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Thread: Gun rules in national parks kick in Feb. 20

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    Gun rules in national parks kick in Feb. 20

    A year of controversy over guns in national parks and refuges ends on Feb. 20, when visitors will be allowed to pack guns in all national parks and refuges in accordance with the laws of the state or states where they are located.

    The rule change—loaded guns have not been allowed in parks for decades—first was floated as an administrative rule change in the last days of the George W. Bush presidency, but later was challenged in court which reversed the Interior Department regulation, The Missoulian newspaper noted. Congress then attached the authorizing gun language as an amendment to credit card legislation, which was signed by President Barack Obama on May 22.

    Under the new rules, "all firearms—loaded, legally concealed and otherwise—can be carried, by anyone," according to Glacier Park spokeswoman Amy Vanderbilt, quoted by the newspaper. National parks and wildlife refuges now will have the same gun rules as the states in which they are located.

    The guns will not, however, be allowed in federal facilities—such as park headquarters, visitor centers and ranger stations—or in places where federal employees regularly work, such as the auditorium at Glacier’s Lake McDonald Lodge.

    The move to allow guns in parks and refuges—crafted by the National Rifle Association and supported by many national and local pro-gun organizations, such as the Virginia Civil Defense League, was strongly opposed by coalitions of Park Service retirees, as well as by park ranger organizations. Officials said rangers in parks and refuges will "investigate to the fullest any reports of firearm discharge in a park."

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    No

    the date is Feb 22, 2010 not the 20th, see the NPS link



    http://www.nps.gov/nero/firearms/



    sprat

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    Thanks for the clarification. I guess the article was wrong! Imagine that...the media portraying things incorrectly!

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    I think they got the order wrong in who did the work and who supported it too.... If I recall correctly.

    http://bighammer.net/timeline.html

    TFred


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    Dear NPS: Please cite the specific federal code that would prohibit lawfully carried firearms into Park Buildings. Thank you.

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    lockman wrote:
    Dear NPS: Please cite the specific federal code that would prohibit lawfully carried firearms into Park Buildings.* Thank you.
    http://law.justia.com/us/codes/title18/18usc930.html
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Yooper wrote:
    lockman wrote:
    Dear NPS: Please cite the specific federal code that would prohibit lawfully carried firearms into Park Buildings. Thank you.
    http://law.justia.com/us/codes/title18/18usc930.html
    18 USC 930 (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to--
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal Facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

    seems to say that as long as you are not carrying for an illegal purpose, it is perfectly alright to carry into a Federal Facility.

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    That is what I'm reading also! So it does not apply to OC or CC? Whao!

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I'm sure others will pipe in, but I don't believe that self defense has ever been included in that "other lawful purposes" blanket.

    I do seem to remember reading that the buildings will have to post. I'm sure that most of them will.

    TFred


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    I believe, in NC, for it to be legal, they'll need to post in conspicuous places to prevent someone from carrying weapons into the facilities in any mode.

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    TFred wrote:
    I'm sure others will pipe in, but I don't believe that self defense has ever been included in that "other lawful purposes" blanket.

    I do seem to remember reading that the buildings will have to post. I'm sure that most of them will.

    TFred
    18 USC 930 (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

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    tekshogun wrote:
    I believe, in NC, for it to be legal, they'll need to post in conspicuous places to prevent someone from carrying weapons into the facilities in any mode.
    GSMNP is posting signs on all buildings that you cannot carry into. But they do not mention OC at all on their page.

    http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm

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    chiefjason wrote:
    tekshogun wrote:
    I believe, in NC, for it to be legal, they'll need to post in conspicuous places to prevent someone from carrying weapons into the facilities in any mode.
    GSMNP is posting signs on all buildings that you cannot carry into. But they do not mention OC at all on their page.

    http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm
    Which means they defer to the state, which is part of why they're posting signs on facilities. As far as open carry, you can carry around whatever you want in NC from what I just read. Thanks for the link, I've been looking for that page.

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    I followed the link for the NPS Rules and it does not comply withSection 512 of the Credit Card Accountability Act of 2009. Look at paragraph (h) (highlighted in red, last paragraph of first quote)of Title 36 and compare that to paragragh (b) of Section 512. The NPS rules are not in compliance with the Act.

    http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....4&idno=36
    e-CFR Data is current as of February 15, 2010





    Title 36: Parks, Forests, and Public Property
    PART 2—RESOURCE PROTECTION, PUBLIC USE AND RECREATION

    Browse Previous|Browse Next

    §2.4Weapons, traps and nets.
    (a)(1) Except as otherwise provided in this section and parts 7 (special regulations) and 13 (Alaska regulations), the following are prohibited:

    (i) Possessing a weapon, trap or net

    (ii) Carrying a weapon, trap or net

    (iii) Using a weapon, trap or net

    (2) Weapons, traps or nets may be carried, possessed or used:

    (i) At designated times and locations in park areas where:

    (A) The taking of wildlife is authorized by law in accordance with §2.2 of this chapter;

    (B) The taking of fish is authorized by law in accordance with §2.3 of this part.

