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Thread: Is there an option to not be involoved?

  1. #1
    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    I wonder if the company that governs the security guards and the guards themselves should be accessories to assault.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35340001...me_and_courts/

    3 Seattle bus tunnel guards watch brutal beatingThey follow their company's rules, call police, don't get involved
    SEATTLE - A 15-year-old girl who was badly beaten and robbed in a Seattle bus tunnel as three unarmed security guards looked on told investigators that she thought the men would protect her.The statements were revealed in court papers filed Wednesday against the teen girl accused of attacking her and the three young men accused of stealing her purse, phone and iPod. The four were all charged with first-degree robbery.
    The victim told a King County sheriff's detective that the group followed her from a nearby department store into the bus tunnel at Westlake Station on Jan. 28, and she deliberately stood next to the three guards.
    The guards didn't intervene, though. They have standing orders to "observe and report," so they called police but did nothing else as another 15-year-old girl punched and repeatedly kicked the victim in the head.Government officials as well as executives at Olympic Security Services Inc., which employs the guards, are reviewing that protocol after the guards' response was caught on surveillance video.
    Thought they ‘would defend me’
    "I went to the security and told them that these kids were trying to jump me," the girl said. "I know that I am about to get jumped and I am hanging around the guards to try and get protection. ... I thought the security guards would defend me."
    The girl, who is black, also told the detective that the altercation began at a nearby department store, where some in the group made threatening comments that she had "nice things" and that she acts "white."
    Two Seattle police officers noticed the escalating situation and kicked the group out of the Macy's, then brought the girl and her friend to another exit, the victim said. She reported that she asked the officers for an escort to the bus tunnel, just below the department store, but the officers refused.
    The Seattle Police Department did not immediately return a call seeking comment.
    One of the defendants, Dominique Whitaker, told detectives that earlier in the evening the victim had pepper-sprayed another person in the group.
    The victim, who reported that she lost consciousness during the attack, was not hospitalized. She said she has a potentially fatal heart condition, and tried to protect her chest as she was being kicked.
    King County Sheriff's Sgt. John Urquhart said the guards were right to follow their training.
    "If you're a bank teller and you do something other than give them the money, you're going to get fired," Urquhart said. "We don't expect civilians to take police action. In this case, it was a violent fight, and they were outnumbered by this pack of people 3-to-1."
    Others are ‘very disappointed’
    Metro Transit General Manager Kevin Desmond and other King County officials were less forgiving.
    "We are very disappointed in what people see in that video," Desmond said. "It was absolutely unacceptable. I know the Olympic Security folks were also disappointed in the response, but again, the employees were following the letter of the agreement."
    Metro Transit contracts with the King County Sheriff's Office for 68 police officers, and supplements that force with civilian guards provided by Olympic Security Services Inc. of Tukwila, Wash. All three of the guards involved are Olympic employees.
    The guards' duties include helping customers and reporting suspicious objects, disruptive behavior and equipment problems.
    Olympic Security President Mark Vinson did not immediately return calls seeking comment, but Desmond said the company is quickly working up a proposed contract revision, which could include additional training and new guidelines on how and when guards should intervene.
    Other options include hiring armed guards.
    Unarmed guards could put themselves and others at risk if they intervene in certain situations. But this incident was largely a fight between two teenage girls, and there does not appear to be any indication that the larger group would have become involved if the guards broke it up, Desmond said.
    "If I was there on the platform I don't know that I would have stood there," he said. "It's their job to be down there. The people at Olympic Security had the same human response: 'Why didn't we step in to protect the girl on the ground?'"
    The girl charged with being the primary attacker faces up to 2½ years in juvenile detention if convicted. Whitaker, 18, and Latroy D. Hayman, 20, each face a sentence of 31 to 41 months in prison if convicted, and the third adult defendant, Tyrone J. Watson, 18, faces a sentence of 36 to 48 months in prison.
    It was not immediately clear if any had obtained lawyers.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  2. #2
    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    nuc65 wrote:
    I wonder if the company that governs the security guards and the guards themselves should be accessories to assault.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35340001...me_and_courts/

