View Poll Results: Concealed Carry Sausage Making Choices

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  • Open carry by permit only

    2 50.00%
  • All transfer by FFL unless family member

    2 50.00%
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Thread: Sausage Making

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    Legislation is always giving up to get. It's 3 AM in the morning on the last day to past legislation. A concealed carry bill is going to pass.

    To placate WAVE and the Milwaukee power elite, it has been agreed that one of the following will be included in the final bill.

    Whichof the following would you vote for to be INCLUDED in the final bill? No other choices, this has been agreed to in closed door party caucuses.

    1.A requirement that open carry is by permit only.

    2. A requirement that all firearm transfers will go through a FFL except if between family members. "Family" is defined as grandparents, parents, children, siblings.


    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

  2. #2
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    To give us a real-world choice, there should be a third option:

    3. Vote the bill down.

    Dave
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    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
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  3. #3
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    davegran wrote:
    To give us a real-world choice, there should be a third option:

    3. Vote the bill down.

    Dave
    +1, we should wait until the "undesirables" are out of office and out of power, then we may get some comprehensive concealedcarry bill.

  4. #4
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    Parabellum wrote:
    davegran wrote:
    To give us a real-world choice, there should be a third option:

    3. Vote the bill down.

    Dave
    +1, we should wait until the "undesirables" are out of office and out of power, then we may get some comprehensive concealedcarry bill.
    +2

  5. #5
    Regular Member Lurchiron's Avatar
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    hduc2005 wrote:
    Parabellum wrote:
    davegran wrote:
    To give us a real-world choice, there should be a third option:

    3. Vote the bill down.

    Dave
    +1, we should wait until the "undesirables" are out of office and out of power, then we may get some comprehensive concealedcarry bill.
    +2
    +3
    Bale da Hay

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    Within the gates before a man shall go,
    (Fully warily let him watch,)
    Full long let him look about him;
    For little he knows where a foe may lurk,
    And sit in the seats within.

    Havamal (Bellows translation)

  6. #6
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    Surprise surprise. This is just what we heard from our German Gauleiter Gene

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/38001.html

  7. #7
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    Parabellum wrote:
    davegran wrote:
    To give us a real-world choice, there should be a third option:

    3. Vote the bill down.

    Dave
    +1, we should wait until the "undesirables" are out of office and out of power, then we may get some comprehensive concealedcarry bill.
    That's going to take one heck of a grass roots effort - concealed carry with few/no strings - especially with what appears to be a growingconcensus that there will be a CC bill. Who is going to be at the table representing "no compromise" and what will they represent in $$ andvotes to persuade a legislator dependent on both.


    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

  8. #8
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    I don't see how a "open carry by permit only" statute would survive a challenge in the court--- unless they change the law to say you can conceal carry without a permit.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  9. #9
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    Shotgun wrote:
    I don't see how a "open carry by permit only" statute would survive a challenge in the court--- unless they change the law to say you can conceal carry without a permit.
    Maybe, if the right granted by the state constitution is interpeted to be unconditional. No laws regarding the use of firearms for hunting?

    Who has the deep pockets fundsuch a challenge? The NRA? Not if they were "seated at the table."

    Minnesota, whose laws are often researched when drafting Wisconsin legislation,requires permitted open carry.

    http://www.leg.state.mn.us/lrl/issues/firearmcarry.asp

    Minnesota does not have RKBA provision intheir constitution.

    http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/beararms/statecon.htm
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

  10. #10
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    Remember, the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled in Hamdan that the State must permit a manner of carry or yield to the constitutional amendment Article I section 25. It also said the state can not pass laws that totally eviscerate the amendment. That means the state must allow either concealed carry, open carry or both. Whichever manner the state sanctions must be free of permit, fees or mandatory traing. If any of those actions are employed the right turns into a privilege. If theconcealed manner of carry is prohibited and open carry turns into a privilege, or vice versa,the amendment becomes eviscerated, there is no longer a right to carry. In Hamdan the WSC ruled the the state has the authority to only regulate the time, place and manner of carry under the breadth of Article I section 25.In both Hamdan and Cole the WSC made it clear that the issue of the constitutionality of 941.23 was that it regulated the manner of carry and not the right to carry. Open carry still allowed a manner to exercise the right to keep and bear arms. (my comment)

    Our options:

    1. Declare concealed carry prohibition statute 941.23 unconstitutional and allowmanner of carry at the discretion of the carrier. One state supreme court justice has voiced his opinion in both Cole and Hamdan that 941.23 is unconstitutional. Patrick Crooks.

