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Thread: Seattle bus tunnel beat-down: What could private citizen have done?

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    Charges, backlash in wake of bus tunnel beat-down in Seattle



    What could a private citizen have done to intervene? Use-of-force statute is clear, but does not eliminate consequences

    http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seattle-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m2d11-Charges-backlash-follow-bus-tunnel-beating-what-can-citizens-actually-do

    Or try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/yct7hz5




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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    Well written and a good read.

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    And people wonder why I carry.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    From what I understood, if someone is committing a felony assault against another person, you don't have to know the person to use force to defend them.

    I seen the video footage, you would swear they were trying to kill that girl, kicking her in the head as much, and as long as they were. I might have been putting my freedom and butt on the line but I would have defended the woman...but that's just me. Iwould feel morally obligated.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Depending on the day I might of been CC or OC in downtown Seattle.

    I would of stepped in and tried to stop the altercation. 15yo girls (I have a 15 and 17 yo) weigh about 100lbs or less. I would of yanked them apart and yelled at them to stop. I would of demanded a bystander dial 911! I would of demanded help from the Observors (Security).

    If and only if the group of troublemakers came at me would I have pulled my weapon to defend myself and the girl on the ground.

    There are many many ways things could go, but I would have stepped in as it is in my nature. And I have been in this situation years ago (CC) and never had to reveal I had a weapon. Even to the officer's that came to the scene after the fact.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    ***"15-year-old Seattle girl, and three male friends, ages 18 to 20, with first-degree robbery" So there were three adult men there also, helping the 15 year old girl.



    [/b]Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    You and me both, Sylvia. Right is right, and wrong is wrong.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I am with the above two posts.
    I am not going to idly stand by and let someone die.
    Why is age a relevance when someone is brutalizing someone? A 15 year old can't kill someone there attacks are less lethal because of the age?

    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    The failure of the guards to even place themselves between the victim and the assailants doesn't say much for them.

    How about the slime-ball that went into the traffic lane to steal the girls purse. Probably went back to the "hood" and bragged about his manly accomplishment.

    In some ways it's too bad we are not allowed to regulate "predators" like this like farmers do with wildlife that preys on their stock. Maybe we should start issuing depredation permits.



    Better yet, why don't government officials start doing THEIR job. Real Police would be nice in this environment. Follow the arrests with prosecution for the crime and real punishment. The 15 year old was just as capable of killing her victim as an adult yet she will avoid doing any "Hard Time" because of her age.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member BrenTen's Avatar
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    I am with the above two posts.
    I am not going to idly stand by and let someone die.
    Why is age a relevance when someone is brutalizing someone? A 15 year old can't kill someone there attacks are less lethal because of the age?
    Because you may not get any backup from Police and you may end up in a Jena-6 six situation with Sharpton and Jesse marching outside your door, your job lost and your family broke and you and you family harassed for the rest of your life or even jailed if you end up shooting a 15 year old "youth" over a situation you don't fully understand.

    Officers have allowed others to die right in front of them, having given orders to "Stand Down". I speak of course of the attack on Fat Tuesday in Seattle of a African American gang beating to death a White man who stepped in a situation where a White woman was being assaulted by said gang right in front of the Officers.

    In this case we have a 15 year old girl who was "Acting White" by possessing fine clothes and was hunted down by her peers for violating a cultural code which most Whites don't even realize exists. (See Story @ Washington Post)

    Snip:
    The girl, who is black, also told the detective that the altercation began at a nearby department store, where some in the group made threatening comments that she had “nice things” and that she acts “white.”
    Two Seattle police officers noticed the escalating situation and kicked the group out of the Macy’s, then brought the girl and her friend to another exit, the victim said. She reported that she asked the officers for an escort to the bus tunnel, just below the department store, but the officers refused.



    SEE:

    [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...21001807.html]


    Let's say that you say that the "cause" is irrelevant, that anyone being beaten is a victim, even if they are the mugger and the victim has turned that tables on the former attacker (How would you know?), are you ready for the aftermath, the lawsuits?

    I agree that some who carry have decided that they will protect ALL who are in their area. However, don't for a moment think that it is a majority, or that the issues are clear cut, or that someone with a 5 shot smith is going to take on a gang, or that even the people on this forum have the tactical or legal knowledge or funds to deal with this type of situation and the aftermath.



