Draw Or No Draw

McX · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

It's going to be a long winter. I'll throw an idea to talk about. After all that's what we come here for, to learn, to share, to have a plan. The young ones might benefit from the discussions, they got the gun, now they need input. Anyone is welcome, we can take the discussion beyond the parameter, but I thought the simple decision is alot to talk about. Someone else has to come up with a scenario sometimes, so we can keep this going. Cheaper training in thought for alot of us broke, who can't pay someone fancy.
Ideas; Like, your standing at the counter of your favorite apu store. 3 punks come in, and see you carrying. One hoodie stops, and lifts his shirt to show you his concealed firearm. He is probably a felon. He doesn't go for the gun, but aint moving either. Draw or no draw?

Master Doug Huffman · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

The common law elements of self-defense are four; 1) Be innocent of instigation (YEP), 2) Be in reasonable fear of great bodily harm (NOPE), 3) Use sufficient force only to deliver oneself from harm (N/A NOPE), 4) Attempt to withdraw (YEP).

One NOPE outweighs a thousand atta-boys. Keep it in your pants.

Interceptor_Knight · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

McX wrote:

It's going to be a long winter. I'll throw an idea to talk about. After all that's what we come here for, to learn, to share, to have a plan. The young ones might benefit from the discussions, they got the gun, now they need input. Anyone is welcome, we can take the discussion beyond the parameter, but I thought the simple decision is alot to talk about. Someone else has to come up with a scenario sometimes, so we can keep this going. Cheaper training in thought for alot of us broke, who can't pay someone fancy.
Ideas; Like, your standing at the counter of your favorite apu store. 3 punks come in, and see you carrying. One hoodie stops, and lifts his shirt to show you his concealed firearm. He is probably a felon. He doesn't go for the gun, but aint moving either. Draw or no draw?

You may not legally draw.

According to WI Statutes, you may not defend property with deadly force. Maybe he is just showing off his handgun and showing you that he is also carrying.

Wisconsin has replaced "common" law with Statutes. The applicable Statutes for Self Defense are: 939.48 and 939.49.

http://www.legis.state.wi.us/statutes/stat0939.pdf

[align=left]

939.49 Defense of property and protection against retail theft. (1)

A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with the person’s property. Only such degree of force or threat thereof may intentionally be used as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. It is not reasonable to intentionally use force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm for the sole purpose of defense of one’s property.

[/align]

McX · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

valuable input, next one; your walking down the sidewalk, not the best neighborhood. you hear shots not too far behind you. 2 guys come running down the sidewalk at you, they're still a fair distance away, both have guns out. they haven't noticed you yet, but they are on their way, with ill intent towards each other. Draw or no draw?

Master Doug Huffman · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

No draw.

The principle is that there must be no hesitation between drawing and shooting.

Common law is not "replaced" by statute law. Common law is our historic, traditional, and de facto law. Thank you for not interrupting with off topic bullsnit.

McX · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

This one might be kinda already set, but i heard of it on the forum somewhere, and thought it was good enough to catilog here; your at a party. your not drinking, your carrying. some loser thinks he's going to impress everyone, and pulls a knife on you, he's close enough to strike, but hasn't yet. But he is getting more belligerent, and more loud, waving the blade about. The sheeple are all frozen, no help there. he's now bragging he's can cut you up like a steak dinner. Draw or no draw?

Fatch · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

No Draw again. Once more, there must be no hesitation between a draw and a shot. You never draw to threaten.

Interceptor_Knight · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

Master Doug Huffman wrote:

No draw.

The principle is that there must be no hesitation between drawing and shooting.

Common law is not "replaced" by statute law. Common law is our historic, traditional, and de facto law. Thank you for not interrupting with off topic bullsnit.

Since thereare specific statutes addressing the matter at hand, your actions and the prosecution of them are regulated by WI Statutes. A current Statute holds authority over "common" law. It is only defacto until it is superceded.No reason to get pissy as it is not off topic. Your getting pissy is taking it off topic.

[qute]OCDO Rule

7) If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.[/quote]

Interceptor_Knight · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

McX wrote:

valuable input, next one; your walking down the sidewalk, not the best neighborhood. you hear shots not too far behind you. 2 guys come running down the sidewalk at you, they're still a fair distance away, both have guns out. they haven't noticed you yet, but they are on their way, with ill intent towards each other. Draw or no draw?

