Seattle bus tunnel beat-down: What could private citizen have done?

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I would like to quote from Swatspider's homepage. Here is an excerpt from a letter his father wrote to the editor of a newspaper about the actions of his son. Andrew is Swatspider here.

"Without regard for their own safety, all three good Samaritans swam out to the two men. The water was crashing on them and they knew they had to act quickly. Andrew and Mark immediately grabbed the friend and began toward shore. Brett continued toward Scarcelli as he was farther out and began assisting him.
The water began taking its toll on Brett as he attempted to get Scarcelli to the beach and he had to abandon his effort. He then instructed Scarcelli on how to float on his back until professional help arrived.
Meanwhile, Andrew and Mark, at approximately 50 feet from shore with the friend, began yelling for others on the beach to call for assistance. After pulling Scarcelli’s friend from the water and ensuring his safety, my son turned back to the water to see if his friend Brett was able to bring Mr. Scarcelli to shore.
To his shock, he saw Brett make it to within 30 feet of the shore and stop swimming. He immediately re-entered the water to assist his friend, pulling him to shore where Brett collapsed on the beach."


So amazingly, even though Swat is NOT a lifeguard, he put his life in danger to save someone else. Remember he stated "Other people's problems are not mine. I am not going to get involved and be injured...". Does anyone else see the irregularities in his beliefs and morals? Interesting.

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Poosharker,

"But yeah, who cares about others? I mean, I am sure you have family under 20, that cannot carry, and I am so sure they are ALWAYS with someone who WILL protect them right? Like at SCHOOL right? So many pussies like you stand by and watch other kids in school get punked on, threatened, and then beat up. Keep letting this happen, the punks get cocky and start doing more dangerous shizz."

Took the words right out of my mouth....mostly.

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TRAKATAK wrote:

I would like to quote from Swatspider's homepage. Here is an excerpt from a letter his father wrote to the editor of a newspaper about the actions of his son. Andrew is Swatspider here.

"Without regard for their own safety, all three good Samaritans swam out to the two men. The water was crashing on them and they knew they had to act quickly. Andrew and Mark immediately grabbed the friend and began toward shore. Brett continued toward Scarcelli as he was farther out and began assisting him.
The water began taking its toll on Brett as he attempted to get Scarcelli to the beach and he had to abandon his effort. He then instructed Scarcelli on how to float on his back until professional help arrived.
Meanwhile, Andrew and Mark, at approximately 50 feet from shore with the friend, began yelling for others on the beach to call for assistance. After pulling Scarcelli’s friend from the water and ensuring his safety, my son turned back to the water to see if his friend Brett was able to bring Mr. Scarcelli to shore.
To his shock, he saw Brett make it to within 30 feet of the shore and stop swimming. He immediately re-entered the water to assist his friend, pulling him to shore where Brett collapsed on the beach."


So amazingly, even though Swat is NOT a lifeguard, he put his life in danger to save someone else. Remember he stated "Other people's problems are not mine. I am not going to get involved and be injured...". Does anyone else see the irregularities in his beliefs and morals? Interesting.

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Which included 3 total people HELPING, not defending 2 strangers stuck in the water. Like I said, in the other posts, there are times I will defend someone, but I am not going to go in outnumbered to break up a fight or stop a fight, especially for two random people, when I am extremely outnumbered. I am 5'9 175. I am fairly small and not built. I do not have training on taking people down or defending myself in hand to hand combat. I am not going to remove my firearm from its holster and point it at a group of people, unless someone removes a firearm or knife, then it would be confirmed that they are trying to kill that other person and it would be a 100% win in court if it even made it that far.

And like I said before, it is risk vs. reward. The reward outweighed the risk when I was in the water with my 2 friends. We were not tired, knew how to swim out from rip currents, and had knowledge of how to stay above water and float. The two strangers were calling out for help and were tired from being stuck out in the water and trying to swim directly to shore.

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swatspyder wrote:

PT111 wrote:

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gogodawgs wrote:

Depending on the day I might of been CC or OC in downtown Seattle.