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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    You bring up many good points Bren. All I know is that for me the "aftermath" is not the priority when someones life is on the line.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member knight_308's Avatar
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    gogodawgs wrote:
    Depending on the day I might of been CC or OC in downtown Seattle.

    I would of stepped in and tried to stop the altercation. 15yo girls (I have a 15 and 17 yo) weigh about 100lbs or less. I would of yanked them apart and yelled at them to stop. I would of demanded a bystander dial 911! I would of demanded help from the Observors (Security).

    If and only if the group of troublemakers came at me would I have pulled my weapon to defend myself and the girl on the ground.

    There are many many ways things could go, but I would have stepped in as it is in my nature. And I have been in this situation years ago (CC) and never had to reveal I had a weapon. Even to the officer's that came to the scene after the fact.
    I think this is the winner, here. The danger of course is getting overwhelmed by the others if you don't already have your gun out (21-foot rule and all that). I don't see how anyone could just stand aside and let someone get the crap kicked out of their head like that.

    There were three guards. They could have stood back-to-back-to-back with the girl in the middle easily enough and protected her even if they had to take a few blows.

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    gogodawgs wrote:
    Depending on the day I might of been CC or OC in downtown Seattle.

    I would of stepped in and tried to stop the altercation. 15yo girls (I have a 15 and 17 yo) weigh about 100lbs or less. I would of yanked them apart and yelled at them to stop. I would of demanded a bystander dial 911! I would of demanded help from the Observors (Security).

    If and only if the group of troublemakers came at me would I have pulled my weapon to defend myself and the girl on the ground.

    There are many many ways things could go, but I would have stepped in as it is in my nature. And I have been in this situation years ago (CC) and never had to reveal I had a weapon. Even to the officer's that came to the scene after the fact.
    Evidently your tow girls have never been in a cat fight and you have never seen one up close. I can assure you that you will not grab two 15 year old girls going at it like this and yank them apart easily. At the local high school a fight between two 15 year old girls resulted in the resourse officer ( deputy sheriff) and assistant principal both going to the hospital when they tried to break it up. One thing I am surprised at in this attack that there were no weapons such as razors, knives or similar involved. Around here you can look for most of the girls from the "hood" to be carrying at least some kind of razor blade.

    We can post all the alternative and great solutions we want to about this but we weren't there and I would be willing to bet that if a bystander had a gun and got involved there would be lots of lawsuits and criminal charges being brought. Just remember that you can break up two boys fighting without a lot of trouble but getting involved with a cat fight will probably result in you getting hurt. This is from experience.

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    RCW 9.41.270 (3), (c) and (d) clearly state, without the possibility of misinterpretation by an overzealous prosecutor, that a citizen would have been 100 percent within their legal right to draw a firearm to thwart the attack.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.270

    Dave wrote a great article, but his statement...

    "Would it have been legal for an armed citizen to intervene and hold the suspects at gunpoint? Probably not, though it might be argued that intervention with the threat of lethal forcemay have been necessary to stop what could have been a lethal attack, and detain those responsible."

    is just a little off. The attack did not have to have the appearance of being a lethal attack. Any attack on any person legally justifies the drawing of firearm to stop the attack and then detain those individuals until police arrive and take the attackers into custody. Please don't take this correction as bashing the article or Dave's work. I have a lot of respect for what he has done, is doing, and will continue to do.

    Is this how it works in the real world? You bet your ass it does, because I did it, and was told to go on my happy way within 45 minutes of drawing a firearm on an individual to detain them until the cops got there. By the way, when I did it, it was for an arson where nobody's life was visibly in immediate danger. But arson, and the possession of tools to commit arson, are felony crimes, and thereby authorized me to draw my firearm. So if I could do it under the provisions of RCW 9.41.270 (3) (d), why would you NOT be able to do the same under (c)?



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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    PT111 wrote:
    gogodawgs wrote:
    Depending on the day I might of been CC or OC in downtown Seattle.

    I would of stepped in and tried to stop the altercation. 15yo girls (I have a 15 and 17 yo) weigh about 100lbs or less. I would of yanked them apart and yelled at them to stop. I would of demanded a bystander dial 911! I would of demanded help from the Observors (Security).

    If and only if the group of troublemakers came at me would I have pulled my weapon to defend myself and the girl on the ground.