No draw. You said it yourself... "they're still a fair distance away"... That means that you have the opportunity for escape and you are not currently in danger of losing your life or of receiving great bodily harm...

Interceptor_Knight · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

McX wrote:

This one might be kinda already set, but i heard of it on the forum somewhere, and thought it was good enough to catilog here; your at a party. your not drinking, your carrying. some loser thinks he's going to impress everyone, and pulls a knife on you, he's close enough to strike, but hasn't yet. But he is getting more belligerent, and more loud, waving the blade about. The sheeple are all frozen, no help there. he's now bragging he's can cut you up like a steak dinner. Draw or no draw?

Draw..........

Under 21 feet with a deadly weapon threatening to use it. He is waving it around which places you in danger of immenant death. If once you draw, he "withdraws from the fight", you may not use deadly force unless his actions require you to act in defense of a third person who is in danger of immenant death or bodily harm.

You may be responsible if you fire and hit a 3rd person. You could expect to be charged:

if the unintended infliction of harm amounts to the crime of first−degree or 2nd−degree reckless homicide, homicide by negligent handling of dangerous weapon, explosives or fire, first−degree or 2nd−degree reckless injury or injury by negligent handling of dangerous weapon, explosives or fire,

Click to expand...

Interceptor_Knight · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

Fatch wrote:

...Once more, there must be no hesitation between a draw and a shot. You never draw to threaten.

I disagree. You are under no obligation to shoot someone after you draw your firearm. If the simple act of "drawing down" causes the threat to stop, you should not shoot. You may use the threat of deadly force legally for self defense in WI.

http://www.legis.state.wi.us/statutes/stat0939.pdf

This is not to say that you should draw if you are not prepared to fire. You most definitely have no business carrying a firearm openly or otherwise unless you are fully prepared to use it both physically and mentally/emotionally.

Yooper · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

Interceptor_Knight wrote:

McX wrote:

This one might be kinda already set, but i heard of it on the forum somewhere, and thought it was good enough to catilog here; your at a party. your not drinking, your carrying. some loser thinks he's going to impress everyone, and pulls a knife on you, he's close enough to strike, but hasn't yet. But he is getting more belligerent, and more loud, waving the blade about. The sheeple are all frozen, no help there. he's now bragging he's can cut you up like a steak dinner. Draw or no draw?

Click to expand...

Draw..........

Under 21 feet with a deadly weapon threatening to use it. He is waving it around which places you in danger of immenant death. If once you draw, he "withdraws from the fight", you may not use deadly force unless his actions require you to act in defense of a third person who is in danger of immenant death or bodily harm.

I agree...depending on the circumstances. If I'm in the position where I am close to a door, and can make my way there to try and escape, I'd LEAN towards no draw, but if I was in a position where there was no way out, then definitely draw.

This is where self defense training (non firearm) would be beneficial to those who carry. If you knew how to defend yourself against a knife attack, it would give you an additional "tool" to use.

Interceptor_Knight · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

Yooper wrote:

I agree...depending on the circumstances. If I'm in the position where I am close to a door, and can make my way there to try and escape, I'd LEAN towards no draw, but if I was in a position where there was no way out, then definitely draw.

This is where self defense training (non firearm) would be beneficial to those who carry. If you knew how to defend yourself against a knife attack, it would give you an additional "tool" to use.

Distance is the best defense against a knife attack. A single stab can be a fatal wound. Hand to hand type defense for a knife attack is only for when you have no other choice. Use it until you have the opportunity to draw down. Open/empty handdefense training should be considered a personal necessity for anyone who is carrying a firearm as well as everyone else also if you wish to effectively defend yourself and your loved ones.

McX · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

this is getting good. you guys are better than anything on tv. i'll leave a few for the 2nd shift, and 3rd shift crowd.

your in a parkinglot, broad daylight, come out of the grocery store, putting the bags in the trunk. your carrying. there's a guy you checked out, kitty corner to you, 2 or 3 cars away. looks like he's changing his tire. your doing your bit, and you feel 'something', so you turn. your lucky, and still holding a bag of groceries, but he has a tire iron, and that hits the bag of groceries, this time, and the bag and contents go flying. now he's reared back, and is going to strike again, probable target your head. draw or no draw?

your out for a walk at dusk. your carrying. the period of long shadows. your walking down the sidewalk, and 2 guys pass you, splitting as they pass. one big one small. suddenly you get tugged backwards, you go down on your back. smack your head pretty good. the blood on the sidewalk is yours. your lying on your back. the small guy kicks you in the left arm. it goes numb. but you get lucky, he sees your gun, and takes off running down the street. your not so lucky with the big guy. he sees your gun, and thinks screw the wallet, i'm going for the gun. he's lining up to deliver a field goal to your left side, probably turning a rib into something inside of you you need. you got 3 seconds max. draw or no draw?