I would of stepped in and tried to stop the altercation. 15yo girls (I have a 15 and 17 yo) weigh about 100lbs or less. I would of yanked them apart and yelled at them to stop. I would of demanded a bystander dial 911! I would of demanded help from the Observors (Security).

If and only if the group of troublemakers came at me would I have pulled my weapon to defend myself and the girl on the ground.

There are many many ways things could go, but I would have stepped in as it is in my nature. And I have been in this situation years ago (CC) and never had to reveal I had a weapon. Even to the officer's that came to the scene after the fact.

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Evidently your tow girls have never been in a cat fight and you have never seen one up close. I can assure you that you will not grab two 15 year old girls going at it like this and yank them apart easily. At the local high school a fight between two 15 year old girls resulted in the resourse officer ( deputy sheriff) and assistant principal both going to the hospital when they tried to break it up. One thing I am surprised at in this attack that there were no weapons such as razors, knives or similar involved. Around here you can look for most of the girls from the "hood" to be carrying at least some kind of razor blade.

We can post all the alternative and great solutions we want to about this but we weren't there and I would be willing to bet that if a bystander had a gun and got involved there would be lots of lawsuits and criminal charges being brought. Just remember that you can break up two boys fighting without a lot of trouble but getting involved with a cat fight will probably result in you getting hurt. This is from experience.

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And basically what I had been trying to say for the longest time... Until people started calling me a pussy because of trying to explain why I would not try to get in and help in that girl's situation... I would have been a good witness and been another call to 911.

The rest of you heroes though can go get yourself injured and into a legal battle.

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This is the attitude of sheep.

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swatspyder wrote:

TRAKATAK wrote:

I would like to quote from Swatspider's homepage. Here is an excerpt from a letter his father wrote to the editor of a newspaper about the actions of his son. Andrew is Swatspider here.

"Without regard for their own safety, all three good Samaritans swam out to the two men. The water was crashing on them and they knew they had to act quickly. Andrew and Mark immediately grabbed the friend and began toward shore. Brett continued toward Scarcelli as he was farther out and began assisting him.
The water began taking its toll on Brett as he attempted to get Scarcelli to the beach and he had to abandon his effort. He then instructed Scarcelli on how to float on his back until professional help arrived.
Meanwhile, Andrew and Mark, at approximately 50 feet from shore with the friend, began yelling for others on the beach to call for assistance. After pulling Scarcelli’s friend from the water and ensuring his safety, my son turned back to the water to see if his friend Brett was able to bring Mr. Scarcelli to shore.
To his shock, he saw Brett make it to within 30 feet of the shore and stop swimming. He immediately re-entered the water to assist his friend, pulling him to shore where Brett collapsed on the beach."


So amazingly, even though Swat is NOT a lifeguard, he put his life in danger to save someone else. Remember he stated "Other people's problems are not mine. I am not going to get involved and be injured...". Does anyone else see the irregularities in his beliefs and morals? Interesting.

Click to expand...

Which included 3 total people HELPING, not defending 2 strangers stuck in the water. Like I said, in the other posts, there are times I will defend someone, but I am not going to go in outnumbered to break up a fight or stop a fight, especially for two random people, when I am extremely outnumbered. I am 5'9 175. I am fairly small and not built. I do not have training on taking people down or defending myself in hand to hand combat. I am not going to remove my firearm from its holster and point it at a group of people, unless someone removes a firearm or knife, then it would be confirmed that they are trying to kill that other person and it would be a 100% win in court if it even made it that far.

And like I said before, it is risk vs. reward. The reward outweighed the risk when I was in the water with my 2 friends. We were not tired, knew how to swim out from rip currents, and had knowledge of how to stay above water and float. The two strangers were calling out for help and were tired from being stuck out in the water and trying to swim directly to shore.

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It is not risk vs. reward. It is a human being in need.

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swatspyder wrote:

And like I said before, it is risk vs. reward. The reward outweighed the risk when I was in the water with my 2 friends. We were not tired, knew how to swim out from rip currents, and had knowledge of how to stay above water and float. The two strangers were calling out for help and were tired from being stuck out in the water and trying to swim directly to shore.