    There are many many ways things could go, but I would have stepped in as it is in my nature. And I have been in this situation years ago (CC) and never had to reveal I had a weapon. Even to the officer's that came to the scene after the fact.
    Evidently your tow girls have never been in a cat fight and you have never seen one up close. I can assure you that you will not grab two 15 year old girls going at it like this and yank them apart easily. At the local high school a fight between two 15 year old girls resulted in the resourse officer ( deputy sheriff) and assistant principal both going to the hospital when they tried to break it up. One thing I am surprised at in this attack that there were no weapons such as razors, knives or similar involved. Around here you can look for most of the girls from the "hood" to be carrying at least some kind of razor blade.

    We can post all the alternative and great solutions we want to about this but we weren't there and I would be willing to bet that if a bystander had a gun and got involved there would be lots of lawsuits and criminal charges being brought. Just remember that you can break up two boys fighting without a lot of trouble but getting involved with a cat fight will probably result in you getting hurt. This is from experience.
    And basically what I had been trying to say for the longest time... Until people started calling me a ***** because of trying to explain why I would not try to get in and help in that girl's situation... I would have been a good witness and been another call to 911.

    The rest of you heroes though can go get yourself injured and into a legal battle.

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    The problem is not whether you can draw your firearm or not but what happend after you draw it. In this case you pull your gun and yell for them to stop fighting. One of the male friends start toward you and then you have to make the decision to shoot. It is unlikely that the two girls fighting would have paid any attention to you pulling the gun out and yelling. Pulling the gun and pulling the triggerare two different things and would probably wind up under two different sets of laws. If you had would up shooting anyone of the five involved I doubt very seriously that you would be able to walk away in 45 minutes and it be over.

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    Terrible......absolutely terrible that anyone posting here would be willing to say "Screw it. I'm not going to get involved!" Mentalities like that are some of the reasons why this country is going to hell. If nobody is held accountable for their actions unless police are around, what kind of country do you think you are going to end up with? If you answered @#$%ty, you would be correct. Some of the posters are right, we weren't there and it is only speculation to say that you would have done x or y, but having been in that exact same situation more times than I care to remember, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt what I would have done.

    To be frank, I am considering leaving this forum for good based on the attitudes of some of the members. I would rather not be associated with sheeple, which is exactly what you are if you are willing to watch members of your flock get devoured by the wolves while you bray on the phone to police that cannot instantaneously effect the situation. I am actually furious at some of your posts. Terrible.

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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    TRAKATAK wrote:
    Terrible......absolutely terrible that anyone posting here would be willing to say "Screw it. I'm not going to get involved!" Mentalities like that are some of the reasons why this country is going to hell. If nobody is held accountable for their actions unless police are around, what kind of country do you think you are going to end up with? If you answered @#$%ty, you would be correct. Some of the posters are right, we weren't there and it is only speculation to say that you would have done x or y, but having been in that exact same situation more times than I care to remember, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt what I would have done.

    To be frank, I am considering leaving this forum for good based on the attitudes of some of the members. I would rather not be associated with sheeple, which is exactly what you are if you are willing to watch members of your flock get devoured by the wolves while you bray on the phone to police that cannot instantaneously effect the situation. I am actually furious at some of your posts. Terrible.
    Other people's problems are not mine. I am not going to get involved and be injured or caught up in a legal battle. It is smart to not get involved. Police are PAID to get involved and are there to help the sheeple. So what it if takes them 15 minutes. Maybe people will eventually realize that others are not required to help and are going to keep themselves safe.

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    Must be nice to never have been need of help and know what that feels like, Swat.

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    swatspyder wrote:
    TRAKATAK wrote:
    Terrible......absolutely terrible that anyone posting here would be willing to say "Screw it. I'm not going to get involved!" Mentalities like that are some of the reasons why this country is going to hell. If nobody is held accountable for their actions unless police are around, what kind of country do you think you are going to end up with? If you answered @#$%ty, you would be correct. Some of the posters are right, we weren't there and it is only speculation to say that you would have done x or y, but having been in that exact same situation more times than I care to remember, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt what I would have done.

    To be frank, I am considering leaving this forum for good based on the attitudes of some of the members. I would rather not be associated with sheeple, which is exactly what you are if you are willing to watch members of your flock get devoured by the wolves while you bray on the phone to police that cannot instantaneously effect the situation. I am actually furious at some of your posts. Terrible.
    Other people's problems are not mine. I am not going to get involved and be injured or caught up in a legal battle. It is smart to not get involved. Police are PAID to get involved and are there to help the sheeple. So what it if takes them 15 minutes. Maybe people will eventually realize that others are not required to help and are going to keep themselves safe.
    I am getting tired of hearing this sheep, sheepdog, wolf shizz. You are a human being, you have emotions, and you can think.

