob.

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Stretch wrote:

I cannot understand why you wouldn't think of defending the defenseless, Swat. It is obvious that she cannot carry a weapon, and with 4 attackers there probably wouldn't be enough pepper spray in a can to stop them. What then? Bust out some Walker Texas Ranger type moves?

Is it not our obligation as intelligent, humane and concerned citizens to defend those who are truly unable to defend themselves? If this was a "girl" fight, there is no way I would step in. Nevertheless, in this case I would do everything within my power, my rights and her right to life, liberty and happiness to DEFEND her.

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It's risk vs. reward.

Also remember, no good deed goes unpunished...

Just be ready for any lawsuit that may be brought against you for any actions you took or did not take while trying to use force to help her.

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swatspyder wrote:

Poosharker wrote:

swatspyder wrote:

As hard as it is to see this kind of stuff, my life means a lot to me, my family and friends. I am not going to save another life, if the risk to my own is high.

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Well it's a good thing you have told us now, I most likely won't be hanging around you knowing your life is too important.

Let that 15 year old girl get her head kicked against the cold, hard ground. Pffft. It ain't like she has any family, or friends, or that care about her.

I am sure they would be happy knowing nobody stepped in to help her as she was beaten because they might have put themselves at risk.

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Please quote my whole statement if you are going to quote that line.


I really hate to be the devil's advocate, but...

:?

To the extent that I am going to help someone in THIS EXACT situation, as a bystander, I am going to call 911. I WILL NOT enter into a fight, and risk having to defend myself out there and in court, UNLESS, it is someone I know or love.

As hard as it is to see this kind of stuff, my life means a lot to me, my family and friends. I am not going to save another life, if the risk to my own is high. With the mob that was around her, you can be sure that I will not get involved. If it was a couple people on one, then maybe. But there was just too many individuals in that area.

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Wow. :banghead:Tell that to Kitty Genovesewho was raped, robbed and murdered in NY while dozens of people heard and some saw what was going on and did absolutely NOTHING. Those people said they did not want to be involved. And that is sad.

The bystander effect is alive. (Diffusion of Responsibility)

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/28/california.gang.rape.bystander/

Imminent danger, by being unconscious and getting kicked in the head and you want to call 911? That's akin to your doctor giving you surgery by cutting out the cancer in your body before giving you CPR while having a heart attack..... Probably too late, eh?

XD

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The Kitty case was blown out of proportion and didn't happen that way. It was an errant reporter who basically made that up. I'm not on computer or I'd cite. Read Superfreakonomics its discussed there.

We can point to the recent California incident though to support your argument.

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poosharker +1
swatspyder -1
Metalhead47 +1

poo and Metal, good arguments, good conviction, I agree wholeheartedly. swatspyder, there comes a point sometimes when you have to decide what kind of person you are, what you believe and how far you will go to protect what you believe. What right would I have to go home safe and sound to my wife and family if I had just stood by and let a person be murdered in front of my eyes? I realise this girl didn't die, thank God, but she very well could have, and anyone watching would know she was in mortal peril.

We have certain responsibilities that are given us simply by being human adults, and one of those is to protect all those in our community, not just those who are dear to US because everyone is dear to SOMEONE else in our community. We especially must protect those who cannot protect themselves, such as an ill young girl who is having her head smashed into an immovable object, even after she is clearly defeated. This is not something you can stand by and watch NO MATTER THE PERSONAL PERIL if you have one shred of that old thing no one remembers called honor, or that other thing that was pronounced dead some years ago called conscience.

If this situation occurred for me and I was not armed (...riiiiight, but just for sake of argument), I would put my life on the line as a shield for this girl. Nothing short of that would allow me to continue to existas anything that could be called a "man."

My wife would be devastated if I were taken from her in such a way, but I know she would know why I did it, and she would know that there could not be another option for me. I am a pretty selfish person I hate to say, but that can only extend so far...

I mean no disrespect to anyone, but a topic such as this inflames me, my sense of honor, conscience, justice and what it is to be a man AND a human being.

CRA

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Ok we can sit here and tell each other hwat we would have done, but has anyone asked the question WHY HAVE SECURITY GUARDS IF THEY ARE NOT THERE TO MAKE THE PLACE SECURE!

Just about any employee can help customers, notice suspicious activities and call 911 they could save a bunch of money by firing their security force.

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FunkTrooper wrote:

Ok we can sit here and tell each other hwat we would have done, but has anyone asked the question WHY HAVE SECURITY GUARDS IF THEY ARE NOT THERE TO MAKE THE PLACE SECURE!

Just about any employee can help customers, notice suspicious activities and call 911 they could save a bunch of money by firing their security force.

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This question has already been answered.

Their answer (the agencies) "To observe and report".

My answer "To protect the image of the tunnel to make people feel safe"

But phones don't work down there, so you need radios, and I guess you need guards to work the radios...to call for help of course...

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they could save a bunch of money by firing their security force.

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What makes you think unarmed security is highly paid?