McX · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

one last one; your at apu's again. your carrying. your back by the coolers, checking out the beverages. clerk is at the counter. some thug rushes in, sticks a gun in the poor clerk's face, open the cash register, or i'll blow you away. the clerk is shaking, and trying to open the register. the scumbag takes a moment to look around, and now he's zeroed in on you. he's going to be making a decision here, the gun is on the clerk, but his eyes are on you. draw or no draw?

Landose_theghost · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

Wait for the the tumbleweed to pass by, and then ask him if he feels lucky...:lol:

No but seriously, this is one event when a person ccw would have an atvantage. I personally wouldn't draw for fear that I may hit the clerk.(i'm a damn good shot, but c'mon,given the circumstances I'd wait for a better opportunity)

McX · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

i dont' know do i get to comment on my own stuff? the guy at the party, i would split on in great haste. he didn't advance, but had intent. knife vs gun shows to me excessive force if i pull. time to go! if he advances, i'd draw, but still be in full retreat, heading out the door. subtext; i go with the idea of draw as an option to extricate myself from crap without having to actually shoot anyone.

the guys who are coming down the sidewalk, guns out. if i have time, ding dong ditch, become a tree or something, that or crouch and draw, maybe they'll go one side or the other, not straight at me. either way, they have the advantage, they have their firearms out already, i'd better do something!

at apu's, down to the floor i go, and draw, not my fight, protect my selfish self.

the hoodie punk brandishing? not my fight, out the door i go.

the last 2; intent to do me serious injury demostrated, one instance; firearm retention issue, both circumstances draw!

Lurchiron · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

McX wrote:

this is getting good. you guys are better than anything on tv. i'll leave a few for the 2nd shift, and 3rd shift crowd.

your in a parkinglot, broad daylight, come out of the grocery store, putting the bags in the trunk. your carrying. there's a guy you checked out, kitty corner to you, 2 or 3 cars away. looks like he's changing his tire. your doing your bit, and you feel 'something', so you turn. your lucky, and still holding a bag of groceries, but he has a tire iron, and that hits the bag of groceries, this time, and the bag and contents go flying. now he's reared back, and is going to strike again, probable target your head. draw or no draw?

your out for a walk at dusk. your carrying. the period of long shadows. your walking down the sidewalk, and 2 guys pass you, splitting as they pass. one big one small. suddenly you get tugged backwards, you go down on your back. smack your head pretty good. the blood on the sidewalk is yours. your lying on your back. the small guy kicks you in the left arm. it goes numb. but you get lucky, he sees your gun, and takes off running down the street. your not so lucky with the big guy. he sees your gun, and thinks screw the wallet, i'm going for the gun. he's lining up to deliver a field goal to your left side, probably turning a rib into something inside of you you need. you got 3 seconds max. draw or no draw?

Double draw; they both surpassed the deadly force threshold.

Lurchiron · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

McX wrote:

one last one; your at apu's again. your carrying. your back by the coolers, checking out the beverages. clerk is at the counter. some thug rushes in, sticks a gun in the poor clerk's face, open the cash register, or i'll blow you away. the clerk is shaking, and trying to open the register. the scumbag takes a moment to look around, and now he's zeroed in on you. he's going to be making a decision here, the gun is on the clerk, but his eyes are on you. draw or no draw?

Draw, maintain cover while advancing in an attempt to get him to either bolt from the premises; or get a good angle in order to clear the clerk from your line of fire.

McX · Feb 12, 2010

imported post

lurchiron, your a braver man than i. i'd go with, i have no police authority, therefor i can't do anything other than protect myself. my heart, and my head would be at odds during the entire event.

Draw Or No Draw

McX

Guest

Banned

Regular Member

McX

Guest

Banned

McX

Guest

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

McX

Guest

McX

Guest

Regular Member

McX

Guest

Regular Member

Regular Member

McX

Guest