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So basically, you're like the bullies in school.

Except in their case, they don't pick on people that can fight back.

But in your case, you won't do shizz unless you are absolutely sure you will stay alive to be called a "hero"

All hail the Almighty Swatty Pussy!!!!

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After considering the "why" I would jump into the situation, and take action...I realized it isn't just plain morally right(for my personal self) to help a person that is being beatenand whois obviously in a gravily bodily harm ordeath situation. I think about my children, and if they were the one on the ground being violently beatenand I hope that others like me are out there who are willing to put possibly their life, money, freedom on the line for another human being they don't even know.

Maybe I am being too much of a softy...if I were the one being attacked, and on the ground, unable to defend myself while four people are taking advatage of me, I would be praying that someone help me.

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Sylvia Plath wrote:

Maybe I am being too much of a softy...if I were the one being attacked, and on the ground, unable to defend myself while four people are taking advatage of me, I would be praying that someone help me.

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Except in this case, she actually ASKED and was DE-KLINED (spelt that way on purpose).

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Poosharker wrote:

swatspyder wrote:

And like I said before, it is risk vs. reward. The reward outweighed the risk when I was in the water with my 2 friends. We were not tired, knew how to swim out from rip currents, and had knowledge of how to stay above water and float. The two strangers were calling out for help and were tired from being stuck out in the water and trying to swim directly to shore.

Click to expand...

So basically, you're like the bullies in school.

Except in their case, they don't pick on people that can fight back.

But in your case, you won't do shizz unless you are absolutely sure you will stay alive to be called a "hero"

All hail the Almighty Swatty Pussy!!!!

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Nope. Don't want to be a hero. Don't want to be dead or injured myself.

If I get into that situation and I am unable to defend myself, oh well. My fault for not being prepared. Life's a beach, take a swim.

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swatspyder wrote:

Poosharker wrote:

swatspyder wrote:

And like I said before, it is risk vs. reward. The reward outweighed the risk when I was in the water with my 2 friends. We were not tired, knew how to swim out from rip currents, and had knowledge of how to stay above water and float. The two strangers were calling out for help and were tired from being stuck out in the water and trying to swim directly to shore.

Click to expand...

So basically, you're like the bullies in school.

Except in their case, they don't pick on people that can fight back.

But in your case, you won't do shizz unless you are absolutely sure you will stay alive to be called a "hero"

All hail the Almighty Swatty Pussy!!!!

Click to expand...

Nope. Don't want to be a hero. Don't want to be dead or injured myself.

If I get into that situation and I am unable to defend myself, oh well. My fault for not being prepared. Life's a beach, take a swim.

Click to expand...

You know in a beach, you're at risk for drowning or being eaten by a shark right:lol: (rare chance).

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Poosharker wrote:

swatspyder wrote:

Poosharker wrote:

swatspyder wrote:

And like I said before, it is risk vs. reward. The reward outweighed the risk when I was in the water with my 2 friends. We were not tired, knew how to swim out from rip currents, and had knowledge of how to stay above water and float. The two strangers were calling out for help and were tired from being stuck out in the water and trying to swim directly to shore.

Click to expand...

So basically, you're like the bullies in school.

Except in their case, they don't pick on people that can fight back.

But in your case, you won't do shizz unless you are absolutely sure you will stay alive to be called a "hero"

All hail the Almighty Swatty Pussy!!!!

Click to expand...

Nope. Don't want to be a hero. Don't want to be dead or injured myself.

If I get into that situation and I am unable to defend myself, oh well. My fault for not being prepared. Life's a beach, take a swim.

Click to expand...

You know in a beach, you're at risk for drowning or being eaten by a shark right:lol: (rare chance).

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Maybe I should carry a diving knife every time I go swimming... and a tourniquet... And bring some hemostatic agent like Celox. :lol:

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swatspyder wrote:

Poosharker wrote:

swatspyder wrote:

Poosharker wrote:

swatspyder wrote:

And like I said before, it is risk vs. reward. The reward outweighed the risk when I was in the water with my 2 friends. We were not tired, knew how to swim out from rip currents, and had knowledge of how to stay above water and float. The two strangers were calling out for help and were tired from being stuck out in the water and trying to swim directly to shore.