    (ii) When used for target practice at designated times and at facilities or locations designed and constructed specifically for this purpose and designated pursuant to special regulations.

    (iii) Within a residential dwelling. For purposes of this subparagraph only, the term “residential dwelling” means a fixed housing structure which is either the principal residence of its occupants, or is occupied on a regular and recurring basis by its occupants as an alternate residence or vacation home.

    (3) Traps, nets and unloaded weapons may be possessed within a temporary lodging or mechanical mode of conveyance when such implements are rendered temporarily inoperable or are packed, cased or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use.

    (b) Carrying or possessing a loaded weapon in a motor vehicle, vessel or other mode of transportation is prohibited, except that carrying or possessing a loaded weapon in a vessel is allowed when such vessel is not being propelled by machinery and is used as a shooting platform in accordance with Federal and State law.

    (c) The use of a weapon, trap or net in a manner that endangers persons or property is prohibited.

    (d) The superintendent may issue a permit to carry or possess a weapon, trap or net under the following circumstances:

    (1) When necessary to support research activities conducted in accordance with §2.5.

    (2) To carry firearms for persons in charge of pack trains or saddle horses for emergency use.

    (3) For employees, agents or cooperating officials in the performance of their official duties.

    (4) To provide access to otherwise inaccessible lands or waters contiguous to a park area when other means of access are otherwise impracticable or impossible.

    Violation of the terms and conditions of a permit issued pursuant to this paragraph is prohibited and may result in the suspension or revocation of the permit.

    (e) Authorized Federal, State and local law enforcement officers may carry firearms in the performance of their official duties.

    (f) The carrying or possessing of a weapon, trap or net in violation of applicable Federal and State laws is prohibited.

    (g) The regulations contained in this section apply, regardless of land ownership, on all lands and waters within a park area that are under the legislative jurisdiction of the United States.

    (h) Notwithstanding any other provision in this Chapter, a person may possess, carry, and transport concealed, loaded, and operable firearms within a national park area in accordance with the laws of the state in which the national park area, or that portion thereof, is located, except as otherwise prohibited by applicable Federal law.

    [48 FR 30282, June 30, 1983, as amended at 49 FR 18450, Apr. 30, 1984; 52 FR 35240, Sept. 18, 1987; 73 FR 74971, Dec. 10, 2008]


    Section 512of H.R. 627: Credit Card Accountability Responsibility and Disclosure Act of 2009.

    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill...?bill=h111-627
    SEC. 512. PROTECTING AMERICANS FROM VIOLENT CRIME.



    (a) Congressional Findings- Congress finds the following:



    (1) The Second Amendment to the Constitution provides that ‘the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed’.



    (2) Section 2.4(a)(1) of title 36, Code of Federal Regulations, provides that ‘except as otherwise provided in this section and parts 7 (special regulations) and 13 (Alaska regulations), the following are prohibited: (i) Possessing a weapon, trap or net (ii) Carrying a weapon, trap or net (iii) Using a weapon, trap or net’.



    (3) Section 27.42 of title 50, Code of Federal Regulations, provides that, except in special circumstances, citizens of the United States may not ‘possess, use, or transport firearms on national wildlife refuges’ of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service.



    (4) The regulations described in paragraphs (2) and (3) prevent individuals complying with Federal and State laws from exercising the second amendment rights of the individuals while at units of--



    (A) the National Park System; and



    (B) the National Wildlife Refuge System.



    (5) The existence of different laws relating to the transportation and possession of firearms at different units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System entrapped law-abiding gun owners while at units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System.



    (6) Although the Bush administration issued new regulations relating to the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens in units of the National Park System and National Wildlife Refuge System that went into effect on January 9, 2009--



    (A) on March 19, 2009, the United States District Court for the District of Columbia granted a preliminary injunction with respect to the implementation and enforcement of the new regulations; and



    (B) the new regulations--



    (i) are under review by the administration; and



    (ii) may be altered.