    3 Seattle bus tunnel guards watch brutal beatingThey follow their company's rules, call police, don't get involved
    SEATTLE - A 15-year-old girl who was badly beaten and robbed in a Seattle bus tunnel as three unarmed security guards looked on told investigators that she thought the men would protect her.The statements were revealed in court papers filed Wednesday against the teen girl accused of attacking her and the three young men accused of stealing her purse, phone and iPod. The four were all charged with first-degree robbery.
    The victim told a King County sheriff's detective that the group followed her from a nearby department store into the bus tunnel at Westlake Station on Jan. 28, and she deliberately stood next to the three guards.
    The guards didn't intervene, though. They have standing orders to "observe and report," so they called police but did nothing else as another 15-year-old girl punched and repeatedly kicked the victim in the head.Government officials as well as executives at Olympic Security Services Inc., which employs the guards, are reviewing that protocol after the guards' response was caught on surveillance video.
    Thought they ‘would defend me’
    "I went to the security and told them that these kids were trying to jump me," the girl said. "I know that I am about to get jumped and I am hanging around the guards to try and get protection. ... I thought the security guards would defend me."
    The girl, who is black, also told the detective that the altercation began at a nearby department store, where some in the group made threatening comments that she had "nice things" and that she acts "white."
    Two Seattle police officers noticed the escalating situation and kicked the group out of the Macy's, then brought the girl and her friend to another exit, the victim said. She reported that she asked the officers for an escort to the bus tunnel, just below the department store, but the officers refused.
    The Seattle Police Department did not immediately return a call seeking comment.
    One of the defendants, Dominique Whitaker, told detectives that earlier in the evening the victim had pepper-sprayed another person in the group.
    The victim, who reported that she lost consciousness during the attack, was not hospitalized. She said she has a potentially fatal heart condition, and tried to protect her chest as she was being kicked.
    King County Sheriff's Sgt. John Urquhart said the guards were right to follow their training.
    "If you're a bank teller and you do something other than give them the money, you're going to get fired," Urquhart said. "We don't expect civilians to take police action. In this case, it was a violent fight, and they were outnumbered by this pack of people 3-to-1."
    Others are ‘very disappointed’
    Metro Transit General Manager Kevin Desmond and other King County officials were less forgiving.
    "We are very disappointed in what people see in that video," Desmond said. "It was absolutely unacceptable. I know the Olympic Security folks were also disappointed in the response, but again, the employees were following the letter of the agreement."
    Metro Transit contracts with the King County Sheriff's Office for 68 police officers, and supplements that force with civilian guards provided by Olympic Security Services Inc. of Tukwila, Wash. All three of the guards involved are Olympic employees.
    The guards' duties include helping customers and reporting suspicious objects, disruptive behavior and equipment problems.
    Olympic Security President Mark Vinson did not immediately return calls seeking comment, but Desmond said the company is quickly working up a proposed contract revision, which could include additional training and new guidelines on how and when guards should intervene.
    Other options include hiring armed guards.
    Unarmed guards could put themselves and others at risk if they intervene in certain situations. But this incident was largely a fight between two teenage girls, and there does not appear to be any indication that the larger group would have become involved if the guards broke it up, Desmond said.
    "If I was there on the platform I don't know that I would have stood there," he said. "It's their job to be down there. The people at Olympic Security had the same human response: 'Why didn't we step in to protect the girl on the ground?'"
    The girl charged with being the primary attacker faces up to 2½ years in juvenile detention if convicted. Whitaker, 18, and Latroy D. Hayman, 20, each face a sentence of 31 to 41 months in prison if convicted, and the third adult defendant, Tyrone J. Watson, 18, faces a sentence of 36 to 48 months in prison.
    It was not immediately clear if any had obtained lawyers.
    That's the question many armed citizens face. You have no legal responsability to intervein when you see a crime being comitted. Moral responsability would be dictated by whatever set of values you opt to observe. By interveining you are subjecting yourself to potential criminal and civil action; or at minimum being part of a criminal investigation where your firearm (property) will be siezed as evidence.