Click to expand...

So basically, you're like the bullies in school.

Except in their case, they don't pick on people that can fight back.

But in your case, you won't do shizz unless you are absolutely sure you will stay alive to be called a "hero"

All hail the Almighty Swatty Pussy!!!!

Click to expand...

Nope. Don't want to be a hero. Don't want to be dead or injured myself.

If I get into that situation and I am unable to defend myself, oh well. My fault for not being prepared. Life's a beach, take a swim.

Click to expand...

You know in a beach, you're at risk for drowning or being eaten by a shark right:lol: (rare chance).

Click to expand...

Maybe I should carry a diving knife every time I go swimming... and a tourniquet... And bring some hemostatic agent like Celox. :lol:

Click to expand...

But only enough for yourself.

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Poosharker wrote:

swatspyder wrote:

Poosharker wrote:

swatspyder wrote:

Poosharker wrote:

swatspyder wrote:

And like I said before, it is risk vs. reward. The reward outweighed the risk when I was in the water with my 2 friends. We were not tired, knew how to swim out from rip currents, and had knowledge of how to stay above water and float. The two strangers were calling out for help and were tired from being stuck out in the water and trying to swim directly to shore.

Click to expand...

So basically, you're like the bullies in school.

Except in their case, they don't pick on people that can fight back.

But in your case, you won't do shizz unless you are absolutely sure you will stay alive to be called a "hero"

All hail the Almighty Swatty Pussy!!!!

Click to expand...

Nope. Don't want to be a hero. Don't want to be dead or injured myself.

If I get into that situation and I am unable to defend myself, oh well. My fault for not being prepared. Life's a beach, take a swim.

Click to expand...

You know in a beach, you're at risk for drowning or being eaten by a shark right:lol: (rare chance).

Click to expand...

Maybe I should carry a diving knife every time I go swimming... and a tourniquet... And bring some hemostatic agent like Celox. :lol:

Click to expand...

But only enough for yourself.

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What, is this sharks gone wild or something?... :shock:

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Swatspyder is exactly right.

None of us carry the authoritative Weight of a Police Officer. None of us have the police department behind us, the Statutory authority of the State of Washington, the intermediate weapons (Pepper Spray, Tazer, Nightstick or body armor) or the backup to deal with a brawl.

What we have is a gun, so we have limited options in our responses in a steeply escalating scale of force. (Command voice, covering her, drawing, shooting.)

So lets rerun the tape:

1. Girl arrives and goes to the "guards" gets pushed out into bus lane and fight begins

2. Open Carry Forum member suddenly steps into view and draws a weapon, appears to yell.

3. "Gang members" move toward Open Carry member.

4. Open Carry member pulls at shirt of girl on top to pull her away

5. A tussle ensues and 4 shots are fired, two gang members are hit and a passerby is also struck.

Score: One "gang member" is paralyzed for life. One Gang member delimbed of both right arm and right leg, one innocent bystander dead with a bullet in the brain from a miss (or a ricochet, cement tunnels are unforgiving).


In the hospital the first states: "I didn't hear nuthing, I just saw this guy with a gun heading toward Melody and Shana so I was going to tell him to put the gun away and BLAM, I get hit."

The Second says, "I was going to help stop the fight and I saw this guy with a gun and I felt him hit me twice. How am I ever going to play Sports?"

The third doesn't say anything, because she is dead, but the grieving family files a 5 million dollar wrongful death suit against you.

Your defense? "Well, she was getting kicked and then they came at me so I shot."

You are vilified in the press for bringing a gun into a situation which you didn't understand, a "school yard fight", and destroying the lives of three people. The press hates you, the cops hate you, the gun people hate you and the entire black community hates you. You win at trial against the murder charges brought against you but you lose on reckless endangerment and manslaughter charges. You spend 7 years in Walla Walla where the inmates really like you because you are the guy that crippled those black kids.