    Now if you were a wild animal, I'd understand your desire to be a smart critter and hide from the predators so you can survive and reproduce. (Please don't)

    But that isn't the case. We are humans and we co-exist. Whether you like it or not. You never know when you might need help.

    But yeah, who cares about others? I mean, I am sure you have family under 20, that cannot carry, and I am so sure they are ALWAYS with someone who WILL protect them right? Like at SCHOOL right? So many pussies like you stand by and watch other kids in school get punked on, threatened, and then beat up. Keep letting this happen, the punks get cocky and start doing more dangerous shizz.

    Selfish, *****.


    Been harassed by the police? Yelled at by the anti-gun neighbors? Mother doesn't approve?

    Then this is the place for you! Click here to get back at them!

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    I would like to quote from Swatspider's homepage. Here is an excerpt from a letter his father wrote to the editor of a newspaper about the actions of his son. Andrew is Swatspider here.

    "Without regard for their own safety, all three good Samaritans swam out to the two men. The water was crashing on them and they knew they had to act quickly. Andrew and Mark immediately grabbed the friend and began toward shore. Brett continued toward Scarcelli as he was farther out and began assisting him.
    The water began taking its toll on Brett as he attempted to get Scarcelli to the beach and he had to abandon his effort. He then instructed Scarcelli on how to float on his back until professional help arrived.
    Meanwhile, Andrew and Mark, at approximately 50 feet from shore with the friend, began yelling for others on the beach to call for assistance. After pulling Scarcelli’s friend from the water and ensuring his safety, my son turned back to the water to see if his friend Brett was able to bring Mr. Scarcelli to shore.
    To his shock, he saw Brett make it to within 30 feet of the shore and stop swimming. He immediately re-entered the water to assist his friend, pulling him to shore where Brett collapsed on the beach."


    So amazingly, even though Swat is NOT a lifeguard, he put his life in danger to save someone else. Remember he stated "Other people's problems are not mine. I am not going to get involved and be injured...". Does anyone else see the irregularities in his beliefs and morals? Interesting.



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    Poosharker,

    "But yeah, who cares about others? I mean, I am sure you have family under 20, that cannot carry, and I am so sure they are ALWAYS with someone who WILL protect them right? Like at SCHOOL right? So many pussies like you stand by and watch other kids in school get punked on, threatened, and then beat up. Keep letting this happen, the punks get cocky and start doing more dangerous shizz."

    Took the words right out of my mouth....mostly.


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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    TRAKATAK wrote:
    I would like to quote from Swatspider's homepage. Here is an excerpt from a letter his father wrote to the editor of a newspaper about the actions of his son. Andrew is Swatspider here.

    "Without regard for their own safety, all three good Samaritans swam out to the two men. The water was crashing on them and they knew they had to act quickly. Andrew and Mark immediately grabbed the friend and began toward shore. Brett continued toward Scarcelli as he was farther out and began assisting him.
    The water began taking its toll on Brett as he attempted to get Scarcelli to the beach and he had to abandon his effort. He then instructed Scarcelli on how to float on his back until professional help arrived.
    Meanwhile, Andrew and Mark, at approximately 50 feet from shore with the friend, began yelling for others on the beach to call for assistance. After pulling Scarcelli’s friend from the water and ensuring his safety, my son turned back to the water to see if his friend Brett was able to bring Mr. Scarcelli to shore.
    To his shock, he saw Brett make it to within 30 feet of the shore and stop swimming. He immediately re-entered the water to assist his friend, pulling him to shore where Brett collapsed on the beach."


    So amazingly, even though Swat is NOT a lifeguard, he put his life in danger to save someone else. Remember he stated "Other people's problems are not mine. I am not going to get involved and be injured...". Does anyone else see the irregularities in his beliefs and morals? Interesting.

    Which included 3 total people HELPING, not defending 2 strangers stuck in the water. Like I said, in the other posts, there are times I will defend someone, but I am not going to go in outnumbered to break up a fight or stop a fight, especially for two random people, when I am extremely outnumbered. I am 5'9 175. I am fairly small and not built. I do not have training on taking people down or defending myself in hand to hand combat. I am not going to remove my firearm from its holster and point it at a group of people, unless someone removes a firearm or knife, then it would be confirmed that they are trying to kill that other person and it would be a 100% win in court if it even made it that far.