    The young lady attacked was a child so that may sway the decision of interjecting yourselves, but Perhapse an equaly valid question (when the person being attacked is an adult) would be if the person being attacked did not opt to arm themselves and take their own safety into their hands, do you want to take that responsability on their behalf in your hands. It's an interesting question to field.

    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when youre serious and when youre being sarcastic. Abraham Lincoln

  3. #3
    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    I see some money to be saved.If all these "security guards"are there to do is observe, the cameras allready installed couldreplace them saving the salary of three people.

    Olympic Security needs a new policy.

  4. #4
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    I noticed that the perp had no issue beating the girl right in front of the guards.

    She obviously knew that nothing would happen.

    Parts of this country are nothing but paved jungles.

  5. #5
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    This is s a situation that can be looked at all sorts of ways. We have one 15 year old girl beacing another 15 year old. You are standing there with your 1911 on your side so what do you do. As I read the article the three men with the girl didn't do anything other than rob her after she was beaten. It would be noce to play hero in this but if your pull your gun you might want to remeber HankT postulate in this case. You have to take notice that even though they were fighting and one was getting beaten up and robbed she wasn't killed and probably not great bodily harm as far as the law and technicalities go.

    Suppose the girl had been armed and the other one went right on with the attack. Then we get into a legal battle here of she siad-she said. After all this we turn to the guards actions. They went by the book so why are they called guards, should be called observers or as someone pointed out a camera could do the same.

    In any case this one makes for some good discussion on how many things could have been done differently. One thing to remember is that you never get in the middle of two girls fighting, you will be the loser. You can break up a fight between two boys but jumping in the middle of a cat fight is going to hurt.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    This is SEATTLE, right. The land where pre-emption doesn't applyto public propertybecause Mayor McCheese wanted to exercize private property rights on public property.

    //sarcasm on//There is no need for people to have the means of self defense, because the City of Seattle, or her security contractors, will protect you.//sarcasm off//

    This is sick.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    What is the point of an unarmed guard?

  8. #8
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    PT111 wrote:
    This is s a situation that can be looked at all sorts of ways. We have one 15 year old girl beacing another 15 year old. You are standing there with your 1911 on your side so what do you do. As I read the article the three men with the girl didn't do anything other than rob her after she was beaten. It would be noce to play hero in this but if your pull your gun you might want to remeber HankT postulate in this case. You have to take notice that even though they were fighting and one was getting beaten up and robbed she wasn't killed and probably not great bodily harm as far as the law and technicalities go.

    Suppose the girl had been armed and the other one went right on with the attack. Then we get into a legal battle here of she siad-she said. After all this we turn to the guards actions. They went by the book so why are they called guards, should be called observers or as someone pointed out a camera could do the same.

    In any case this one makes for some good discussion on how many things could have been done differently. One thing to remember is that you never get in the middle of two girls fighting, you will be the loser. You can break up a fight between two boys but jumping in the middle of a cat fight is going to hurt.
    PT, I gotta disagree with you.

    I don't think one would have to use a gun to pull the one girl off of the other, nor would any of us suggest it (I hope).

    Regarding bodily harm, the attacker was kicking the other girl in the head!!!!! I disagree that the law would not call it so, even if she happened to escape unscathed.

    I don't see this as a cat fight, it's a one-sided attack.

    Sorry, but I would have pulled the attacker off...depending upon the actions/participation of the crowd. I'm chivalrous, but not stupid.

    Regarding calling them "guards," you're spot on. They ain't guarding nothin', except for their own butts.

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