In 2018 you get out on Probation.

Well, Good Luck with that.

Your sidearm is to protect yourself and yours from grave injury or imminent death, not to jump into every brawl and attempt to "help" or to try to be Superman and "Save the Day" or to hand out "Justice". Misreading that fact will cost you and yours their lives.

If you want to jump into situations with a gun, and more than a few on here seem perfectly willing to do so, please get help. A good book, though dated, is Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme". He devotes several chapters to those who "misread" what a firearm is and what it is not.

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BrenTen wrote:

Swatspyder is exactly right.

None of us carry the authoritative Weight of a Police Officer. None of us have the police department behind us, the Statutory authority of the State of Washington, the intermediate weapons (Pepper Spray, Tazer, Nightstick or body armor) or the backup to deal with this situation.

What we have is a gun, so we have limited options in our responses in a steeply escalating scale of force. (Command voice, covering her, drawing, shooting.)

So lets rerun the tape:

1. Girl arrives and goes to the "guards" gets pushed out into bus lane and fight begins

2. Open Carry Forum member suddenly steps into view and draws a weapon, appears to yell.

3. "Gang members" move toward Open Carry member.

4. Open Carry member pulls at shirt of girl on top to pull her away

5. A tussle ensues and 4 shots are fired, two gang members are hit and a passerby is also struck.

Score: One "gang member" is paralyzed for life. One Gang member delimbed of both right arm and right leg, one innocent bystander dead with a bullet in the brain from a miss (or a ricochet, cement tunnels are unforgiving).


In the hospital the first states: "I ddn't hear nuthing, I just saw this guy with a gun heading toward Melody and Shana so I was going to tell him to put the gun away and BLAM, I get hit."

The Second says, "I was going to help stop the fight and I saw this guy with a gun and I felt him hit me twice. How am I ever going to play Sports?"

The third doesn't say anything, because she is dead, but the grieving family files a 5 million dollar wrongful death suit against you.

Your defense? "Well, she was getting kicked and then they came at me so I shot."

You are vilified in the press for bringing a gun into a situation which you didn't understand, a "school yard fight", and destroying the lives of three people. The press hates you, the cops hate you, the gun people hate you and the entire black community hate you. You win at trial against the murder charges brought against you but you lose on reckless endangerment and manslaughter charges. You spend 7 years in Walla Walla where the inmates really like you because you are the guy that killed those black kids.

In 2018 you get out on Probation.

Well, Good Luck with that.

Your sidearm is to protect yourself and yours from grave injury or imminent death, not to jump into every brawl and attempt to "help" or to try to be Superman and "Save the Day" or to hand out "Justice" and misreading that fact will cost you and yours their lives.

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I've seen necks stepped on and kicked like that. http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1250808699/Mentally_Challenged_Karate_Master_Killed_By_Marine

Before seeing how easily such an attack kills someone (and seeing in Krav Maga how easily even solid parts of the body, such as the legs, can be injured without significant force), I might not have said "step in with all you got." But **** sitting on the sidelines and watching someone get murdered, because I might face legal prosecution. If I lose in the court of public opinion, I would lose knowing that I stepped in to do the right thing. Anything else would be inexcusable to me, I would not forgive myself.

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BrenTen, here we go.

1. You see a girl by guards, trying to get on OTHER SIDE of guard away from mad bitch.

2. Mad bitch keeps going around guard tryna get to girl.
2.a. More of mad bitchs posse is arriving on the scene.

3. Mad bitch now attacks girl, "brawl" starts.

4. Notice "guards" don't go shizz.

5. Notice fellow posse members start looting dropped items by girl.

6. Notice girl fights back, but goes down.

7. Notice mad bitch is madly stomping at girl's head, normally because you and swatty boy are the same, (hard headed) you believe her head is smashproof, therefore you do not intervene.

*This is where hard headed pussies leave the situation, because they are pussies*

This is now where someone (reasonable human being) has to take action, one can YELL (wasn't there something on this forum early, about 4 things you have to do, look, focus, and do or whatever, and if you get interrupted you start all over) and distract mad bitch for a couple seconds, maybe give a few seconds for girl to get up and get away or crawl away.