    (7) Congress needs to weigh in on the new regulations to ensure that unelected bureaucrats and judges cannot again override the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens on 83,600,000 acres of National Park System land and 90,790,000 acres of land under the jurisdiction of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service.



    (b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System- The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if--



    (1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and



    (2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.
    'Till the last landings made, and we stand unafraid, on a shore not mortal has seen,
    'Till the last bugle call, sounds taps for us all,
    It's Semper Fidelis, MARINE!

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    Regular Member streetdoc's Avatar
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    A little further looking around the NPS Web Sites and I found that some of the Parks are doing a better job at publishing the new laws than some of the others. If you look at thisNortheast Region NPS Site: http://www.nps.gov/nero/firearms/they do a much better job for the gun laws for each states laws as that related to carrying firearms and list if it is an open carry or conceal carry and if a permit is needed. Most of the sites that I looked at are quoting old regulation and siting that there is a change but they are on the individual park web sites. This does not make for an easy transition. The Northeast Region's site was the best that I saw, it would be great if the NPS Home Site would do this for the home site and have the individual parks like to the National Site.
    'Till the last landings made, and we stand unafraid, on a shore not mortal has seen,
    'Till the last bugle call, sounds taps for us all,
    It's Semper Fidelis, MARINE!

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    streetdoc, I am not sure what you're getting at with the non-compliance, can you elaborate?

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    They are saying in Title 36, that to carry a firearm in the National Park System it must be concealed, which is not correct,you need to comply with the laws in the state where the parkis located. I many states you will be able to openly carry not just concealed carry. The restriction for concealed carrywas in the original rule change that got thrown out and we ended up with a better law rather than just a rule change.

    Title 36: Parks, Forests, and Public Property
    PART 2—RESOURCE PROTECTION, PUBLIC USE AND RECREATION
    §2.4Weapons, traps and nets.
    (h) Notwithstanding any other provision in this Chapter, a person may possess, carry, and transport concealed, loaded, and operable firearms within a national park area in accordance with the laws of the state in which the national park area, or that portion thereof, is located, except as otherwise prohibited by applicable Federal law.



    Section 512of H.R. 627: Credit Card Accountability Responsibility and Disclosure Act of 2009.
    (b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System- The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if--

    (1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and

    (2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.


    edited for spelling and format
    'Till the last landings made, and we stand unafraid, on a shore not mortal has seen,
    'Till the last bugle call, sounds taps for us all,
    It's Semper Fidelis, MARINE!

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    I understand what you're getting at now, however, the way I read it is the original rule was stating that there is not a prohibition or regulation on concealed carry in National Parks unless the state in which the park resides has any kind of prohibition or regulation. For example, New Hampshire allows people to carry openly or concealed without permit or registration, so that would apply to a National Park if there is one in NH (I don't know but lets say for example one does exist). In NC, a person must acquire a permit to carry concealed, that would go for the National Parks as well in NC.

    The rule does not explicitly state, one MUST, carry concealed, but CAN carry or transport in any manner, a concealed weapon. This does not state you can not carry openly, so therefor it is in compliance to me. But I am not sure where the exact intent of the new law came from and if it was developed to negate the rule you are quoting.

    In short, it reads as though it is in compliance, I could be wrong.

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    Texas Big Bend NP, What is the rule on open Carry of a rifle within the park, and what is the rule of open carry within the state park and in Public. I have a GA CCW which is reciprocal with TX if that has any additional issues. Will be there for several weeks and am not comfortable in the border areas without a firearm with some distance capability.
    Thanks for a great forum!
    Sean
    Atlanta,GA

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    tekshogun wrote:
    I understand what you're getting at now, however, the way I read it is the original rule was stating that there is not a prohibition or regulation on concealed carry in National Parks unless the state in which the park resides has any kind of prohibition or regulation. For example, New Hampshire allows people to carry openly or concealed without permit or registration, so that would apply to a National Park if there is one in NH (I don't know but lets say for example one does exist). In NC, a person must acquire a permit to carry concealed, that would go for the National Parks as well in NC.

    The rule does not explicitly state, one MUST, carry concealed, but CAN carry or transport in any manner, a concealed weapon. This does not state you can not carry openly, so therefor it is in compliance to me. But I am not sure where the exact intent of the new law came from and if it was developed to negate the rule you are quoting.

    In short, it reads as though it is in compliance, I could be wrong.
    VERMONT!!

    New Hampshire does require a permit to carry! (although it is fairly easy to get.)

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newhampshire.pdf

    Please be careful and check the laws before you make these statements, we don't want to get anyone arrested!

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