    2. Continue to exercise our right to open carry and promote an optional privilege to conceal carry, with all its mandatory training, fees and restrictions, for those that would prefer that manner of carry.

    3. Reverse item 2 and make concealed carry a right and sacrifice open carry to a privilege by requiring a permit and/or fees and/or mandatory training.

    I may be a "hard "butt"" but for me the only option is item 1, admittingly a hard sell.

    A permit for open carry, with fees, and training, may be acceptable if it is for the express purpose of reciprocity and not an infringement on the right to open carry.

    My opinion.





  11. #11
    McX
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    permit equals regulation on their terms, and taxation.

  12. #12
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    No Compromise OCW?CCW Non- Permitted System

    Support nothing less because come March 2, 2010 it will be very possible!

    AK/VT at last!

    Stand Strong
    Carry ON!

  13. #13
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    Flipper wrote:
    Legislation is always giving up to get. It's 3 AM in the morning on the last day to past legislation. A concealed carry bill is going to pass.

    To placate WAVE and the Milwaukee power elite, it has been agreed that one of the following will be included in the final bill.

    Whichof the following would you vote for to be INCLUDED in the final bill? No other choices, this has been agreed to in closed door party caucuses.

    1.A requirement that open carry is by permit only.

    2. A requirement that all firearm transfers will go through a FFL except if between family members. "Family" is defined as grandparents, parents, children, siblings.

    I thnk we need to know more - what about off limits areas? Will permit holders be bale to carry openly or concealed in vehicles, school zones, alcohol serving restaurants, government buildings, etc?

    If so, then a shall issue permit scheme would be such a huge step forward that requiring a license to open carry might be an acceptable price to pay for these gains.

    Private transfer ban is somthing that is not germaine to the issue of carry and should be opposed at all costs.

  14. #14
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    So all private gun sales must be made at an FFL holder's place of bussness? No thank you, what's next,All private car sales must be brought to a dealer before the sale?Y'know, evenif this does pass, i'm sure the criminals areimmeadiately going to stop selling/trading guns to eachother right? :?

    Altho, honestly so long as I am not charged extra or ANY amount to do the sale there, I have to say this is the lesser of two evils.
    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

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    J.Gleason wrote:
    No Compromise OCW?CCW Non- Permitted System

    Support nothing less because come March 2, 2010 it will be very possible!

    AK/VT at last!

    Stand Strong
    Carry ON!
    While you are there pick me up a unicorn.....



    I really want a unicorn

  16. #16
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    How about if you're eighteen and don't have any guns yet? Where is the equity for them having to suck up to the state?


  17. #17
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    SprayAndPray wrote:
    J.Gleason wrote:
    No Compromise OCW?CCW Non- Permitted System

    Support nothing less because come March 2, 2010 it will be very possible!

    AK/VT at last!

    Stand Strong
    Carry ON!
    While you are there pick me up a unicorn.....



    I really want a unicorn
    I guess we will see after March 2nd won't we?

  18. #18
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    I know I don't have any skin in the game since I am not a resident of the state but I'll add my comments since it seems everyone in the civil rights community has an eye on where Wisconsin will land as it could affect how other states react.

    At first my thought was to take option 3, let the bill die. If those are our choices to get concealed carry then the status quo is preferred.

    After reading some of the comments I had to switch to option 1, open carry by permit only. The courts have ruled that the law can only regulate the manner of carry and may not regulate whether one may carry at all. If there is a law that requires a permit to carry openly then that would mean either that concealed carry without a permit is allowed or that the law will be struck down on constitutional grounds.

    If there is a bill that mandates a permit to carry openly then it must die except, perhaps, if the bill allowed unlicensed concealed carry. I'm not sure that is even an acceptable trade since it has been shown in other states that "concealed" is open to interpretation. An officer can claim open carry if they see so much as a tip of a holster, a flash of a pistol grip from a partially opened coat, or a print of an outline on a shirt.