A. Mad bitch continues to stomp, this is where someone (reasonable human being) can use their body and do pull a linebacker on mad bitch, just enough to give time for girl to get away from posse and nearby pussies who gawk.

B. Mad bitch says oh shizzzz someone is standing up for this girl, oh man I don't fight unless 10v1. Runs away, job done.

C. Mad bitch and posse come after someone (hopefully armed) that distracted them.

C.1 They are beating on your ass/pull a weapon/real danger to you. Defend yourself with your firearm, AFTER checking your backstop, blah blah all that firearm shizz.

C.2 Your turn to run.

C.3 Distract enough until REAL help comes.

And the list goes on.

This person would probably not be charged, camera evidence, witnesses, blahhhhh, I am sure a judge could see all of it on tape, that someone stepped in to save a girl from being stomped to death.

But if they had, they would know they did the damn right thing because you cannot put a price on a human life, and you cannot give life. You can only save lives.

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Fine, then scream "Stop It!" Hose them with Pepper Spray if you can. But as the person WITH A GUN, your options are much more limited, not expanded.

Just like a man who carries a gun can't respond to every punk that flips him the finger, you are charged as a gun carrier with a higher responsibility. If you step in there is a chance of a gun grab or a shooting where the wasn't before and it is not the responsibility of anyone else to realize this.

If the girl came to you and asked you to defend her then I agree completely, do it. You are defending a person from the pack. But suddenly noticing a fight and trying to sort out what is what in real time, where the penalty of a mistake is a shooting is insane.

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BrenTen wrote:

Fine, then scream "Stop It!" Hose them with Pepper Spray if you can. But as the person WITH A GUN, your options are much more limited, not expanded.

Just like a man who carries a gun can't respond to every punk that flips him the finger, you are charged as a gun carrier with a higher responsibility. If you step in there is a chance of a gun grab or a shooting where the wasn't before and it is not the responsibility of anyone else to realize this.

If the girl came to you and asked you to defend her then I agree completely, do it. You are defending a person from the pack. But suddenly noticing a fight and trying to sort out what is what in real time, where the penalty of a mistake is a shooting is insane.

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IT'S NOT ABOUT A "FIGHT" IT IS ABOUT A BRUTAL HEAD STOMPING, A GIRL GETTING KICKED REPEATEDLY IN THE HEAD ON THE GROUND DEFENSELESS WITH A MOB NEARBY. GOD DAMNIT. YOU DON'T HAVE TO FREAKIN SHOOT, BUT YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING AS A DAMN HUMAN BEING.

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So I watched the tape and the time that she was being kicked in the head was 5 seconds, more if you include the kicker walking away and then coming back. With a security guard literally standing over the girl.

Again, Scream STOP IT, hose them with pepper spray (though the Secuity guard will be pissed) but the time it went from a school yard punching to head kicking it WAS WAY TO SHORT FOR A GUN TO SOLVE ANYTHING.

I agree that someone should do something. If you want, stop carrying a gun so that if a situation happens again you can jump right in.

Not as a gun carrier

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BrenTen wrote:

So I watched the tape and the time that she was being kicked in the head was 5 seconds, more if you include the kicker walking away and then coming back. With a security guard literally standing over the girl.

Again, Scream STOP IT, hose them with pepper spray (though the Secuity guard will be pissed) but the time it went from a school yard punching to head kicking it WAS TO SHORT FOR A GUN TO SOLVE ANYTHING.

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Now you're playing hypocrite.

You agree with swatty boy.

swatty boy stated he would do nothing.

Now you say pepper spray a bitch.

Very contradicting, because swatty mentioned lawsuits, I am sure someone could file for damages from pepper spray. *facepalm*

What the rest of us reasonable people are trying to say is....

TAKE ACTION....we are not saying SHOOT A BITCH. We are saying stop gawking and being a pussy and DO SOMETHING because this girl is painfully begging for help in her head and probably (no audio so can't tell) yelling for it too.