    And like I said before, it is risk vs. reward. The reward outweighed the risk when I was in the water with my 2 friends. We were not tired, knew how to swim out from rip currents, and had knowledge of how to stay above water and float. The two strangers were calling out for help and were tired from being stuck out in the water and trying to swim directly to shore.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    swatspyder wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    gogodawgs wrote:
    Depending on the day I might of been CC or OC in downtown Seattle.

    I would of stepped in and tried to stop the altercation. 15yo girls (I have a 15 and 17 yo) weigh about 100lbs or less. I would of yanked them apart and yelled at them to stop. I would of demanded a bystander dial 911! I would of demanded help from the Observors (Security).

    If and only if the group of troublemakers came at me would I have pulled my weapon to defend myself and the girl on the ground.

    There are many many ways things could go, but I would have stepped in as it is in my nature. And I have been in this situation years ago (CC) and never had to reveal I had a weapon. Even to the officer's that came to the scene after the fact.
    Evidently your tow girls have never been in a cat fight and you have never seen one up close. I can assure you that you will not grab two 15 year old girls going at it like this and yank them apart easily. At the local high school a fight between two 15 year old girls resulted in the resourse officer ( deputy sheriff) and assistant principal both going to the hospital when they tried to break it up. One thing I am surprised at in this attack that there were no weapons such as razors, knives or similar involved. Around here you can look for most of the girls from the "hood" to be carrying at least some kind of razor blade.

    We can post all the alternative and great solutions we want to about this but we weren't there and I would be willing to bet that if a bystander had a gun and got involved there would be lots of lawsuits and criminal charges being brought. Just remember that you can break up two boys fighting without a lot of trouble but getting involved with a cat fight will probably result in you getting hurt. This is from experience.
    And basically what I had been trying to say for the longest time... Until people started calling me a ***** because of trying to explain why I would not try to get in and help in that girl's situation... I would have been a good witness and been another call to 911.

    The rest of you heroes though can go get yourself injured and into a legal battle.
    This is the attitude of sheep.
    Live Free or Die!

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    swatspyder wrote:
    TRAKATAK wrote:
    I would like to quote from Swatspider's homepage. Here is an excerpt from a letter his father wrote to the editor of a newspaper about the actions of his son. Andrew is Swatspider here.

    "Without regard for their own safety, all three good Samaritans swam out to the two men. The water was crashing on them and they knew they had to act quickly. Andrew and Mark immediately grabbed the friend and began toward shore. Brett continued toward Scarcelli as he was farther out and began assisting him.
    The water began taking its toll on Brett as he attempted to get Scarcelli to the beach and he had to abandon his effort. He then instructed Scarcelli on how to float on his back until professional help arrived.
    Meanwhile, Andrew and Mark, at approximately 50 feet from shore with the friend, began yelling for others on the beach to call for assistance. After pulling Scarcelli’s friend from the water and ensuring his safety, my son turned back to the water to see if his friend Brett was able to bring Mr. Scarcelli to shore.
    To his shock, he saw Brett make it to within 30 feet of the shore and stop swimming. He immediately re-entered the water to assist his friend, pulling him to shore where Brett collapsed on the beach."


    So amazingly, even though Swat is NOT a lifeguard, he put his life in danger to save someone else. Remember he stated "Other people's problems are not mine. I am not going to get involved and be injured...". Does anyone else see the irregularities in his beliefs and morals? Interesting.

    Which included 3 total people HELPING, not defending 2 strangers stuck in the water. Like I said, in the other posts, there are times I will defend someone, but I am not going to go in outnumbered to break up a fight or stop a fight, especially for two random people, when I am extremely outnumbered. I am 5'9 175. I am fairly small and not built. I do not have training on taking people down or defending myself in hand to hand combat. I am not going to remove my firearm from its holster and point it at a group of people, unless someone removes a firearm or knife, then it would be confirmed that they are trying to kill that other person and it would be a 100% win in court if it even made it that far.

    And like I said before, it is risk vs. reward. The reward outweighed the risk when I was in the water with my 2 friends. We were not tired, knew how to swim out from rip currents, and had knowledge of how to stay above water and float. The two strangers were calling out for help and were tired from being stuck out in the water and trying to swim directly to shore.
    It is not risk vs. reward. It is a human being in need.
    Live Free or Die!

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