    Oh, and never EVER allow the government to require all transfers to go through a FFL. All that does is create a firearm registry of all law abiding gun owners.

    I've seen hints that Wisconsin does want concealed carry from both sides. The gun grabbers don't want people getting the idea that they are even allowed to carry a weapon, out of sight is out of mind. The civil rights activists don't want the government telling them how they can carry. Accept nothing less than unlicensed carry, open or concealed.

  19. #19
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    Exactly, A no compromise, non-permitted system.
    Once you agree to permits you have turned your right inot a privilege that can be taken away at any time for any reason.

    No compromise, non-permitted system.

    Stand strong and Carry On!


  20. #20
    Regular Member Lurchiron's Avatar
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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Exactly, A no compromise, non-permitted system.
    Once you agree to permits you have turned your right inot a privilege that can be taken away at any time for any reason.

    No compromise, non-permitted system.

    Stand strong and Carry On!
    +1
    Bale da Hay

    "Have you Spanked a leftist today; it's the Right thing to do!!!"


    Within the gates before a man shall go,
    (Fully warily let him watch,)
    Full long let him look about him;
    For little he knows where a foe may lurk,
    And sit in the seats within.

    Havamal (Bellows translation)

  21. #21
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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Exactly, A no compromise, non-permitted system.
    Once you agree to permits you have turned your right inot a privilege that can be taken away at any time for any reason.

    No compromise, non-permitted system.

    Stand strong and Carry On!
    +2
    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  22. #22
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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Exactly, A no compromise, non-permitted system.
    Once you agree to permits you have turned your right inot a privilege that can be taken away at any time for any reason.

    No compromise, non-permitted system.

    Stand strong and Carry On!

    So if we have shall issue CCW permits , and retain unpermitted open carry. and you lose your CCW permit (generally only happens under felony conviction in shall issue states , but we will play to the audiance and ignore that fact for this instance).... What would stop you from Open carrying again? (assuming you did not get a felony conviction)

    I must be missing a piece of the puzzle......



    I would LOVE Alaska Style carry , But it is not going to happen right off the bat.... Hell it didn't happen in ALASKA right off the bat, and they are a might bit Redder then we are.

    Working against a permit system while holding out for Alaska carry is counterproductive. I truely believe there are members of the Brady bunch working against CCW using EXACTLY this scenario pretending to be pro gun but demanding a completely unpermitted system right off the bat , KNOWING they are asking for the unattainable.

    Denouncing any progress and generally letting perfect be the enemy of better DOes not get us anywhere.We lost our gun rights in baby steps, and that is how we will get them back. Looking for all or nothing, gets you nothing every time.


  23. #23
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    J.Gleason wrote:
    SprayAndPray wrote:
    J.Gleason wrote:
    No Compromise OCW?CCW Non- Permitted System

    Support nothing less because come March 2, 2010 it will be very possible!

    AK/VT at last!

    Stand Strong
    Carry ON!
    While you are there pick me up a unicorn.....



    I really want a unicorn
    I guess we will see after March 2nd won't we?



    Oh yeah.... care to wager?



    Put your money where your mouth is , so to speak?


  24. #24
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    J.Gleason wrote:
    No Compromise OCW?CCW Non- Permitted System

    Support nothing less because come March 2, 2010 it will be very possible!

    AK/VT at last!

    Stand Strong
    Carry ON!
    What exactly about a decision in our favor will compel the move to a AK type system??? The incorporation of the 2A will not negate all current gun laws. :?

  25. #25
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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    J.Gleason wrote:
    No Compromise OCW?CCW Non- Permitted System

    Support nothing less because come March 2, 2010 it will be very possible!

    AK/VT at last!

    Stand Strong
    Carry ON!
    What exactly about a decision in our favor will compel the move to a AK type system??? The incorporation of the 2A will not negate all current gun laws. :?
    There are a couple cases on hold in California as well as the recently decided Palmer case in D.C. that will probably result in open carry without a permit nationwide within a couple years if we get incorporation. If we win big with incorporation under the P&I clause the open carry argument will probably get settled quicker than if it's only due process, mostly because P&I would make strict scrutiny a slam dunk.

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